listening in the dark
I have seen the measurement that Bill makes on his tubes first hand both pre cryo treatment and post treatment. They are by the way different. That aside I have heard the difference for myself. I would not opt for a non cryo anything. The only time that I do not use cryo parts is when they are too big to treat or just too expensive and those to reasons don't always stand in the way of a good cold bath in LN2. So be affraid be very affraid because something is happening and you don't know what it is. These cold sweats you are getting can usually be made to vanish with a simple listen to a cryo treated product. This is all so very boring these days and the attitudes are usually closed. So if you don't believe or if you don't want to find out don't call me to buy my cable as I cryo treat every single thing I make. I don't do this for nothing in fact it costs me big in time and money. I cryo treat because if I do not my product just will not sound as good. If that makes me a snake oil salesman in your mind then I am sorry for you only. If that is your attitude in life I am better off with you not in mine so that will screen out the trouble makers. I go so far as to offer to do this stuff for free for strangers who almost never get off thier duffs to send so much as a fuse. So where does that leave you folks so good at letter writting to forums about all the snake oil salespeople???? Best regards Moray James. PS: Dave you are a good guy and you don't deserve to have to keep dealing with this kind of non thinking. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him listen.
I have seen the measurement that Bill makes on his tubes first hand both pre cryo treatment and post treatment. They are by the way different. That aside I have heard the difference for myself. I would not opt for a non cryo anything. The only time that I do not use cryo parts is when they are too big to treat or just too expensive and those to reasons don't always stand in the way of a good cold bath in LN2. So be affraid be very affraid because something is happening and you don't know what it is. These cold sweats you are getting can usually be made to vanish with a simple listen to a cryo treated product. This is all so very boring these days and the attitudes are usually closed. So if you don't believe or if you don't want to find out don't call me to buy my cable as I cryo treat every single thing I make. I don't do this for nothing in fact it costs me big in time and money. I cryo treat because if I do not my product just will not sound as good. If that makes me a snake oil salesman in your mind then I am sorry for you only. If that is your attitude in life I am better off with you not in mine so that will screen out the trouble makers. I go so far as to offer to do this stuff for free for strangers who almost never get off thier duffs to send so much as a fuse. So where does that leave you folks so good at letter writting to forums about all the snake oil salespeople???? Best regards Moray James. PS: Dave you are a good guy and you don't deserve to have to keep dealing with this kind of non thinking. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him listen.
Not sure if this is related to tube cryo treatment but... Annealing toolsteel is not just a heat treatment, you have to cool it down after heating(roughly 250 degrees C for high-carbonsteel) to get the result you want. (well,, keeping it at 250 degrees is a little impractical) At roomtemp the change in molecular structure isn`t complete, cooling it down further is sometimes used to complete the prosess. Some toolmakers even cryo their toolsteel.
Regards,
Peter
Regards,
Peter
Dave: If you could give Bill a little nudge, I'd certainly like to do the before-and-after comparison. I built a nifty little jig for this which will look at changes in distortion spectra under mechanical excitation, but haven't seen the tubes yet.
Probably OK for the moment, since I've got some C37 to look at....
Probably OK for the moment, since I've got some C37 to look at....
Hey!
I really didnt think this would get so heated in some parts!--I posted what I consider (In the absence of any real TESTED evedence) a product which looks on the surface to be utter rip-off rubbish--Yes, his tubes may have gone through some severe testing, BUT does the freezing bit actually do anything??
(I wonder why Sy, who is looking to do some proper testing, hasnt received his test-tubes!!--Most interesting!)
The only real way for this to be proved before any reasonable doubt, would be a BEFORE and AFTER tests on say 10 tubes of the same make, type batch etc., after first having been burned in for say 100 hours, with a 'control' group not undergoing the freezing process but all the other testing/treatments.........
(Sounds like all that twaddle about Carbon Compo resistors and 50 dollar .1 uF caps sounding better to me--Just another rip-off in society aimed at the rich and usually stupid......... Be interesting to be PROVED wrong by INDEPENDENT testing.........)
