Yeah, the more I think about it I think I'll go with a barrier terminal to split the power supply to multiple components. On another note, this decoupling thing interests me.
If I were to go the DV+ route, I would be hooking this up to the Acko Isolator/Re-clocker board which has 5v in that goes to a ADP150 Reg then to a ferrite bead. For decoupling, does the FB need to come before the Reg or does it not matter? By the way, what is the purpose of the decoupling in this application?
I thought of a few more questions regarding C702 and C202. I'm considering using these caps as alternatives to C701 and C201. What are the benefits of the Wima caps? I'm thinking of using these caps... C702 -- 505-MKS2.1/63/5 and C202 -- 505-MKS21.0/63/5
If I were to go the DV+ route, I would be hooking this up to the Acko Isolator/Re-clocker board which has 5v in that goes to a ADP150 Reg then to a ferrite bead. For decoupling, does the FB need to come before the Reg or does it not matter? By the way, what is the purpose of the decoupling in this application?
I thought of a few more questions regarding C702 and C202. I'm considering using these caps as alternatives to C701 and C201. What are the benefits of the Wima caps? I'm thinking of using these caps... C702 -- 505-MKS2.1/63/5 and C202 -- 505-MKS21.0/63/5
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The regs are quite slow (e.g. compared to the signals/rise time of XO) and work just "like a trace" at HF in both directions. Therefore it makes sense to decouple the different parts of a mixed signal circuit by using inductors. Ferrite beads (FB) also include a resistance that reduces the risk of peaks (added damping to LC -> LCR). They also have a (quite small) DC resistance. Thus, as far as I have learned, it makes sense to place the FB in front of the reg (and in front of the local reservoir cap) if the reg only supplies one IC (XO, DAC,...). This way you "clean" the incomming DC, prevent crosstalk of high frequency noise to other parts and keep the DC resistance low. Whenever you supply several ICs with one reg (The flipflops in my DAC) it makes sense to decouple each single IC with a FB after the reg.
The Wimas are used to reflect an alternative case. To be honest I didn't have the time to do own experiments and used Elcaps (Pana FM or oscons) until now. Jean-Paul used BC components/Vishay solid electrolyte MnO2 caps with good results as it seems and those would also fit here
The Wimas might be a bit small (1µF), but I didn't try.
The Wimas are used to reflect an alternative case. To be honest I didn't have the time to do own experiments and used Elcaps (Pana FM or oscons) until now. Jean-Paul used BC components/Vishay solid electrolyte MnO2 caps with good results as it seems and those would also fit here
The Wimas might be a bit small (1µF), but I didn't try.
I think at least part of the point of the series L is to reduce the charging current in the power supply lines to reduce the amount that those traces radiate, by slowing them down so that they are still able to recharge the local caps for the reg but not allow the short current pulses in the PSU circuit that would otherwise create noise. Perhaps not so much about filtering noise that is picked up in the circuit from it's environment.
Oh, didn't know that there is obviously a controversal discussion going on
Maybe one should just take both, common and differential mode noise into acount Maybe qusp can guide to some practical solutions...
the amount of attenuation is not so amazing really
there is one on every low noise power supply I make and liberally scattered through my DAC and ALL over Ackos DACs, always has been since the first version a few years ago; every reg on his board has one. they are all over Ians fifo stuff too. I think maybe you arent looking hard enough
on Ackos regs, the prereg (linear) has CM chokes on it, then the final reg input is SMD CM choke, followed by matched low value resistors, regulator, followed by CRCLCC on every reg; there is ~20-25 CM chokes in a stereo AKD12/18P build. in my build each has its own secondary or battery and every consumer has its own regulator.
but even those (CM chokes) can be somewhat limited in their attenuation by themselves and a bit scattergun unless you know the source and load impedance, as well as exactly what frequency bands you are targeting. the composite filters require matched caps, matched inductors (or CM chokes) matched resistors etc and youre flying blind unless you have real information to act on. just choosing to target the known busy GSM and wifi bands means the Q on the filter isnt going to be able to be that steep, or deep and the response is moved around by everything on the board and every change can have flow on.
there are no real rules of thumb, general practical solutions, its a case by case thing and sims wont get you there either. black magic
depends on what level of noise you are targeting, with the 9023 you have a much easier task than 9012/8
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Have you got some measurements on RF radiation vs regulator to decoupling cap di/dt? The stuff I'm talking about is probably only important on fast digital stuff, flip flops, clock drivers etc.
