Gramatical error, I should have said non-MDF and non-wood. Plastics actually have pretty good tolorance capability, otherwise there would be problems with lots of mobile phone chassis. The fact is it's best to get into a certain tolorance range where even the DIYer can get pretty consistent quality without big tools. This will also effect how kits are designed. For example, with the right tooling, any shop should be able to round out the baffle corners with about additional one or two minutes of work. This should not add much to the cost, but lowers the bar for DIYers to get good quality just by hand sanding. For the enclosure, while I can understand why you designed it that way, but if you use a concept similar to miter bit lock joints (http://www.oldham-usa.com/Products/BitsMain/Tip and tricks/Sect13/LockMiterJoints.htm) the result will also make it easier on the DIYer.gedlee said:
Note that I did not quote absolute accuracy, but the amount that needs to be sanded off. It you set up tooling right, each item should easily meet that requirement. If you only do one or two, probably you won't spend the time to set up tooling to do 100. But for someone that is doing a product that is going to be standard product, tooling should at least be able to support 100 items. It also makes sense since the proper tooling also reduces average labor time for each product significantly.amiklos said:
I bought the kits from Earl because I wanted the technology at least cost and I didn't want to set up a bench and circular saw in my apartment or on the balcony - that way lies disharmony with the neighbours and landlord. I also didn't want to buy and learn to use a router
My kits have arrived and there were two errors. One which Earl caught and emailed me about, and the other which I caught and told Earl about and his response was quick and reasonable.
The first kit had been opened by customs. They didn't put it back together as well as they might have and there was some damage to some mdf edges but not anything that can't be fixed with a bit of filler.
The first kit's waveguide/baffle had some imprecision at the back of the waveguide casting but this will have no effect on functionality. The second is a really nice piece of work and looks to me like it might be either a "second generation" mold or procedure.
The driver mounting plate matches exactly to the waveguide throat in both cases. I think the baffle/waveguide/mounting plate system is an elegant design.
I don't forsee any large difficulties in assembling and finishing.
As was mentioned above, I expect that if the right sort of documentation is provided, it's less likely customs would open the box.
The first box was pierced from the outside in several places but it doesn't look to me that this actually damaged the mdf. I think it was movement after the box had been opened.
My kits have arrived and there were two errors. One which Earl caught and emailed me about, and the other which I caught and told Earl about and his response was quick and reasonable.
The first kit had been opened by customs. They didn't put it back together as well as they might have and there was some damage to some mdf edges but not anything that can't be fixed with a bit of filler.
The first kit's waveguide/baffle had some imprecision at the back of the waveguide casting but this will have no effect on functionality. The second is a really nice piece of work and looks to me like it might be either a "second generation" mold or procedure.
The driver mounting plate matches exactly to the waveguide throat in both cases. I think the baffle/waveguide/mounting plate system is an elegant design.
I don't forsee any large difficulties in assembling and finishing.
As was mentioned above, I expect that if the right sort of documentation is provided, it's less likely customs would open the box.
The first box was pierced from the outside in several places but it doesn't look to me that this actually damaged the mdf. I think it was movement after the box had been opened.
According to Dr. Geddes my order will arrive in 1 month best case scenario, but otherwise is pretty uncertain. He said I wasn't top of the list, but was high enough to be part of the first Abbey 12 round. I may have a different experience than some of these early adopters as my kit, as mentioned earlier, will be cut by John, not Dr. Geddes. None the less, if I too end up being unhappy for some reason, I sure will have egg on my face after making all this fuss. None the less, I've had so many DIY fiasco's that I just look at it all as part of the adventure. Thus far my experience has been if a kit is put together as to require only a minimal amount of end assembly and finishing. I.E. enclosure is pretty much ready to go, just bolt some things in, connect some wires, etc, the cost savings over good commercial speakers is nill. On the other hand, if a great deal of work ends up being required, quite a bit more cost savings can be realized.
