$US1000 + $US100 shipping + $A162 taxes and duty. Half paid May 11, balance + shipping July 11. Posted July 17> spent two weeks in Customs here.markus76 said:
You told me in mid May that you hsd the FG ones available and I stated that I'd rather wait for the PU ones. You sent the request for final payment on July 11, which is after you had stated in threads that you had finished the PU ones, so i assumed that after waiting all that time for the PU versions, that is what I would be getting. When you mentioned the FG ones, you said that you had had some (maybe 10 from memory) shiped in from Thailamd. Hmmmmgedlee said:
See above for timeframe. "When they were done?" So you made these? How come you have said in the thread you did not do fibreglass? These look suspiciously like offcuts from the Ai ESP10 baffles.gedlee said:
They are junk. Poorly made and finished. I was expecting a completed product that may have needed some light samding or the like to complete. The hole in the plexi plates does not match the holes. Correct, they were not what I was lead to expect I would be receiving.gedlee said:
I bought a complete product, so it's irrelevant the individual parts cost. I don't care if the foam plugs are worth $50 ea because I would not have bought them individually, and as the completed package is poorly made junk (the photo's show this clearly)gedlee said:
I am not interested in the current price. You have had $US500 of my money since May12 for this product so that is the price that I care about.gedlee said:
I have never threatened you Earl.gedlee said:
Here is my last email to you. I will forward it to anyone who asks, as well as the two sent several hours before. Perhaps a moderator would like to view them?
"You did not send me the product I paid for. I do not care whether you accept my position or not. You screwed up. Fix it up now and show some integrity. I do not want these. I want what I paid for or a full refund including the taxes I paid for the incorrect items. "
I see no threat. you are a liar.
I was clearly upset when I wrote the above. The last line is because I believe I should not be out of pocket for rubbish I would not have accepted if I had seen it in person before shipping.
It was totally your fault. From the letter you sent during the process I an sure that the handwriting on the box is yours, so you knew you packed this.gedlee said:
So now you expect me to pay ANOTHER $100 in postage and then wait until you decide to give me my money. You've had a lot of it for 3 months already. As stated below, I would NEVER have allowed them to ship if I had seen them in that condition beforehand.
You have been far from reasonable in sending such a shoddy product.gedlee said:
Give me back my $1000 and you pay the return shipping. Not an unreasonable offer. According to all the emails I have about this, no one would have paid for them if they had seen them in that state before shipping. I would not have paid ANYTHING for them if I had seen them in this state before shipping. As can be seen from my quote above, I have asked for the correct items to be sent, but now I am not interested in dealing any further with you Earl as I simply do not trust you.
That will mean I'm only $A300 out of pocket for this rubbish.
PB2 said:
Pete thanks for the reasonable position.
The fact is that the DIY community is a "Beta" test and whats wrong with that? If these were not "rough" they would be a whole lot more expensive than they are. Just look at the list prices on www.ai-audio.com - some five times higher than mine (assembled). And just as with any "beta" there are the pro's and cons. You get a direct link to the engineer when there is trouble (I have cooperated with the buyer in every case to resolve the issue) and you get a BIG price break. You also take the risk of finding some bugs. Be fully assured that the prices will go up as the bugs are fixed - if you haven't noticed they already have.
As to the throat curves. They are cast to CORRECT a bad throat that happens in the fiberglass casting. They are ground out and recast to the correct shape. They are very precise now in both the full poly cast and the fiberglass with the throat cast. That said, one can only be so precise in plastic - 1 mm is probably not possible, but its close. Then there is the gasket thicknesses (two), which have to be accounted for and these vary. The bottom line is that after five years at this I have concluded that the best procedure is to fit as close as "reasonable" and then to smooth the gaps, etc. in the final step. This is ALWAYS required, even in a perfect fit, because the B&C DE250 has a gap at the throat - it does not fit either - and this is NOT correctable, or so I am told by B&C. So no matter what you do, in the end you have to make the final 1 mm fit by using some clay. This is outlined in the instruction manual.
