I would like you to measure graz ribbons properly and lets see how it performs against my ribbon.
I do not have Graz ribbons................only 25 year old Apogee stock ribbons..
do you have measuring equipment ?............
No...ears....that wont help you..
I put in a tube amp before i pull the bars off the other ribbons....
What i hear with the bars....is a more forword sound.....like more mid..
this seems about right.....these bars add mass to the ribbon...added color..not bad
with out the bars added mass.... like graz monting setup these ribbon ....sound more exstendde.....little less mid..maybe......the image is expaned....sounds to me like a flater frequency response ......i like it
looking at the pic...the graz replacement ribbon....look like he has added risers.....at the monting holes....there blue....look to me like even if you put the bars back in.. on his ribbon....the bars would not hit the ribbon,just the blue small risers....the stock Apogee ribbons don't have any risers...the bars set right on the ribbons...........an add the mass....
as with most things....most people well just stay with stock setups......if 25 years ago this setup was what Apogee thought was right....if it not broke...don't fix it..
will that ok..............but graz must think this monting setup sounds better.....
i can...an well..try ...anything ones....i fig i can always go back..
I like the sound of these ribbons speakers....there cost today... is like free....$2oo a pr....an having fun..hehe
it works for me...................
I do not have Graz ribbons................only 25 year old Apogee stock ribbons..
do you have measuring equipment ?............
No...ears....that wont help you..
I put in a tube amp before i pull the bars off the other ribbons....
What i hear with the bars....is a more forword sound.....like more mid..
this seems about right.....these bars add mass to the ribbon...added color..not bad
with out the bars added mass.... like graz monting setup these ribbon ....sound more exstendde.....little less mid..maybe......the image is expaned....sounds to me like a flater frequency response ......i like it
looking at the pic...the graz replacement ribbon....look like he has added risers.....at the monting holes....there blue....look to me like even if you put the bars back in.. on his ribbon....the bars would not hit the ribbon,just the blue small risers....the stock Apogee ribbons don't have any risers...the bars set right on the ribbons...........an add the mass....
as with most things....most people well just stay with stock setups......if 25 years ago this setup was what Apogee thought was right....if it not broke...don't fix it..
will that ok..............but graz must think this monting setup sounds better.....
i can...an well..try ...anything ones....i fig i can always go back..
I like the sound of these ribbons speakers....there cost today... is like free....$2oo a pr....an having fun..hehe
it works for me...................
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The bars do not add mass to the ribbon.
How should this be possible?????
They just make the effective ribbon length a little bit shorter , apx 1 % and maybe the ribbon is suspended with a well definition, but the new epoxy connector plates are more stable anyway.
Loose ribbons act no more like a spring, thus they are no more on the middle of the magnetic gap.
Too much tension change the characteristic of the ribbon and the corrugation is lost almost, thus unwanted resonances and instabilities comes in to the game.
Retension is short time solution and cost just time to do it.
How should this be possible?????
They just make the effective ribbon length a little bit shorter , apx 1 % and maybe the ribbon is suspended with a well definition, but the new epoxy connector plates are more stable anyway.
Loose ribbons act no more like a spring, thus they are no more on the middle of the magnetic gap.
Too much tension change the characteristic of the ribbon and the corrugation is lost almost, thus unwanted resonances and instabilities comes in to the game.
Retension is short time solution and cost just time to do it.
Thanks for any an all input on these old ribbons I have owen from the 1990s..
"They just make the effective ribbon length a little bit shorter , apx 1 % and maybe the ribbon is suspended with a well" ...
Say what you well.....doset take much to add mass to a ribbon....!
"They just make the effective ribbon length a little bit shorter , apx 1 % and maybe the ribbon is suspended with a well definition"
The 26" ribbon that only has 23" of output.....
Out of the 5pr of Stages an 3pr of Minors........... even if ribbon my be 26"long
an in all of my stages....the ribbon is 30".....an folded over at each end..........that means there is 2" behind the bar.........so I know there mass added there... but can not be changed....less I get Graz replacement type ribbons...that bill has done with his Minors an posted pic...with No bars used............
Now Apogee did add Magnets....for more output on the later ribbon to get the 26" output.....I have had none......