I mean, lets just take one of the better kits from Madisound, designed by Zaph. The ZRT 2-way. This design is roughly 1500 dollars, not including shipping. I would say this is equal to roughly a 10-15% savings over a commercially available speaker of similar performance and quality. In fact SV Sound offers a speaker which uses an identical tweeter, cheaper Peerless Nomex midbass (But two of them), a better enclosure, and lower quality crossover, but potentially just as well engineered. This speaker comes to 1500 and I believe they are including shipping. There are some really excellent values coming out of AV123, Outlaw, SV Sound, etc. Even old standards like Infinity, Polk, Klipsch, etc. are designing pretty good high value speakers.
I mean, lets just take one of the better kits from Madisound, designed by Zaph. The ZRT 2-way. This design is roughly 1500 dollars, not including shipping. I would say this is equal to roughly a 10-15% savings over a commercially available speaker of similar performance and quality. In fact SV Sound offers a speaker which uses an identical tweeter, cheaper Peerless Nomex midbass (But two of them), a better enclosure, and lower quality crossover, but potentially just as well engineered. This speaker comes to 1500 and I believe they are including shipping. There are some really excellent values coming out of AV123, Outlaw, SV Sound, etc. Even old standards like Infinity, Polk, Klipsch, etc. are designing pretty good high value speakers.
Markus I meant to add, what is it about this being a speaker kit that changes the expectation from someone buying an R/C car for instance. It can't be price, back when that was a hobby of mine, those RC cars were as expensive or more than these kits. Even 2000 dollar cars came with lexan bodies you had to cut out and finish yourself, and often with imperfections.
You keep saying, customers had expectations, and I'm saying, I don't understand where those expectations came from.
You keep saying, customers had expectations, and I'm saying, I don't understand where those expectations came from.
pjpoes, obiwan answered your question. This is what I expect from a kit (please scroll down to the pictures as the text is in German, sorry):
http://www.cnc-boxenprofis.de/pd-574984987.htm?categoryId=0
Looking at pictures from Johns work, I guess your kit will have that kind of quality.
Best, Markus
http://www.cnc-boxenprofis.de/pd-574984987.htm?categoryId=0
Looking at pictures from Johns work, I guess your kit will have that kind of quality.
Best, Markus
I created this account just to post to this thread.
I'm someone on a limited budget, with very limited scientific background, and with no DIY speaker building experience, researching a speaker purchase. Please forgive any ignorance I project; it's part of the package..
In no particular order, other than when I can remember them, some questions and comments.
This idea that automating some of the production would raise costs would seem to run counter to the experience of, oh, say, ... Henry Ford. Would the Models A and T been cheaper for him to make by hand?
I just happened to read a review last night ( http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/markdaniel3/ruby.html ) of a British speaker company, relatively new - I never heard of 'em, that, if the review is to be believed, spent considerable time and money on r&d, and yet, manages to sell a speaker pair for $1600 that contains technology they developed, including drivers, and is housed in cabinet made of a synthetic marble resin.
So, why again would the Ai version have to cost 5 times more than Gedde built model? Shouldn't there be an economy of scale?
...
In a local alternative weekly, there was a music column that used the borrow phrase, 'Dancing About Architecture' for a title, as in, writing about music is like dancing about architecture, and the same can be said for writing about gear.
It's hard for the novice gear buyer to sift through what is important, and real, in these forums, in general.
It is kind of daunting to see what these early adopters are going through.
Personally, as a potential buyer of built speakers, I'd like to get something well made. Hypothetically, if the Gedde sound in the built Abbey is a 9 out of 10, but the build quality isn't on par, I'd likely buy the $1000 competitor that's a 7 out of 10 sound-wise at that price point, but had a build quality to survive moving.
I don't care how it looks. I just don't want it fall apart, or fall down acoustically.
I'm someone on a limited budget, with very limited scientific background, and with no DIY speaker building experience, researching a speaker purchase. Please forgive any ignorance I project; it's part of the package..
In no particular order, other than when I can remember them, some questions and comments.
This idea that automating some of the production would raise costs would seem to run counter to the experience of, oh, say, ... Henry Ford. Would the Models A and T been cheaper for him to make by hand?