As I said, I usually sand the throats and don't understand why Brett's weren't done. This was my mistake and I appologize for it. But the sanding, if you look close, is only on the outer portion of the throat where the clay dam was in place to keep the poly from leaking out. In one or two cases the poly did leak out and got on the outside of the waveguide. This has no effect what-so-ever on the performance.
To me the bottom line here is that in no case did I sell anything that was not functionally correct or correctable with only sandpaper. This is a fact.
Brett said:
This is perfectly reasonable to me - thanks. Let me know what the shipping costs are and I will paypal you with that amount, then when I get them back and they are in good shape, I will reimburse you the $1000 per your requested. No one gives money back before they get the product back.
I will take them to the PO tomorrow after work. They will be repacked in the same box they were sent in with the same packing materials; I have only cut open the tape holding it closed. They have not been touched except to photograph in my yard and a friend, a JP (Notary Republic in the US) watched.gedlee said:
Hi all,
As far as the Nathan 10 kit, and the reason many are disappointed, it is for a very simple reason. Earl, do you know why so Markus and other potential buyers are not happy? It is one simple word.
Expectation.
Lets use the kit Markus got as an example. With these kits coming from you, everyone's expectation was too high. You did not set the right expectation. All you had to do was set everyones expectation BEFORE they order, and BEFORE you shipped the kits. Here is an example of what you need on your web site for the kits.
"Cabinet will we rough cut. The cuts are made by hand. They will not fit perfect, and may have gaps. You will need wood filler and MUCH sanding to fill in gaps."
Something like this needs to be on your web sit. With that kind of disclaimer, maybe someone like Markus would have recieved his kit with the right expectation, and said, or posted:
"Wow, this is better than I expected. This won't take much work at all"
See. The kit is the same. It did not change. But the outcome is totally different. In my example, the buyer just had a different expectation.
Tom
Who wants his cabinets made by John_E_Janowitz.
As far as the Nathan 10 kit, and the reason many are disappointed, it is for a very simple reason. Earl, do you know why so Markus and other potential buyers are not happy? It is one simple word.
Expectation.
Lets use the kit Markus got as an example. With these kits coming from you, everyone's expectation was too high. You did not set the right expectation. All you had to do was set everyones expectation BEFORE they order, and BEFORE you shipped the kits. Here is an example of what you need on your web site for the kits.
"Cabinet will we rough cut. The cuts are made by hand. They will not fit perfect, and may have gaps. You will need wood filler and MUCH sanding to fill in gaps."
Something like this needs to be on your web sit. With that kind of disclaimer, maybe someone like Markus would have recieved his kit with the right expectation, and said, or posted:
"Wow, this is better than I expected. This won't take much work at all"
See. The kit is the same. It did not change. But the outcome is totally different. In my example, the buyer just had a different expectation.
Tom
Who wants his cabinets made by John_E_Janowitz.
tomcat9 said:
Obviously someone doesnt know how glue works
I am sure if I presented work like that in here, I would be advised to practice more and do better
Apart from the last days, I think people are being VERY kind to Earl...afraid to loose him, or rather the benefits from having him here ?
To be constructive
I would think about other options fore having the MDF cut
You can still do the routing by yourself, if you want
If you dont deliver quality, it wont last very long
Tom
You are exactly correct and I've said this myself. It is all about expectation. I didn't know when I started what people would "expect" I needed to learn that. What I thought they would expect was performance, I didn't think about the work required to that end. I have posted on my web site that extensive woodworking is involved.
And I'll make a point again that John is going to cut the boards. This was in place well before this latest issue came up. I didn't see a need to make an issue about it.
For the most part people have been very reasonable to me and I have no complaints at all. I just wish that when people have an issue that they try and resolve it with me first before they come here with it.
The quality is in the sound, not the joints.
You are exactly correct and I've said this myself. It is all about expectation. I didn't know when I started what people would "expect" I needed to learn that. What I thought they would expect was performance, I didn't think about the work required to that end. I have posted on my web site that extensive woodworking is involved.
And I'll make a point again that John is going to cut the boards. This was in place well before this latest issue came up. I didn't see a need to make an issue about it.
