How many amps with 845 in SE do you know that give 10-12W amp into nominal 8 ohm load (at 8 ohm tap) running at 100W plate dissipation +32VA filament? And it's still far from a true constant voltage source. Not practical.
No, it depends! If you maximize the power into 8R, as typical, it won't give more power at reasonable destortion into lower load (4-5 ohm, for instance). So you have to give up efficiency which is already low considering heaters or filaments....
*sigh*
OP, what are your goals? What kind of music to you expect to listen to?
Do you want the music to sound the way it does live, or do you prefer to "color" it with a pleasing tint?
Do you believe in myth?
These are all questions you should think about before you make a decision about what equipment you intend to get to listen to music with. There are many people that have a personal investment in getting their systems to sound a certain way, and they truly believe that it sounds "better" that way. Is it an accurate representation of the live music captured during the performance? Well, um, maybe.... and maybe not.
A good tube amplifier and a good solid-state amplifier sound so much alike that most people can't tell in a blind test. Everybody can tell if they know beforehand which amp they are listening to. We call that "listener bias". People that change interconnects and "hear" a "bid difference" typically find that when they do not know which is in place, they can no longer tell.... Same for amps and pre-amps. Not so for speakers.
My philosophy based on 40 years experience is, "pick your speakers, and get enough power to drive them". Simple. No bull, and no myth.
OP, what are your goals? What kind of music to you expect to listen to?
Do you want the music to sound the way it does live, or do you prefer to "color" it with a pleasing tint?
Do you believe in myth?
These are all questions you should think about before you make a decision about what equipment you intend to get to listen to music with. There are many people that have a personal investment in getting their systems to sound a certain way, and they truly believe that it sounds "better" that way. Is it an accurate representation of the live music captured during the performance? Well, um, maybe.... and maybe not.
A good tube amplifier and a good solid-state amplifier sound so much alike that most people can't tell in a blind test. Everybody can tell if they know beforehand which amp they are listening to. We call that "listener bias". People that change interconnects and "hear" a "bid difference" typically find that when they do not know which is in place, they can no longer tell.... Same for amps and pre-amps. Not so for speakers.
My philosophy based on 40 years experience is, "pick your speakers, and get enough power to drive them". Simple. No bull, and no myth.
Have you organized and/or participated in a such test? If you did and wish, can you share some objective results?
One of my favorite "Myth Busting" experiments was having one stereo system hooked up. We had A/D/S MV40T speakers connected to an Xtant 302a (Car audio amplifier).
The speaker wires used to connect the amp to them were a few different types from "super pure 99.9% oxygen free beryllium copper" $500 plus per 10 foot length, ""shielded with magic foil and made from only the best material", and common zip cord......all were 16 gauge, all were exactly 10 foot long, and each set was connected thru a switch system that prevented anyone from knowing what set of wires were hooked up........total blind test.
Every single person out of 100 plus could not tell the differance in sound from one set to the other when tested blind.
But when we labeled the wires so people knew what set we were listening to, every single one said the zip cord sounded real bad, but their "brand of choice" always sounded best.
We even did a test on one brand that insisted you had to hook up one end to the speaker and the other to the amp, one set we reversed this.......blind absolutely no one could tell the difference......tell them hooked up right or wrong and they all said wrong sounded bad.
All it proved was that marketing hype can sway what people perceive, but educate them and show them the real world.....all of a sudden light bulbs go off.
Moral, the best way to judge what sounds best to you is to listen to the items without knowing what "brand" you are testing.........you may be surprised at how much money you can save too......
The speaker wires used to connect the amp to them were a few different types from "super pure 99.9% oxygen free beryllium copper" $500 plus per 10 foot length, ""shielded with magic foil and made from only the best material", and common zip cord......all were 16 gauge, all were exactly 10 foot long, and each set was connected thru a switch system that prevented anyone from knowing what set of wires were hooked up........total blind test.
Every single person out of 100 plus could not tell the differance in sound from one set to the other when tested blind.
But when we labeled the wires so people knew what set we were listening to, every single one said the zip cord sounded real bad, but their "brand of choice" always sounded best.
We even did a test on one brand that insisted you had to hook up one end to the speaker and the other to the amp, one set we reversed this.......blind absolutely no one could tell the difference......tell them hooked up right or wrong and they all said wrong sounded bad.
All it proved was that marketing hype can sway what people perceive, but educate them and show them the real world.....all of a sudden light bulbs go off.
Moral, the best way to judge what sounds best to you is to listen to the items without knowing what "brand" you are testing.........you may be surprised at how much money you can save too......
As for amplifier blind tests, yes, I have participated. Years ago, I was owner of an audio shop where we sold both tube and high-end solid state. Even sighted, I could never tell one from another, though many of my customers claimed to be able to do so.
If you search through Haptic forum, you will likely see the many blind tests done there with similar results.
If you search through Haptic forum, you will likely see the many blind tests done there with similar results.
It sounds like a great story, but seemingly not much different than many other common stories found on the internet.
Can you give us something more scientific?
In order to help you, I'm going to share you a small protocol of one of the usual blind test we're performing at work.
Equipment description: Hybrid solid state amplifier, Arcam alpha TDA1541 CD player, Furutech FA13 interconnects, TL MTM speakers using Seas Excel and Millenium series drivers.
