One of the reasons I like the rubber wrap around edge gaskets is that they trim up everything nicely. They have a little flex to them when putting the drivers in the hole. They have about a 1/8" radius on the outside edge. Using a 1/4" or 1/8" radius on the countersink hole then fitting the woofer tightly gives a pretty nice finished look:
This is the best example I can find now, but you can see how the gasket covers everything and fits tight in the holes.
John
This is the best example I can find now, but you can see how the gasket covers everything and fits tight in the holes.
John
As my waveguides have arrived, I'll comment. I was concerned when you posted the initial pics in this thread.markus76 said:Looks like a lot of adjustments and sanding... I guess that's the price you have to pay for...
However, look at what I got sent.
http://s517.photobucket.com/albums/u338/earlstuffsup/?start=0
I ordered the cast polyurethane waveguides and got this junk, and so far Earl has refused a refund.
Re: Re: Re: Building the Nathan 10
http://s517.photobucket.com/albums/u338/earlstuffsup/?start=0
Five. They are all shown in the photobucket link earlier in the thread.soongsc said:
http://s517.photobucket.com/albums/u338/earlstuffsup/?start=0
Markus, I clearly ordered and waited for the cast waveguides. I made my iitial payment on May 12 and was informed they were ready on July 11. These look like AI ESP10 rejects and I would not have paid $30 each for them, let alone $200.markus76 said:
Did you examine the photos? These are poor quality junk. Would you have paid $200 each for them? Look at the appalling workmanship!
As for "not officially available" read the thread. Earl clearly describes the problems with the casting process and the solutions. He had my money for two months and I accepted that. I rejected the offer of the FG flares as I wanted these PU ones.
I am very surprised at this response from you considering the poor workmanship of the product you were supplied and the attitude with which your criticisms were received.
shoddy product
Those look pretty ratt-y, for sure. Never should have been shipped like that!
Once again, apparently, EG displays an arrogant lack of judgement, or perhaps total naivete' about what does and doesn't represent a commercial product. For $200, they should be gold plated... oh, I could do that, right?
Earl should wise up and realize he's shooting himself in the foot trying to foist this cr** off on people, start-up problems or not...
Apparently he wants everyone else to suffer his start up costs and trials... guess that's why he came to a diy forum, eh?
John L.
inexcusable.
Those look pretty ratt-y, for sure. Never should have been shipped like that!
Once again, apparently, EG displays an arrogant lack of judgement, or perhaps total naivete' about what does and doesn't represent a commercial product. For $200, they should be gold plated... oh, I could do that, right?
Earl should wise up and realize he's shooting himself in the foot trying to foist this cr** off on people, start-up problems or not...
Apparently he wants everyone else to suffer his start up costs and trials... guess that's why he came to a diy forum, eh?
John L.
inexcusable.
This is disgusting IMO.
I look at those cabinet and Brett's waveguides and I have to question why on earth Earl would post out this second rate garbage. Surely he inspected it before shipping and take up the issue with the supplier. Not send them out regardless.
The routing on those cabinets is awful, absolutely hideous. I've thrown away better work, can't believe someone would charge for that. As for the waveguides, $200 is a joke from what Brett has shown.
I'd be pushing for replacements and if those weren't spot on then my money back. If Earl refused I'd take it to the small claims court.
We're DIY'ers, not stupid.
Hard to say anything that hasn't yet been
What's up earl? Why the shoddy work and bad attitude? And what gives, where you talk about high tolerance requirements and throat matching, yet release this garbage (and at a premium price)?
Bad manufacturing with the attitude and apparently ethics to match.
You're lucky you didn't sell one to someone local to you, some people would take this kind of thing personally. I know if I got this kind of stuff custom ordered from a store, and I came to pick it up and was refused a refund, my temper would be pretty hot. It's not only not what people were expecting when they paid premium prices, it's an insult to their intelligence, and along with your arrogance it might be construed as questioning their willingness to take action against you... you're effectively picking a fight with your behavior.
Shameful. And if you're tired of being chastised for it.... make it right.
What's up earl? Why the shoddy work and bad attitude? And what gives, where you talk about high tolerance requirements and throat matching, yet release this garbage (and at a premium price)?
Bad manufacturing with the attitude and apparently ethics to match.
You're lucky you didn't sell one to someone local to you, some people would take this kind of thing personally. I know if I got this kind of stuff custom ordered from a store, and I came to pick it up and was refused a refund, my temper would be pretty hot. It's not only not what people were expecting when they paid premium prices, it's an insult to their intelligence, and along with your arrogance it might be construed as questioning their willingness to take action against you... you're effectively picking a fight with your behavior.