For the most part people have been very reasonable to me and I have no complaints at all. I just wish that when people have an issue that they try and resolve it with me first before they come here with it.
The quality is in the sound, not the joints.
What I don't understand in the complaints here is that I've never received a kit that was ARF (Almost ready to fly). Having been a kit builder in audio and electronics, model rockets, r/c things, models, furniture, etc. I have always had to do a great deal of final finish work myself. What I am seeing from Dr. Geddes so far is well inline with what I see from these other supplies in this and other industries. In fact, since the nature of these speakers is somewhat unique, I think they most parallel R/C and Model building kits, which always come in a very rough shape.
I've now built 4 amplifiers from kits. My first experience I received 3 pcb's which had mistakes I had to manually fix (I was told about this in an email from the supplier), which involved needing to hand cut some traces, and jumper with wire. I had to purchase all the parts myself except the solid state devices, I had to furnish my own power supply parts, my own chassis, and do all my own machining for that. This particular kit is very popular here on the DIY forum, and is now sold with all the parts except transformer and chassis, which is still the hardest part of the whole thing. I also purchased amplifiers from Aussie Amps, again, while the amp modules themselves are great, the "chassis" work is what needs the most work, and is completely up to me to finish. Also, modifications to the PCB's is necassary in order to fit my particular needs, this is how things work.
With Speaker kits, I have built numerous kits over the years, and few of them ever even came with a cabinet at all. They usually came with crude and rough drawings, and that was about it. While a small few companies have begun selling kits with precut cabinets, either in flat pack or pre-assembled, this is rare, and generally very limiting of the kits. I've had Madisound routed baffles with bad routes that required final finish work, and this has been true of parts express as well. I bought and finished a kit from an English Kit company in flat pack form, and had to do all the assembly, routing, and final finishing myself (Way more than expected). In fact, that kit was designed to assemble with very tight tolerances as all the edges were 45 degrees. The routes weren't great and the mdf probably swelled causing gaps on all corners which had to be filled and sanded.
My opinion, based on my kit experience, is that the supplier/manufacturer is better offer leaving the finish more on the rough side and requiring more finish work from the end user, because if not, then when problems happen, and they do, the final finish will be easier to correct.
I don't really think that Dr. Geddes has misled people, and I don't fully understand where these expectations have come from. Maybe the first few times I built a kit I had higher expectations, but I rather quickly learned what the term DIY means. Since I love the DIY nature of these adventures (My projects typically take between 6 months and a year to finish) and the cost savings, I think everything going on here is reasonable. I love that Dr. Geddes is taking steps to further improve the quality of his kits, but having talked with him extensively about the pricing structure and problems with this, I don't blame him for starting where he did. What if he decided to launch these kits having developed full tooling for the two designs and begun stocking up inventory of enclosures, horns, speakers, crossovers, etc. and nobody bought them. Even if some people bought him but not as much as he needed to cover his initial investment. He would be out all that money, and thats not fare to expect of him.
I've now built 4 amplifiers from kits. My first experience I received 3 pcb's which had mistakes I had to manually fix (I was told about this in an email from the supplier), which involved needing to hand cut some traces, and jumper with wire. I had to purchase all the parts myself except the solid state devices, I had to furnish my own power supply parts, my own chassis, and do all my own machining for that. This particular kit is very popular here on the DIY forum, and is now sold with all the parts except transformer and chassis, which is still the hardest part of the whole thing. I also purchased amplifiers from Aussie Amps, again, while the amp modules themselves are great, the "chassis" work is what needs the most work, and is completely up to me to finish. Also, modifications to the PCB's is necassary in order to fit my particular needs, this is how things work.
With Speaker kits, I have built numerous kits over the years, and few of them ever even came with a cabinet at all. They usually came with crude and rough drawings, and that was about it. While a small few companies have begun selling kits with precut cabinets, either in flat pack or pre-assembled, this is rare, and generally very limiting of the kits. I've had Madisound routed baffles with bad routes that required final finish work, and this has been true of parts express as well. I bought and finished a kit from an English Kit company in flat pack form, and had to do all the assembly, routing, and final finishing myself (Way more than expected). In fact, that kit was designed to assemble with very tight tolerances as all the edges were 45 degrees. The routes weren't great and the mdf probably swelled causing gaps on all corners which had to be filled and sanded.