I just happened to read a review last night ( http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/markdaniel3/ruby.html ) of a British speaker company, relatively new - I never heard of 'em, that, if the review is to be believed, spent considerable time and money on r&d, and yet, manages to sell a speaker pair for $1600 that contains technology they developed, including drivers, and is housed in cabinet made of a synthetic marble resin.
So, why again would the Ai version have to cost 5 times more than Gedde built model? Shouldn't there be an economy of scale?
...
In a local alternative weekly, there was a music column that used the borrow phrase, 'Dancing About Architecture' for a title, as in, writing about music is like dancing about architecture, and the same can be said for writing about gear.
It's hard for the novice gear buyer to sift through what is important, and real, in these forums, in general.
It is kind of daunting to see what these early adopters are going through.
Personally, as a potential buyer of built speakers, I'd like to get something well made. Hypothetically, if the Gedde sound in the built Abbey is a 9 out of 10, but the build quality isn't on par, I'd likely buy the $1000 competitor that's a 7 out of 10 sound-wise at that price point, but had a build quality to survive moving.
I don't care how it looks. I just don't want it fall apart, or fall down acoustically.
Well I would ask then if you guys have built other kits, and exactly how many. As I said, at least in America, very few offer cabinets in the first place, and I think this is why. The link markus posted shows a 3d rendering of a cnced box, not the actual product. I've built roughly 4-5 boxes now from CNCed parts, and they aren't ever perfect. Parts get chips in the, tolerances are off, swelling takes place, whatever it is, they don't fit like they should. I've built kits from Loudspeaker kit in Australia (and my boxes had problems), and Wimslow Audio where they refer to it as Child's Play. Well ok, mine wasn't. The corners were all mitered at 45 degree's, but they weren't exactly right, so there were spaces on most of the corners. I had to fill and fix all of these. The opening for the drivers were slightly too small, as were the cutouts for the terminal plates and port. The LSK kit was well machined so that all the parts looked great, but they didn't fit together. I had to sand all of the interlocking grooves and trim a small amount off the edges in order to get everything to fit. The polyvinyl glue I used, at their recommendation, expanded, causing gaps in all the joints. Thats my experience with good cnced boxes. I then had a "custom" box made by Elemental designs and sent to me, cut on a cnc machine, and it was a nightmare. The first one had to be sent back because the programmer got the dimensions wrong, and the second one was off by a few mm on all edges, and was not dimensionally true.
As for this argument of economy of scale, you are missing a major issue. If Henry Ford mass produced the Model T but only sold a small handful of them, then he would have lost his shirt. Economy of scale only works if actually mass produced and then sold in volume. The Ai kits cost more, I'm sure, because they have profit margins, overhead, initial engineering costs, and they still aren't truly mass producing those. If Dr. Geddes was to attempt the mass production scales necessary to save money, he would need to spend a lot more money initially, that he would have to get back at some point. This is DIY after all, he isn't going to sell that many of these kits, not enough to justify the expense of such production methods. I imagine if things sell well and he begins to turn a profit, he will start looking at having more and more of these parts outsourced to companies that can produce them better.
That Mark and Daniel speaker, being sold for 1600 dollars, can't really be compared to Dr. Geddes as its a tiny little speaker. Even using the possibly more expensive cabinet (cast synthetic Marble is actually just a type of polymer epoxy with a high density additive), the drivers are going to be cheaper. You would really have to compare the much larger speakers from that company, which are well over 6 and 7000 dollars American. And as I said earlier, DIY doesn't offer that much of a cost savings over the produced product.
While I can't speak from personal experience on this, there appears nothing about the Geddes product that is delicate. I don't see how it would fall apart or be unable to be moved. I think when properly finished it will be as solid as any speaker. Or at least as solid as any other MDF (MDF isn't exactly a tough material).