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Ok, makes sense. Glad I could spark up some debate. I know we're getting into the realm of another board, but in the spirit of DIY could I stack a FB on top of another cap, which is right before the Reg? Something like this might do the trick... 963-BK0603TS601-T. However, as mentioned it might have to be in series and not parallel.
Then again, splitting the supply before hand is more practical.
It sounds like this would be quite the experiment. Did I read your schematic right? It does say 100nF for C702 and 1uF for C202. For now, it does seem Elcaps are the way to go.The Wimas are used to reflect an alternative case. To be honest I didn't have the time to do own experiments and used Elcaps (Pana FM or oscons) until now. Jean-Paul used BC components/Vishay solid electrolyte MnO2 caps with good results as it seems and those would also fit here
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Page 10 of this pdf - http://www.emclabinfo.com/emclab/portal/content/files/quote/EMC_how_to_reduce_RF_emissions.pdf - shows series L on the +ve trace directly before decoupling cap.
Stacking the FB on top of the cap wouldn't work since it would short the +V to GND (FBs have low DC resistance). They must indeed be used in series (cut trace and scratch solder resist)!
Sorry for the confusion, but the values are just place holders too. The PCB layout program just needs parts with corresponding cases and values etc. to work
@qusp: thanks for your hints
I did indeed not inspect the 9018 boards from acko too close nor do I have schematics. Concentrated on the ES9023 anyway and this has its own noise source Others (like TP) don't use CM chokes AFAIK For the next projects I will take this into account.@hochopeper: good link, thanks
I have a pair of Elna Silmic IIs (22uF 25v) that could fit in the C201 & C701 positions. My concern is if they have enough ripple current (60mA) and I'm pretty sure they're not low ESR like an FM cap. Would they be fine in the mentioned positions? I also have some Nichicon KW series caps - 647-UKW1H220MDD - that would fit into C21 and C31. However, like C201 and C701 the FM series is called for in the BoM. Could I get away with using them or stick with FM series for all caps?
Joachim used J310 in his original design and so did I in my builds while EUVL prefers J111:
So both will work very good as cascodes in this buffer
cheers, Daniel
So both will work very good as cascodes in this buffer
cheers, Daniel
I have now tested this long enough so that i can say some words.
First i just hooked it up the my Mac Book Pro and used Itunes.
Although it sounded not bad i did not get the exitement i had on the Frickelfest.
There we used a Windows laptop with external harddisk and Foobar.
That went into a calvin buffer and then into the amps and speakers.
The sound we got there was huge and dynamic without any spit.
So i was thinking what had going wrong. I immediately had the idea that Itunes is not optimal so i switched to Audirvana. Go the the website. It does so many things that space is not enough here. One thing to mention is that Audirvana put the complete content of a playlist into a solid state memory and it breaks the Kernel.
I then added a buffer with analog volume control, like we did on the Frickelfest.
This time a BJT bootstrapped doamond buffer i wanted to compare to the Calvin as a quick fix. That went into my tube mono block and into various prototype speakers.
The sound i got now is pretty awesome. Very good resolution, fully fleshed out tonal colours, the same big size picture we got on Frickelfest. In some way it even sounded better then my Forsell Air Reference combo that had cost 40.000 DM back in the old days. I could clearly hear more details like moist in the mouth of a singer ore clapping sounds while listening to a bass clarinet.
The somewhat soft treble of he Forsell was replaced with more finely polished extension. The bass had much more sock and the sound was more dynamic. It went softer and louder, the same time.