I really didnt think this would get so heated in some parts!--I posted what I consider (In the absence of any real TESTED evedence) a product which looks on the surface to be utter rip-off rubbish--Yes, his tubes may have gone through some severe testing, BUT does the freezing bit actually do anything??
(I wonder why Sy, who is looking to do some proper testing, hasnt received his test-tubes!!--Most interesting!)
The only real way for this to be proved before any reasonable doubt, would be a BEFORE and AFTER tests on say 10 tubes of the same make, type batch etc., after first having been burned in for say 100 hours, with a 'control' group not undergoing the freezing process but all the other testing/treatments.........
(Sounds like all that twaddle about Carbon Compo resistors and 50 dollar .1 uF caps sounding better to me--Just another rip-off in society aimed at the rich and usually stupid......... Be interesting to be PROVED wrong by INDEPENDENT testing.........)
(Flame suit = on)
Personally,I think it's,ahem.."Overhyped".
I'm a serious skeptic -but I do like suprises!
Perhaps it -could- have some benefits..
Is there any -Hard Data- on the lifespan of cryo'd tubes?
Probably not.
Exactly. No -Hard Data- there either.I wonder why (seriously).
Mr BP seems pretty defensive.. Reminds me of 'some other' audio guys I know. Perhaps if he'd calm down and explain/back up what he's saying/claiming,there might be more people that would understand.
No need to get all Pi$$y -he's making a rather large claim,he should know that people will shoot him down untill there's atleast some kind of -evidence- to the contrary.
That's like saying I saw a UFO,people will think I'm nuts (and i'd -expect- them to!),untill they can see/touch it for themselves. People want proof...
Okay,so I guess opinion will have to do for now..
But who can afford to "try it themselves" when the tubes cost 200x more than any sane person would pay?
Nobody can afford to form an opinion. -and the guys that can,are already considered "nuts' for paying so much for a $10 tube in the first place.. (no disrespect guys,but i'm a poor college-age kid!)
That said,Who knows,maybe I'll give it a shot,but Mr BP might have already lost my business before he gained it.
What a friendly chap,and such wonderful customer service!
With such a wonderful spokesman,no wonder people are shooting holes through it.
Instead of spouting off his mouth,and insulting -potential customers- he should STFU,and present some DATA,to support his cause. Numbers man,Numbers.
So far,short of a couple testimonies,he's got nothin.
What,does he expect that people WON'T have questions?
Once again,he's making a rather large claim, OF COURSE people are gonna have questions and be skeptical...duh?
(once again,back to ET's and UFO's)
Wouldn't you have questions if I said I shook ET's hand?
"What's it feel like,is it slimey?"
Once again..I'd *expect* you to have questions,and if I cared about my reputation,I'd atleast TRY to be polite in my answers.
Who's gonna believe a crumuddgeon who won't say anything other than "I'm gonna kick your @$$!"
I'm still willing to give cryo'd tubes a try,but I think i'll be finding them from a different source.
HA!.. Not from me,"spud".
I think your credibility just dropped 2-3 more points on this end.
Personally,I think it's,ahem.."Overhyped".
I'm a serious skeptic -but I do like suprises!
Perhaps it -could- have some benefits..
Is there any -Hard Data- on the lifespan of cryo'd tubes?
Probably not.
Exactly. No -Hard Data- there either.I wonder why (seriously).
Mr BP seems pretty defensive.. Reminds me of 'some other' audio guys I know. Perhaps if he'd calm down and explain/back up what he's saying/claiming,there might be more people that would understand.
No need to get all Pi$$y -he's making a rather large claim,he should know that people will shoot him down untill there's atleast some kind of -evidence- to the contrary.
That's like saying I saw a UFO,people will think I'm nuts (and i'd -expect- them to!),untill they can see/touch it for themselves. People want proof...
Okay,so I guess opinion will have to do for now..