Blind test description: preference between two sets of power cables with same cords, but different power and IEC plugs installed
The first power cable was equipped with Furutech’s F11 series rhodium plated
The second power cable was equipped with Elecaudio’s budget gold plated series
The power cable used was Neotech 3PS25. Both cables were carefully checked for the same Phase and neutral polarity. Both had the same length.
The argument that resulted the need of this blind test was that Elecaudio’s gold plated plugs sounded better on our system than the Furutech. We wanted to prove it unbiased.
There were 4 participants and I was the person switching cables.
There were two listening sessions, with 4 swaps (A-B-A-B) each
I gave to every participant a small sheet of paper and a pen to write down the answer.
The song used was Black bird by Patricia Barber.
The first cable was called A and the second B. No one was aware which was A or B. The swapping was being done by me and a plywood box covered the view towards the power cables.
Four swaps were made, then the session ended and a 15 minutes break was declared. I took the sheets and wrote down the results.
After the break, we did the same test, only that the cables were called now Q and Z. Keep in mind that Q=B and Z=A. I intentionally began with Q instead of Z. After another 4 swaps, the test ended and I picked the sheets again, writing down the second results.
The results were the following.
Person 1 First session preference for A ; Second session preference for Z ; Result = correct
Person 2 First session preference for A ; Second session preference for Z ; Result = correct
Person 3 First session preference for A ; Second session preference for Q ; Result = incorrect
Person 4 First session preference for A ; Second session preference for Z ; Result = correct
Result – 3 people of 4 blindly preferred and guessed the set of Elecaudio’s gold plated plugs.
How can I gain access to the Haptic forum? Does it use a browser compatible interface?
Blind tests are a great tool and we constantly use them at work. In fact, I'm in the middle of planning a self-operated ABX box for blind testing at home, but it's another story about finding time to spend on it.
My experience with listening to audio components is such that hearing can easily be fooled and/ or over saturated. Multiple ABX tests at once for example can make you so tired at some point, that you won't be able to make some subtle differences, even between two sets of speakers. Especially when subjected at high volumes.
In order to make blind tests work, a certain adjustment of the methods towards it should be done, while it can be still considered as blind at the same moment.
If I followed your set-up correctly, it sounds as if there was almost no statistical significance to the result. 3 out of 4 people getting one result and 1 out of 4 getting the opposite is something that could easily happen by pure chance. Like the chance of tossing a coin 4 times and getting 3 heads. Or did I misunderstand your set-up?
Chris
If I have to explain it using the coin analogy, one person tosses the coin two times.
So that person 1, 2 and 4 got heads two times
Person 3 tossed but got heads the first time and tails the second.
The blind test is not mentioned for the intention of trying to prove something, but just to give an example how I suggest blind tests should be presented in a discussion.
I don't understand what Haptic is, but looking at your URL, do you mean hydrogenaud.io ?
So the audibility might be caused by some power plugs sparking more or less? That's a good start.
Objectively, how much contact resistance may start to be audible? What is considered as "sufficient"?
What about the poor power supply design? What part of the power supply makes it good, so i can be considered as invulnerable to cable differences?
I agree with you that high DF does not instantly mean better, but how you can compare low DF amp with high DF amp without EQ?
When comparing something, the level and frequency response has to be EXACTLY matched each other in my experience, and low DF and high DF amp can't share the same response without EQ.
my apology for the wrong link
Hydrogen Audio links:
"Why tubes sound better" nonsense article
Also this published test: Masters, I. G. and Clark, D. L., "Do All Amplifiers Sound the Same?", Stereo Review, pp. 78-84 (January 1987)
Hydrogen Audio links:
"Why tubes sound better" nonsense article
Also this published test: Masters, I. G. and Clark, D. L., "Do All Amplifiers Sound the Same?", Stereo Review, pp. 78-84 (January 1987)
An amplifier no matter if tube or SS based should distort the least as possible. Another question pops in my mind - what kind of distortion is more harmful than another?
Subjectively, I've listened to both SS and tube amps that were great, bringing live like realism, details and dynamics, while others had mushy midrange, one note bass and congested dynamics. And my experience tells me, it's not only about THD and IMD numbers.
Subjectively, I've listened to both SS and tube amps that were great, bringing live like realism, details and dynamics, while others had mushy midrange, one note bass and congested dynamics. And my experience tells me, it's not only about THD and IMD numbers.
Audio is a funny hobby.
In the car hobby world, this unending quest to defend psycho acoustic delusion that we have in the audio world has no parallel. People love their C7 Corvettes. People love their Ferrari GTO's. AFAIK, the C7, at least the C7 Z06, can better every single performance metric of vintage exotic cars.
Nobody in the car world would debate this point. If it was the audio world someone would feel obliged to come up with a metric that the GTO exceeded the C7 to justify why they drive it instead of a C7. Why do you need a reason?
In the car hobby world, this unending quest to defend psycho acoustic delusion that we have in the audio world has no parallel. People love their C7 Corvettes. People love their Ferrari GTO's. AFAIK, the C7, at least the C7 Z06, can better every single performance metric of vintage exotic cars.
Nobody in the car world would debate this point. If it was the audio world someone would feel obliged to come up with a metric that the GTO exceeded the C7 to justify why they drive it instead of a C7. Why do you need a reason?
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