My opinion, based on my kit experience, is that the supplier/manufacturer is better offer leaving the finish more on the rough side and requiring more finish work from the end user, because if not, then when problems happen, and they do, the final finish will be easier to correct.
I don't really think that Dr. Geddes has misled people, and I don't fully understand where these expectations have come from. Maybe the first few times I built a kit I had higher expectations, but I rather quickly learned what the term DIY means. Since I love the DIY nature of these adventures (My projects typically take between 6 months and a year to finish) and the cost savings, I think everything going on here is reasonable. I love that Dr. Geddes is taking steps to further improve the quality of his kits, but having talked with him extensively about the pricing structure and problems with this, I don't blame him for starting where he did. What if he decided to launch these kits having developed full tooling for the two designs and begun stocking up inventory of enclosures, horns, speakers, crossovers, etc. and nobody bought them. Even if some people bought him but not as much as he needed to cover his initial investment. He would be out all that money, and thats not fare to expect of him.
pjpoes said:
Ladies and gentleman, I present to you the LGT in kit form:
Disclaimer: some finishing and assembly required
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
good thing that it all seems to be sorted out in the end
Yea, even I enjoyed that one!
On the Abbey 12, an update. I will most likely have John make the parts for this kit from the start. John appears very reasonable and I am sure that we can work together.
I am going to cast the first Abbey baffle on Monday. Then I am gone for a week. When I return I will build the prototype and do the crossovers. Hopefully by that time I will have the parts from John. Then after I assemble and test the final crossover, I will start shipping. This will be in about a month - best case. By that time the family will be back at school and there will be less diversion on the home front.
I am finding serious issues with shipments out of the country as customs seems to want to open them up, but not repack them correctly. I'm not sure how to resolve this. Any ideas? There is no way that I can insure that they will repack the boxes correctly. And I don't understand why they opened them. I mean its not like wood looks dangerous on an X-ray.
OT - once when I came back from Hong Kong I had an M-16 Airsoft gun. If you've never seen one of these, well they look very real, although they are plastic. I declared it and everything, but that didn't matter. I was stoped everytime I got on or off an airplane for the next several months. Funny in hindsight, but a real pain at the time - (after a 12 hour flight) "Oh, Mr. Geddes, would you come with us?", "What, no 'please'"
On the Abbey 12, an update. I will most likely have John make the parts for this kit from the start. John appears very reasonable and I am sure that we can work together.
I am going to cast the first Abbey baffle on Monday. Then I am gone for a week. When I return I will build the prototype and do the crossovers. Hopefully by that time I will have the parts from John. Then after I assemble and test the final crossover, I will start shipping. This will be in about a month - best case. By that time the family will be back at school and there will be less diversion on the home front.
I am finding serious issues with shipments out of the country as customs seems to want to open them up, but not repack them correctly. I'm not sure how to resolve this. Any ideas? There is no way that I can insure that they will repack the boxes correctly. And I don't understand why they opened them. I mean its not like wood looks dangerous on an X-ray.
OT - once when I came back from Hong Kong I had an M-16 Airsoft gun. If you've never seen one of these, well they look very real, although they are plastic. I declared it and everything, but that didn't matter. I was stoped everytime I got on or off an airplane for the next several months. Funny in hindsight, but a real pain at the time - (after a 12 hour flight) "Oh, Mr. Geddes, would you come with us?", "What, no 'please'"
Come on Shin thats not a fare jab. If you were to sell the LGT's as kits, you would either have to do a great deal of work for the diyer, or sell them in pretty rough form.