But you HAD to add the suspension peace on the ribbon....this pulles the ribbon all the way to the back of the magnet gap at about 11-12" up from the bottem....an add mass by putting a rubber silicone or some type of glue on the back of the ribbon.................if the suspension peace were not added the ribbons could rip.....the magnets were right up to the top an bottem of the ribbons..
"They just make the effective ribbon length a little bit shorter , apx 1 % and maybe the ribbon is suspended with a well" ...
Say what you well.....doset take much to add mass to a ribbon....!
"They just make the effective ribbon length a little bit shorter , apx 1 % and maybe the ribbon is suspended with a well definition"
The 26" ribbon that only has 23" of output.....
Out of the 5pr of Stages an 3pr of Minors........... even if ribbon my be 26"long
an in all of my stages....the ribbon is 30".....an folded over at each end..........that means there is 2" behind the bar.........so I know there mass added there... but can not be changed....less I get Graz replacement type ribbons...that bill has done with his Minors an posted pic...with No bars used............
Now Apogee did add Magnets....for more output on the later ribbon to get the 26" output.....I have had none......
But you HAD to add the suspension peace on the ribbon....this pulles the ribbon all the way to the back of the magnet gap at about 11-12" up from the bottem....an add mass by putting a rubber silicone or some type of glue on the back of the ribbon.................if the suspension peace were not added the ribbons could rip.....the magnets were right up to the top an bottem of the ribbons..
Sorry , no added mass. The ribs are clamped under the bar. Ribbon mass comes from aluminium, capton, and bonding glue. Thats all.
So the effective ribbon mass is exactly this length between the bars, so in fact it is lesser mass since the ribbon is shorter thus . The bar does not move, nor do the screws or the ribbon behind the bar.
Thats physic and geometry. Nothing else.
I have Stages here, Scintilla, Diva and Full Range and had Minors and so on. I know them.
So the effective ribbon mass is exactly this length between the bars, so in fact it is lesser mass since the ribbon is shorter thus . The bar does not move, nor do the screws or the ribbon behind the bar.
Thats physic and geometry. Nothing else.
I have Stages here, Scintilla, Diva and Full Range and had Minors and so on. I know them.
So you are saying there just mass being added to the end fiberglass mont by the bars.......?...
pic 3.... the bar is not hiting... the free hanging part of the ribbon........... just the fiberglass mont.....there for no mass would be added to the ribbon .............!.....
My way of thinking was.... that becase the aluminum foil of the ribbon runs under the bars.....the bars mass would be added to the ribbons output... it sounds that way....to me becase it makes the sound darker....
So Garz is adding mass to the ribbons monts only... ... with the metal washers an what look like a clear rubber washer............with only the yello capton gluded over the top of the aluminum ribbon........
I well say to my ears I would never use the bars......Garz way of monting sound way better.....So with Garz new 26" $400.US pr of ribbons... your not just getting new ribbons...just the monting chang alone gives better sound......wish getting rit of the bars on my old stages stock ribbons... was sas ezey to do .....with out the cost!
thanks
pic 3.... the bar is not hiting... the free hanging part of the ribbon........... just the fiberglass mont.....there for no mass would be added to the ribbon .............!.....
My way of thinking was.... that becase the aluminum foil of the ribbon runs under the bars.....the bars mass would be added to the ribbons output... it sounds that way....to me becase it makes the sound darker....
So Garz is adding mass to the ribbons monts only... ... with the metal washers an what look like a clear rubber washer............with only the yello capton gluded over the top of the aluminum ribbon........
I well say to my ears I would never use the bars......Garz way of monting sound way better.....So with Garz new 26" $400.US pr of ribbons... your not just getting new ribbons...just the monting chang alone gives better sound......wish getting rit of the bars on my old stages stock ribbons... was sas ezey to do .....with out the cost!
thanks
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The moved mass is exactly between the bars or with Graz Kit between the epoxy boards,where the yellow capton ends, just the free hanging ribbon.
All other is mounting mass and has no influence.
I never made listening tests bar versus Graz Kit, but it can be possible that the bars create some damping. Up to your ears.
But Graz ribs sound better than original stock, the difference comes from the glue between ribbon and capton which have different properties.
And the kit is way more elegant to install.
Have fun with your minors.
All other is mounting mass and has no influence.
I never made listening tests bar versus Graz Kit, but it can be possible that the bars create some damping. Up to your ears.