The real surprise came when i listened to high resolution material. John Marks from Sterophile had send me a copy of a 24Bit 192kHz mastertape over dropbox.
It was unedited, life organ music. Pretty amazing : i was IN THE CHURCH.
It was so realistic, even off axis that i was jelling for my son and wife.
We sat there in ave. High Res is the way to go for realistic sound.
I will not put my turntable aside, no i never will. It is just so emotional and i love the ritual but i will sure explore High Res in the future.
Cury man, hats off, i am happy.
P.S. i also have the EUVL version. Plroblem is that his one has SPDIF and the Curryman has an USB shield. I will find a way to compare them.
First i just hooked it up the my Mac Book Pro and used Itunes.
Although it sounded not bad i did not get the exitement i had on the Frickelfest.
There we used a Windows laptop with external harddisk and Foobar.
That went into a calvin buffer and then into the amps and speakers.
The sound we got there was huge and dynamic without any spit.
So i was thinking what had going wrong. I immediately had the idea that Itunes is not optimal so i switched to Audirvana. Go the the website. It does so many things that space is not enough here. One thing to mention is that Audirvana put the complete content of a playlist into a solid state memory and it breaks the Kernel.
I then added a buffer with analog volume control, like we did on the Frickelfest.
This time a BJT bootstrapped doamond buffer i wanted to compare to the Calvin as a quick fix. That went into my tube mono block and into various prototype speakers.
The sound i got now is pretty awesome. Very good resolution, fully fleshed out tonal colours, the same big size picture we got on Frickelfest. In some way it even sounded better then my Forsell Air Reference combo that had cost 40.000 DM back in the old days. I could clearly hear more details like moist in the mouth of a singer ore clapping sounds while listening to a bass clarinet.
The somewhat soft treble of he Forsell was replaced with more finely polished extension. The bass had much more sock and the sound was more dynamic. It went softer and louder, the same time.
The real surprise came when i listened to high resolution material. John Marks from Sterophile had send me a copy of a 24Bit 192kHz mastertape over dropbox.
It was unedited, life organ music. Pretty amazing : i was IN THE CHURCH.
It was so realistic, even off axis that i was jelling for my son and wife.
We sat there in ave. High Res is the way to go for realistic sound.
I will not put my turntable aside, no i never will. It is just so emotional and i love the ritual but i will sure explore High Res in the future.
Cury man, hats off, i am happy.
P.S. i also have the EUVL version. Plroblem is that his one has SPDIF and the Curryman has an USB shield. I will find a way to compare them.
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Really looking forward to seeing it
May I ask: are you doing your own USB interface or will you use an existing one? Just for your info: I combined Joachims version of my DAC with the amanero which works really good! (no isolator or reclocker as i am quite convinced that it don't really help in combination with the ES9023, however I will try).
May I ask: are you doing your own USB interface or will you use an existing one? Just for your info: I combined Joachims version of my DAC with the amanero which works really good! (no isolator or reclocker as i am quite convinced that it don't really help in combination with the ES9023, however I will try).
Wait till we release our USB solution with balanced 9023, LDR volume control, JFET buffer, .....
Patrick
Buffer, Software
Joachim,
thanks for your report. Glad that you like the DAC
It seems to me the Buffer used on the DAC board is quite sensible with respect to the following stages? Or do you think the biggest improvement came from the playback software? At the Frickelfest we used foobar with kernel streaming plugin. AFAIK part of he tracks on the FF were also HD (probably 24/96) but not all.
If I find the time I will do a Version with the calvin buffer (PP or SE?)
Best regards, Daniel
Joachim,
thanks for your report. Glad that you like the DAC
It seems to me the Buffer used on the DAC board is quite sensible with respect to the following stages? Or do you think the biggest improvement came from the playback software? At the Frickelfest we used foobar with kernel streaming plugin. AFAIK part of he tracks on the FF were also HD (probably 24/96) but not all.
If I find the time I will do a Version with the calvin buffer (PP or SE?)
Best regards, Daniel
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