As for this argument of economy of scale, you are missing a major issue. If Henry Ford mass produced the Model T but only sold a small handful of them, then he would have lost his shirt. Economy of scale only works if actually mass produced and then sold in volume. The Ai kits cost more, I'm sure, because they have profit margins, overhead, initial engineering costs, and they still aren't truly mass producing those. If Dr. Geddes was to attempt the mass production scales necessary to save money, he would need to spend a lot more money initially, that he would have to get back at some point. This is DIY after all, he isn't going to sell that many of these kits, not enough to justify the expense of such production methods. I imagine if things sell well and he begins to turn a profit, he will start looking at having more and more of these parts outsourced to companies that can produce them better.
That Mark and Daniel speaker, being sold for 1600 dollars, can't really be compared to Dr. Geddes as its a tiny little speaker. Even using the possibly more expensive cabinet (cast synthetic Marble is actually just a type of polymer epoxy with a high density additive), the drivers are going to be cheaper. You would really have to compare the much larger speakers from that company, which are well over 6 and 7000 dollars American. And as I said earlier, DIY doesn't offer that much of a cost savings over the produced product.
While I can't speak from personal experience on this, there appears nothing about the Geddes product that is delicate. I don't see how it would fall apart or be unable to be moved. I think when properly finished it will be as solid as any speaker. Or at least as solid as any other MDF (MDF isn't exactly a tough material).
loopguru said:
In limited numbers, yes, it would have been cheaper to build by hand rather than incur all of the up-front costs of mass-production facilities, tooling, machining, labor costs, etc. Hobbyist- or prototype-scale production (essentially, only a few more than one-off) is often more cost-effectively done using quite different methods and divisions between automation and hand labor than those that work well for larger-scale production efforts. Crossing over that difference or not quite often determines whether a hobby or research project can be turned into a viable business. It appears that Earl is currently in a straddle position -- largely intentionally, having chosen to explore DIY kits after determining that going immediately to larger-scale finished production wasn't viable.
His isn't an easy position to be in, but Henry Ford's success doesn't mean that Earl is necessarily making mistakes.
pjpoes said:
Ahem...
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An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Weird, my first ever DIY was a Wilmslow kit with flat pack cabinets. Only one phase springs to mind - "Like a glove".
I also had a friend who bought the Prestige with flat pack cabinets. I took a look at the parts and helped out a little. Again, the cuts were spot on.
Of course if you don't assemble correctly and get one panel out of spec then the rest will be too. If this is the case then your probably best off having a cabinet or furniture making do the work for you.
You don't have to pay a fortune for a decent rectangular box with roundovers. Its childs play for anyone claiming to be a competent woodworker. I have no idea who cut the first batch of boxes for Earl but they certainly weren't competent.
All this talk of mass production is just a smoke screen for the real issue.
Shop around, you'll find someone who can do boxes like that with their eyes closed and for a reasonable price. Earl doesn't need to buy a factory floor, 50 staff and rent out 300k's worth of equipment for something this simple.
Without adding too much to life and history of rc cars and Henry Ford, I'll just add that Earl needs to look into QC and put some pressure on his fabricator.
Earl is his own fabricator. And I believe, from what I've heard, that Markus is the only person to get a box with problems (Doesn't mean this is so, its just the only one I know of), and Earl said it was a first run with some known issues, but that Markus wanted it quickly. As for the other QC issue was his custom made fiberglass horns, and I think thats a tough one. I mean, how can he offer them?
Shin, while I agree with you in concept here, I can say that I've ordered custom wood boxes from so many companies, and I usually pay a lot, especially for quality. Elemental Designs charged me over 600 dollars for the 5 cubic foot ported box with extensive bracing and double layer thickness all around. That did not, however, include the shipping. Meniscus Audio charges roughly 700 dollars for a pair of 2 cubic foot towers. A Local Cabinet shop built me a subwoofer box, roughly 2 cubic foot sealed, and I was charged 350 dollars for it.
My wimslow experience wasn't as positive as yours, while it was nothing I ever really complained about, it wasn't "like a glove." Mine had to go from England to the US, so maybe there was a lot of swelling, I don't know. I used 90 degree clamps to ensure everything went together the way it was supposed to, which is how I first noticed the problem. I tried putting it together with just strap clamps, but that was actually worse.