Shameful. And if you're tired of being chastised for it.... make it right.
markus76 said:
Quite correct. Brett has his story and I have mine.
Here are the facts:
1) I told Brett that I had fiberglass waveguides now, but that he would have to wait quite awhile to get five cast ones as I had a lot of full kit orders ahead of him. His response was ambiguous.
2) When the five waveguides were done I wrote Brett again requesting clarification on the order and none was forthcoming, although he did pay the final amount and so I assumed that he was satisfied with what I was going to send.
3) The waveguides that were sent were perfectly usable although they would need some finishing work. I don't cut off the flange because not know how they would be mounted and as such it is best for the end user to do that. I usually do sand the cast throat and don't understand why Brett got one that wasn't (although this is a simple procedure that takes about 5 minutes) But make no mistake about it when one orders just the waveguides they don't get a completely finished piece because they have to finish in-situ. They DO get something that is completely suitable to the task. My first several Nathans used fiberglass waveguides with MDF mounts just like the ones that Brett got. There is simply nothing wrong with those parts, they just were not what Brett was expecting.
4) The price included a foam plug, which I sell for $50 each and a mounting plate, which is hand machined, the center hole not being simply a hole but in fact an extension of the waveguide. When I first bought these they cost me $125 each because of the machining time. In Plexi-glass they are a lot less expensive, but work just as well. So the waveguide themselves are no where near $200, more like $75 after the discount that I offered Brett.
5) When Brett told me of his disappointment, I said that I was sorry for the misunderstanding and that I offered to lower the price by $50 each. That would make his waveguide $100 less (each!) than the current price for cast waveguides.
6) Brett was not very cooperative making all kinds of unreasonable demands. I asked why he did not want to just clean up those waveguides and he responded that he didn't see how to mount them (which is really a no-brainer). I responded that the cast ones had 1.25" flanges and THOSE would be actually be harder to mount - i.e. he was really better off with what he had. At that point Brett became threatening (as you can see here) and I simply stopped responding to him.
If Brett sends what he has back to me and they arrive in good condition I will refund to him all of the money that he has paid me. I have no problem with that. I do have a problem with Bretts demands for full compensation of extraneous expenses (not paid to me) because it was "totally my fault".
Brett is attempting to basically blackmail me into giveing him what he wants. I'm sorry that he feels that he needs to do that since I have been reasonable to everyone who has been reasonable to me.
Actions LOUDER than words.. sorry to say
The pictures (Brett's and Markus's) say MUCH MORE than EG's equivocations (and/or outright prevarication) ever will
All that can be said here is, for the kind of pricing being bandied about... caveat emptor.
I guess PT Barnum had it right... and earl is one of his disciples
too bad... could'a been quite a product success if marketed correctly... and if it lives up to the "high and mighty" attributes ascribed to it.
This kind of attitude would be right at home in Detroit.... iow... if u don't like it..screw-off
pompous arrogance.. that's all
Good luck to the Nathan endeavour.. you'll need it.. you obviously don't deal with public situations well, do you?
John L.
The pictures (Brett's and Markus's) say MUCH MORE than EG's equivocations (and/or outright prevarication) ever will
All that can be said here is, for the kind of pricing being bandied about... caveat emptor.
I guess PT Barnum had it right... and earl is one of his disciples
too bad... could'a been quite a product success if marketed correctly... and if it lives up to the "high and mighty" attributes ascribed to it.
This kind of attitude would be right at home in Detroit.... iow... if u don't like it..screw-off
pompous arrogance.. that's all
Good luck to the Nathan endeavour.. you'll need it.. you obviously don't deal with public situations well, do you?
John L.
First off, you all understand that you're not just buying wood, fiberglass and foam, rather you're also paying for the innovative engineering time that went into it. Do I really have to point this out? Your not buying an IBM PC built by the millions. I do understand that one would not expect something this "rough".
I have to say that I was a bit shocked to see the rough fit of Markus' kit, but now everyone knows that this is a very rough kit that will require what, 5 extra hours of prep to produce a nice finished product. Earl should explain this on his website and perhaps show pictures, before and after, and list the tools required. I have to say that the finished product looks just fine:
I certainly think that it is good for others to see what the product actually looks like, however, it is ... what it is ... if you want new technology that is transitioning from the prototype phase and requires extra work to complete then buy it. If you want a finished product, don't buy a "rough" kit. But don't trash Earl's business so that DIY builders lose a new and innovative technology. Take your money back and stop whining, it is a lesson in life if you've not already learned - you've not lost much if you get your money back.