But who can afford to "try it themselves" when the tubes cost 200x more than any sane person would pay?
Nobody can afford to form an opinion. -and the guys that can,are already considered "nuts' for paying so much for a $10 tube in the first place.. (no disrespect guys,but i'm a poor college-age kid!)
That said,Who knows,maybe I'll give it a shot,but Mr BP might have already lost my business before he gained it.
What a friendly chap,and such wonderful customer service!
With such a wonderful spokesman,no wonder people are shooting holes through it.
Instead of spouting off his mouth,and insulting -potential customers- he should STFU,and present some DATA,to support his cause. Numbers man,Numbers.
So far,short of a couple testimonies,he's got nothin.
What,does he expect that people WON'T have questions?
Once again,he's making a rather large claim, OF COURSE people are gonna have questions and be skeptical...duh?
(once again,back to ET's and UFO's)
Wouldn't you have questions if I said I shook ET's hand?
"What's it feel like,is it slimey?"
Once again..I'd *expect* you to have questions,and if I cared about my reputation,I'd atleast TRY to be polite in my answers.
Who's gonna believe a crumuddgeon who won't say anything other than "I'm gonna kick your @$$!"
I'm still willing to give cryo'd tubes a try,but I think i'll be finding them from a different source.
HA!.. Not from me,"spud".
I think your credibility just dropped 2-3 more points on this end.
Re: Please post this . . . and then i'm done
I am sorry to say this, but this sort of reply was, to say the least, unexpected, and if nothing else, undermines BP credibility on grounds of civilised conduct.
Far be it from me to doubt his credentials, but there is a difference in offering them in a more leisurly manner, or hammering them down someone's throat just because he is, and I might add, given the number of charlatans, rightfully so, 'a dobting Thomas', having seen nothing but sales talk on the website. Instead of coming off as an expert in the field (which he probably is), BP comes off as another offended 'sacred cow' of audio, which there are already far too many of. I am very sorry to have ever seen such a post on this forum.
But I do have to ask one question: since the nice pictures of the p[rocess on BPs site show so many measuring instruments, it is obvious that there is a scientiffic approach to this - so WHY was it so difficult to take a tube - ANY tube - and show us before and after measurements going through the whole process? Wouldn't that be a GREAT way to shut up all the dobting Thomases, and very likely, a way to gain more customers, not to mention, educate the members of this forum, than this sort of holier than thou 'I've been involved in tubes before you were even a glimmer in your parents eyes' post???
Please note that I am in no way trying to discredit BPs process or claims, but IMHO his marketing leaves something to be desired - especially since he is not the only one to offer cryo treatment - so it would stand to reason that what his site says, should help his potential customers to chose him over the charlatans (and I am sure he'll be the first one to say there are plenty). 'Buy it at 10-80 times the price and listen for yourself' would be a good reason for me not to use his services even if i was prepared to spend that money - I am sure people here would not go with that policy even if they were buying chewing gum, no matter how good it turned out to be. If the product is so good, then it should be no problem to offer a guarantee - maybe some sort of 'buy back' offer?
planet10 said:
I am sorry to say this, but this sort of reply was, to say the least, unexpected, and if nothing else, undermines BP credibility on grounds of civilised conduct.
Far be it from me to doubt his credentials, but there is a difference in offering them in a more leisurly manner, or hammering them down someone's throat just because he is, and I might add, given the number of charlatans, rightfully so, 'a dobting Thomas', having seen nothing but sales talk on the website. Instead of coming off as an expert in the field (which he probably is), BP comes off as another offended 'sacred cow' of audio, which there are already far too many of. I am very sorry to have ever seen such a post on this forum.
But I do have to ask one question: since the nice pictures of the p[rocess on BPs site show so many measuring instruments, it is obvious that there is a scientiffic approach to this - so WHY was it so difficult to take a tube - ANY tube - and show us before and after measurements going through the whole process? Wouldn't that be a GREAT way to shut up all the dobting Thomases, and very likely, a way to gain more customers, not to mention, educate the members of this forum, than this sort of holier than thou 'I've been involved in tubes before you were even a glimmer in your parents eyes' post???