The box you show looks great, I would love to see that happen more often, but that hasn't been my personal experience. I wish we had a company here in the US that could do something like that, and at an affordable price. I mean, Dr. Geddes I believe said he was only charging 100 dollars for the cabinet in the first place, thats 200 a pair. I'm quite certain that companies like Meniscus would charge 500 for a pair unfinished and 6-700 for a pair finished in a standard veneer.
Shin, while I agree with you in concept here, I can say that I've ordered custom wood boxes from so many companies, and I usually pay a lot, especially for quality. Elemental Designs charged me over 600 dollars for the 5 cubic foot ported box with extensive bracing and double layer thickness all around. That did not, however, include the shipping. Meniscus Audio charges roughly 700 dollars for a pair of 2 cubic foot towers. A Local Cabinet shop built me a subwoofer box, roughly 2 cubic foot sealed, and I was charged 350 dollars for it.
My wimslow experience wasn't as positive as yours, while it was nothing I ever really complained about, it wasn't "like a glove." Mine had to go from England to the US, so maybe there was a lot of swelling, I don't know. I used 90 degree clamps to ensure everything went together the way it was supposed to, which is how I first noticed the problem. I tried putting it together with just strap clamps, but that was actually worse.
The box you show looks great, I would love to see that happen more often, but that hasn't been my personal experience. I wish we had a company here in the US that could do something like that, and at an affordable price. I mean, Dr. Geddes I believe said he was only charging 100 dollars for the cabinet in the first place, thats 200 a pair. I'm quite certain that companies like Meniscus would charge 500 for a pair unfinished and 6-700 for a pair finished in a standard veneer.
I've had my own designs cut CNC by a company I found on the interweb. They came 100% perfectly cut and fitted together wonderfully. I had to get 8 pairs of speakers made to make it worth the guys time.
Also I would add that I can make cuts quite easily to an accuracy of +/- 0.2mm on my Makita table saw.
My advice to DR. Geddes is simply to put some pictures of the product on his website!! Last time I looked there was not a single picture, only a link to the Ai website.
As for the horn, how about getting a mold machined from solid metal, and then casting them from resin? The metal work from a precision engineers might cost £500.
Also I would add that I can make cuts quite easily to an accuracy of +/- 0.2mm on my Makita table saw.
My advice to DR. Geddes is simply to put some pictures of the product on his website!! Last time I looked there was not a single picture, only a link to the Ai website.
As for the horn, how about getting a mold machined from solid metal, and then casting them from resin? The metal work from a precision engineers might cost £500.
just an example
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=302-753
I'm not affiliated with PE, though I keep going back there.
The link is for a finished, curved sided cherry veneer 1 cf cabinet with grill. ~$150 each.
The flat sided cabinet is ~$120 each
That's comparing apples and oranges, I know. It does give an idea of what is available at a price point.
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=302-753
I'm not affiliated with PE, though I keep going back there.
The link is for a finished, curved sided cherry veneer 1 cf cabinet with grill. ~$150 each.
The flat sided cabinet is ~$120 each
That's comparing apples and oranges, I know. It does give an idea of what is available at a price point.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
The thing is, I don't think Dr. Geddes would necessarily have faced all those start up and tooling expenses.
I have no idea how Dr. Geddes is valuing his time, but,if I calculate correctly, Wood Artistry, the people designated by Linkwitz to assemble his beasties, are charging at least $65 an hour. A $1000 Pluto II kit becomes a $2995 assembled, finished product. I'm guessing Wood Artistry uses the less expensive kit and builds the amps themselves.
Semi-related aside: when I worked for an ISP in the mid 90's, and they sent me out on $65 an hour house calls, I was making $12 an hour.
Anyway, with all the machining in the Motor City and surrounding areas, all the innovative stuff going on, you'd think there would be better options.
i mean, Albert Einstein didn't build the bomb. George Foreman doesn't build the grill.
And this is coming from someone who would actually prefer a speaker from a hands-on Dr. Gedde. But hands on boards precision cut elsewhere, on cabinets painted elsewhere; it seems there should be a way to work a deal where you build up a certain number of cabinets, then take them en masse somewhere where it works out to be a little cheaper for them to paint them in 2 hours than for Dr Geddes to pay himself to take 10 hours.