I bought 3 "flat pack" amplifier chassis from a manufacturer in China. This company is an OEM supplier for many high end amplifiers and also makes those amplifier chassis you see for sale on ebay from time to time. The chassis was supposed to come with all necessary hardware, including fuse receptacles, iec jack, binding posts, RCA connectors, and everything pre-punched. When I got it, they had apparently forgotten to paint the bottoms of all of my chassis. The screw holes in the top and bottom panels were in the wrong places by a slight amount. The threads were a mismatch between the supplied screws and the chassis panels. The wrong sized screws were sent for mounting the iec jack and front switch. After a great many back and forths with the company the most I got out of them was the cost of shipping back and an apology. I contacted one of the American manufacturers who I knew used their chassis and asked what their experience was. They told me that they stopped having that company add the inserts and supply any of the hardware since it was always wrong. They told me that my experience was very typical, and that they still used that company because that is the nature of the business. They told me that their previous American supplier was only marginally better, but at a much higher price. Having purchased multiple chassis from multiple suppliers, one american, one Italian, and one Chinese, I can say that my experience was roughly the same with all of them. The American offering the worst looking and most basic, but the best overall finish (Which isn't say much). In other words, all the screws fit because they didn't drill or thread anything for me, so I made them fit.
Honestly have you guys built kits before? Are you telling me that this is far worse than your typical experience? I mean, to give another parallel, I worked at a summer detailing Superformance kit cars. The shop did final assembly, installation of engines and drive trains, and sold these. These were 60-100,000 dollar kits. With no pre-assembly but including all needed parts you were generally looking at around 50-60 grand, and thats a lot of money. While they were supposed to be wonderful kit cars with very well engineered and well built chassis and parts, they often required a lot of work from the assembler. I remember more than once they would have bent chassis which required tweaking, holes that needed redrilling, parts replaced, etc. Superformance, as many of you may know, is considered one of the best kit companies on the market, and there is no doubt that you get an amazingly good performing car for the money, with good thorough engineering. It's just that the nature of DIY is that a lot of final assembly is often required, things rarely just bolt together.
I bought 3 "flat pack" amplifier chassis from a manufacturer in China. This company is an OEM supplier for many high end amplifiers and also makes those amplifier chassis you see for sale on ebay from time to time. The chassis was supposed to come with all necessary hardware, including fuse receptacles, iec jack, binding posts, RCA connectors, and everything pre-punched. When I got it, they had apparently forgotten to paint the bottoms of all of my chassis. The screw holes in the top and bottom panels were in the wrong places by a slight amount. The threads were a mismatch between the supplied screws and the chassis panels. The wrong sized screws were sent for mounting the iec jack and front switch. After a great many back and forths with the company the most I got out of them was the cost of shipping back and an apology. I contacted one of the American manufacturers who I knew used their chassis and asked what their experience was. They told me that they stopped having that company add the inserts and supply any of the hardware since it was always wrong. They told me that my experience was very typical, and that they still used that company because that is the nature of the business. They told me that their previous American supplier was only marginally better, but at a much higher price. Having purchased multiple chassis from multiple suppliers, one american, one Italian, and one Chinese, I can say that my experience was roughly the same with all of them. The American offering the worst looking and most basic, but the best overall finish (Which isn't say much). In other words, all the screws fit because they didn't drill or thread anything for me, so I made them fit.
Honestly have you guys built kits before? Are you telling me that this is far worse than your typical experience? I mean, to give another parallel, I worked at a summer detailing Superformance kit cars. The shop did final assembly, installation of engines and drive trains, and sold these. These were 60-100,000 dollar kits. With no pre-assembly but including all needed parts you were generally looking at around 50-60 grand, and thats a lot of money. While they were supposed to be wonderful kit cars with very well engineered and well built chassis and parts, they often required a lot of work from the assembler. I remember more than once they would have bent chassis which required tweaking, holes that needed redrilling, parts replaced, etc. Superformance, as many of you may know, is considered one of the best kit companies on the market, and there is no doubt that you get an amazingly good performing car for the money, with good thorough engineering. It's just that the nature of DIY is that a lot of final assembly is often required, things rarely just bolt together.
tinitus said:So, in the near future we will see a kit with AE drivers
Its possible, but his prices are a lot higher than what I pay so there would be a premium. Only one of his drivers is efficient enough to work in my designs because the compression driver is so efficient. If enough customers want to pay the extra for the AE drivers I'd do it. Its about $100 more each. Want silver caps - go for it! Want the best sound for the money, stick to the design as shipped.
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