Earl should show pictures of what he's offering on his site and explain that it is a "rough" kit. I strongly suggest that he takes John up on his offer and has him do the box and perhaps ship direct if that might work:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=1586197#post1586197
Keep the peace people, there are much bigger problems in life. Take your money back if you're displeased don't trash Earl's business.
Pete B.
I have to say that I was a bit shocked to see the rough fit of Markus' kit, but now everyone knows that this is a very rough kit that will require what, 5 extra hours of prep to produce a nice finished product. Earl should explain this on his website and perhaps show pictures, before and after, and list the tools required. I have to say that the finished product looks just fine:
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
I certainly think that it is good for others to see what the product actually looks like, however, it is ... what it is ... if you want new technology that is transitioning from the prototype phase and requires extra work to complete then buy it. If you want a finished product, don't buy a "rough" kit. But don't trash Earl's business so that DIY builders lose a new and innovative technology. Take your money back and stop whining, it is a lesson in life if you've not already learned - you've not lost much if you get your money back.
Earl should show pictures of what he's offering on his site and explain that it is a "rough" kit. I strongly suggest that he takes John up on his offer and has him do the box and perhaps ship direct if that might work:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=1586197#post1586197
Keep the peace people, there are much bigger problems in life. Take your money back if you're displeased don't trash Earl's business.
Pete B.
PB2 said:
The website does say this and I will post some photos of the parts, I already did that here. What Marcus showed at first was a misrepresentation in that this was the fit that was intended. It's best not to cut more than necessary BEFORE assembly because its easier to sand down than to add later. The early kits did not fit as well as they will now, I am going to have John cut the wood with CNC. But its important to note that the pictures shown did not really give the right perspective to the fit and the fact that the corners will NOT fit until they are assembled and sanded. That was the way that they were designed. Build it right and it will look great.
I finally had a chance to audition the Nathans in my HT and all I can say is that I was extremely pleased. They were not Summas, but they were far more similar than they were different. The overall sound was exceptional.
A couple of things struck me. First, the sweet spot for the Nathans is narrower than the Summas and one wants to sit a lot closer to the Nathans than the Summas. These two things are to be expected I suppose. But what really struck me was how important the multiple subs are. The sound was very full since the LF system for the Nathans was the same as that I use for my Summas. I can't under emphasize the importance of multiple subs.
All in all I will make no excuses for this design. It may be hard to assemble - not for the inexperienced, get them finished - but the sound is something that I will put up against any speaker in its price range and many at a much higher price.
I think it's a minor communication problem. However, I am quite interested as to why pictures of the products being delivered could not be sent to make sure the buyer understands what he is receiving is not use out-of-box type product.
For such priced products including shipping, at least the thoats should be to made to the tolorances talked about in the waveguide thread and finished without further need for sanding so that no one can say they were "modified" or "improved" by the buyer..
For such priced products including shipping, at least the thoats should be to made to the tolorances talked about in the waveguide thread and finished without further need for sanding so that no one can say they were "modified" or "improved" by the buyer..
ShinOBIWAN said:
Shin,
First let me say that I've had far worse purchasing transactions in life, one $1600 for nothing. And a lemon Porsche for over $30,000, seemed like the worst thing at the time. Oh, get this, just one problem with the Porsche was that the rocker panels were not fully painted there was primer showing through and this was a new car, LOL! Having a family and children to worry about now puts things in perspective.
OK, I see your point about beta testers, however Earl is a one man, low volume operation, I believe from what I've read here, so cut him some slack. He's not Microsoft, LOL and look at what they ship!
I find it interesting to see different people's perspectives, we don't have to agree. I would be very cautious about buying from any new operation. I wondered if Earl would build these in his garage or farm out for precision work. I think he made the wrong choice, such is life, people make mistakes what can you do? Give him some time to make it right before you linch him, LOL!
Some people are more into the implementation end of building, others into the theory you don't always get both from a single person. I disagree about the IP unless Earl's craftsmanship alters the sound of the final product. I did see the comments about the throat, are the dimensions truely off in such a way that the performance will suffer, or is it just cosmetic? I think we'd have to see curves to find out.
I forgot to mention that what about hearing them, they might just knock the buyers off their feet. Let's wait to hear the impressions this is certainly a major factor, probably Earl's top priority.
I too have not bought anything from Earl or heard his speakers, hope to someday. I too am just observing and commenting hoping that we don't lose access to Earl's horns due to this rough start up.
Pete B.
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