I have no idea how Dr. Geddes is valuing his time, but,if I calculate correctly, Wood Artistry, the people designated by Linkwitz to assemble his beasties, are charging at least $65 an hour. A $1000 Pluto II kit becomes a $2995 assembled, finished product. I'm guessing Wood Artistry uses the less expensive kit and builds the amps themselves.
Semi-related aside: when I worked for an ISP in the mid 90's, and they sent me out on $65 an hour house calls, I was making $12 an hour.
Anyway, with all the machining in the Motor City and surrounding areas, all the innovative stuff going on, you'd think there would be better options.
i mean, Albert Einstein didn't build the bomb. George Foreman doesn't build the grill.
And this is coming from someone who would actually prefer a speaker from a hands-on Dr. Gedde. But hands on boards precision cut elsewhere, on cabinets painted elsewhere; it seems there should be a way to work a deal where you build up a certain number of cabinets, then take them en masse somewhere where it works out to be a little cheaper for them to paint them in 2 hours than for Dr Geddes to pay himself to take 10 hours.
MEH said:
The discussion goes around in circles again. If a vendor doesn't clearly communicate what to expect from a self-proclaimed "premium" product then what is the customer allowed to expect? The best or the worst?
If one provides a product that doesn't meet common production standards for a specific type of product (we're still talking about the products "speaker kit" and "horn") then you have to clearly communicate what the product is like. This has absolutely nothing to do with the price or the functionality of that specific product. It has something to do with getting the expectations of your customers right and preventing you as a vendor from having to cope with frustrated customers.
And I don't want to restart the discussion on how to become a beta tester unintentionally ...
Best, Markus
If one provides a product that doesn't meet common production standards for a specific type of product (we're still talking about the products "speaker kit" and "horn") then you have to clearly communicate what the product is like. This has absolutely nothing to do with the price or the functionality of that specific product. It has something to do with getting the expectations of your customers right and preventing you as a vendor from having to cope with frustrated customers.
And I don't want to restart the discussion on how to become a beta tester unintentionally ...
Best, Markus
I know the size is different, but my point remains the same. Both the British company and Geddes applied for or hold patents, incurring R&D costs.
Both have cost of materials to factor in; I suspect there's more in material cost in the assembled, smaller, $1600 British speaker.
Both have cost of materials to factor in; I suspect there's more in material cost in the assembled, smaller, $1600 British speaker.
pjpoes said:
This does seem to be going in circles. What is important is more reports on kits actually received and photos on Earl's website showing what is going to be sent, not theoretical discussions.
The post about expectations is the wisest of all IMHO. Once people know accurately what they are going to get, they can make the decision to buy or not, and if the kit is as described and shown accurately they won't be disappointed.
Now if the kit is more appealing as shown and described accurately, then I suspect more people would buy it...
I think there needs to be a kit without the MDF box, as shipping the stuff overseas seems kinda a problem in its own right for various reasons. A kit with just the drivers and crossover and plans/instructions and waveguide seems a good option for many people overseas. It might be more cost effective and less hassle to have the local cabinet maker construct them from scratch than pay shipping and duty, possible damage, on some pieces of MDF. The only way around this is if the pieces of MDF are REALLY NICELY MADE pieces of MDF
whoops, now I'm off pontificating...
The post about expectations is the wisest of all IMHO. Once people know accurately what they are going to get, they can make the decision to buy or not, and if the kit is as described and shown accurately they won't be disappointed.
Now if the kit is more appealing as shown and described accurately, then I suspect more people would buy it...
I think there needs to be a kit without the MDF box, as shipping the stuff overseas seems kinda a problem in its own right for various reasons. A kit with just the drivers and crossover and plans/instructions and waveguide seems a good option for many people overseas. It might be more cost effective and less hassle to have the local cabinet maker construct them from scratch than pay shipping and duty, possible damage, on some pieces of MDF. The only way around this is if the pieces of MDF are REALLY NICELY MADE pieces of MDF
whoops, now I'm off pontificating...
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