Please note that I am in no way trying to discredit BPs process or claims, but IMHO his marketing leaves something to be desired - especially since he is not the only one to offer cryo treatment - so it would stand to reason that what his site says, should help his potential customers to chose him over the charlatans (and I am sure he'll be the first one to say there are plenty). 'Buy it at 10-80 times the price and listen for yourself' would be a good reason for me not to use his services even if i was prepared to spend that money - I am sure people here would not go with that policy even if they were buying chewing gum, no matter how good it turned out to be. If the product is so good, then it should be no problem to offer a guarantee - maybe some sort of 'buy back' offer?
^^^
My point exactly. Offer up something to get people to believe,instead of just asking for them to buy something "just to see" if they like it,all the while acting all "High and Mighty".
It smells of Snake Oil,with a bit of Ego Grease on the side.
I'm not trying to undermine anyone,I'm just saying without somekind of evidence to support his claims,he looks like a "nut" that's just after your money. His word against your dollar.
My point exactly. Offer up something to get people to believe,instead of just asking for them to buy something "just to see" if they like it,all the while acting all "High and Mighty".
It smells of Snake Oil,with a bit of Ego Grease on the side.
I'm not trying to undermine anyone,I'm just saying without somekind of evidence to support his claims,he looks like a "nut" that's just after your money. His word against your dollar.
cooling steel to -185 transforms austentite to martentite -- which doesn't splinter as readily --
i spent a summer as a lab rat doing research with liquid nitrogen, liquid hydrogen -- this was very early "super-conducting" stuff and my job was purely grunt work (except that I was able to make PLL's with 12ax7's and a very good amplifier for getting signals out of a snowy environment).
i spent a summer as a lab rat doing research with liquid nitrogen, liquid hydrogen -- this was very early "super-conducting" stuff and my job was purely grunt work (except that I was able to make PLL's with 12ax7's and a very good amplifier for getting signals out of a snowy environment).
I must admit that I am one of those people who have a negative opinion, without actually testing the product. I am in the position to actually electrically test such a product, but I am NOT in the position to test it form a financial standpoint. Many of my complete amplifiers cost me less than a pair of treated tubes.
As I have stated on my web site, If you ARE in the position to afford these things, AND you believe that they will improve your system, then by all means BUY them. They might actually make a difference. Sometimes the difference is psychoacoustic, you spent big bucks, so of course it sounds better.
For those of us who build amplifiers on a limited budget, the money is probably best spent on OPT's, and other parts upgrades. If you have money left over after your amp is finished, and working well, then think about some special tubes. Whether you just try a better version of what you are using now, or treated tubes, is up to you. I will spend my money on parts for my next amp, because I like to build them.
I would try treated tubes, before I would even think about Shakti Stones or mega - dollar power cords, but I don't think I will be trying any of these things unless I win the lottery.
As I have stated on my web site, If you ARE in the position to afford these things, AND you believe that they will improve your system, then by all means BUY them. They might actually make a difference. Sometimes the difference is psychoacoustic, you spent big bucks, so of course it sounds better.
For those of us who build amplifiers on a limited budget, the money is probably best spent on OPT's, and other parts upgrades. If you have money left over after your amp is finished, and working well, then think about some special tubes. Whether you just try a better version of what you are using now, or treated tubes, is up to you. I will spend my money on parts for my next amp, because I like to build them.
I would try treated tubes, before I would even think about Shakti Stones or mega - dollar power cords, but I don't think I will be trying any of these things unless I win the lottery.
There is plenty of clear scientific data to demonstrate why a typical tube amplifier will sound DIFFERENT than a typical solid state amplifier. This has as much to do with the circuit design (and feedback scheme) than it does with the choice of active devices.
The "better" part has a lot to do with personal taste and the type of material played through the amp. The home theater "wall shakers" and the people who drive "boom boom" cars are not too thrilled with the sound of vacuum tubes. I have loaned some of them a tube amp, and they gave it back, and decided to "just say no" My Fisher solid state home theater amp has been in the warehouse for about ten years, I decided to "just say no".
The "better" part has a lot to do with personal taste and the type of material played through the amp. The home theater "wall shakers" and the people who drive "boom boom" cars are not too thrilled with the sound of vacuum tubes. I have loaned some of them a tube amp, and they gave it back, and decided to "just say no" My Fisher solid state home theater amp has been in the warehouse for about ten years, I decided to "just say no".
PING Sy
Sy: I think that I have offered before so consider this a standing offer if Bill is too busy to get to some tubes I can and will be happy to treat them for you n/c it's Christmas time.
As for the "Spuds" out there well I guess that you don't read the posts on the thread or hear the tone of the words nor the unfounded accusations in them. You do this stuff for ten or fifteen years and have to spend all that time "peeling spud's" I am sure you will find yourself running short on good will to all who choose to be abusive. Readers and moderators alike. So many people who have fine ears and skills have been impressed and they continue to share with others perhaps you will take the time and effort to experience for yourself and find outhow important this business really is. Regards Moray James.
Sy: I think that I have offered before so consider this a standing offer if Bill is too busy to get to some tubes I can and will be happy to treat them for you n/c it's Christmas time.
As for the "Spuds" out there well I guess that you don't read the posts on the thread or hear the tone of the words nor the unfounded accusations in them. You do this stuff for ten or fifteen years and have to spend all that time "peeling spud's" I am sure you will find yourself running short on good will to all who choose to be abusive. Readers and moderators alike. So many people who have fine ears and skills have been impressed and they continue to share with others perhaps you will take the time and effort to experience for yourself and find outhow important this business really is. Regards Moray James.
That is no excuse. Go to the previous page and read what BP wrote, and compare with Carl Sagan's Baloney Detection Kit:
My handle on this forum is not "Somebody or other", it's "Miles Prower". This dismissiveness as if I am so far beneath contempt that he won't even address me properly is an ad hominem. That's the very first sentence. I do believe that he has committed almost every fallacy of logic and rhetoric that the Baloney Detection Kit mentions, and then some. If this little performance is intended to instill confidence, it fails miserably. Why does he do that when it should be so simple to clarify this whole issue with some data? It seems that there is no data to back up these extraordinary claims, and therefore, no tolerance for any criticism whatsoever.
Having "fine skills" is no guarantee that one can not be fooled. A great many fine scientists have, indeed, been fooled by fake psychics, much to their embarrassment. Indeed, the fraudulant psychic or stage magician, have often said that scientists are easier to fool. If I took your suggestion to "experience for yourself" each and every item that came down the pike with grandiose claims -- the $500.00 volume control knobs, the $7000 volume control, the $1000/ft magical cables, the $300.00 "special" power cords, the "magic stones", the "miracle paints", etc. and ad infinitum I'd've gone broke a dozen times over.
I am not going to "just believe" on either BP's say-so, or anyone else's. Call it closed-mindedness, call it intolerance, frankly I don't care and will not be intimidated from applying a little critical thinking now and then. Open mindedness is a good thing unless you take it to the point that your brains fall out.
Miles Prower said:
Mr Prower, I couldnt have put it better myself!
All these Miracle devices promacing all-sorts--Just like those magnets you are supposed to get an extra 10 MPG if you clip them to your fuel-lines!--Total hogwash!
Being into alternative fuels, and currently running my vehicles on Vegetable-oils, I am a member of a few Forums dealing with BioDiesel and Vegetable oils as engine fuels, so I get so see my fair-share of 'Magic' in the form of additives, magnets, stones Not to mention the 1% white-Spirit ploy! and all sorts of other balony, like you wouldnt believe!
Rather surprised at the venomous attacks this guy has made, instead of maybe even a little tiny bit of hard data to back up his wild claims--Sounds like a guilty concience to me..........
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