But Graz ribs sound better than original stock, the difference comes from the glue between ribbon and capton which have different properties.
And the kit is way more elegant to install.
Have fun with your minors.
All I can say ..........is the removel of the bars..........SHocking!
like my friend said............what the hell is this.........
My rule on speakers....has been....if a speaker is 4' tall...the image hight my go to 6'...............6' tall mabe 8-9'.................but these 4'Minors.......now can have a 8'image with out these stock Bars Apogee used on these 26" ribbons.....
I don't like the sound of the stages are the Minors on there....what I say was a after thought...................Stands....to my ears it pull the meat off the bone..
makes there sound then....on the floor thay sound just right....Now with the ....Garz work on the replacement ribbons...an the removel of the bars to mont the ribbons.....just that own it own...........make the sound of a totly diff speaker!
So what would I say the sound inporovement is to this Mod.......Full Extension ....from 800-1000hz up................smooth as silk to the ear!
The sound I always though.....a free hanging driver.. with surface area of at lest 20 1"tweeters ..................would have....!
Only sound I have ever heard...........as if not better than that ESLs..
My Stages can even get close to this sound...an well not even be played till I get the new ribbons!
I must say ...if not for this post I may have ever done this Mod................thanks to all... an bill for his money well spent on the Garz replacement ribbon..........
how did we live with out sites like....DiyAudio
like my friend said............what the hell is this.........
My rule on speakers....has been....if a speaker is 4' tall...the image hight my go to 6'...............6' tall mabe 8-9'.................but these 4'Minors.......now can have a 8'image with out these stock Bars Apogee used on these 26" ribbons.....
I don't like the sound of the stages are the Minors on there....what I say was a after thought...................Stands....to my ears it pull the meat off the bone..
makes there sound then....on the floor thay sound just right....Now with the ....Garz work on the replacement ribbons...an the removel of the bars to mont the ribbons.....just that own it own...........make the sound of a totly diff speaker!
So what would I say the sound inporovement is to this Mod.......Full Extension ....from 800-1000hz up................smooth as silk to the ear!
The sound I always though.....a free hanging driver.. with surface area of at lest 20 1"tweeters ..................would have....!
Only sound I have ever heard...........as if not better than that ESLs..
My Stages can even get close to this sound...an well not even be played till I get the new ribbons!
I must say ...if not for this post I may have ever done this Mod................thanks to all... an bill for his money well spent on the Garz replacement ribbon..........
how did we live with out sites like....DiyAudio
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Graz's new replacement kit just makes the ribbons easier to install, there's nothing wrong with the old system with the bars, just a tad fussy working with the ribbon and returns 
PS: Just got my new Graz KLM 5 midrange ribbons for my Diva's, FN expensive close to 800 CDN by time landed, very very nice ribbon tho,
PS: Just got my new Graz KLM 5 midrange ribbons for my Diva's, FN expensive close to 800 CDN by time landed, very very nice ribbon tho,
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"Graz's new replacement kit just makes the ribbons easier to install, there's nothing wrong with the old system with the bars, just a tad fussy working with the ribbon and returns."...........Ok!
I don't recall....ever saying there was any thing wrong with the bars!
Hears what I did say.......
"before i pull the bars off the other ribbons....
What i hear with the bars....is a more forword sound.....like more mid..
this seems about right.....these bars add mass to the ribbon...added color..[not bad]"
"My way of thinking was.... that becase the aluminum foil of the ribbon runs under the bars.....the bars mass would be added to the ribbons output... it sounds that way....to me becase it makes the sound darker...."
"So Graz is adding mass to the ribbons monts only... ... with the metal washers an what look like a clear rubber washer............with only the yello capton gluded over the top of the aluminum ribbon........
[I well say to my ears I would never use the bars.....]"
An you know there not better sound from not using the bars....because..Hehe
you have owned all the Apogees types speakers.. an have put new Garz in all them.....
you have put the bar in an out on the stock ribbons...an you hear No diff...
Graz told you this....but he make his ribbons with a blue rizer so that if you do use the bars............thay well never lay on top of the aluminum foil part of the ribbon............ Like ALL the Stock ribbons DO!
Or.............
you have a room that as big as a High school basketball ball court...............
An can hear better than anyone that's ever posted here....so you know whats sounds right.............hehe
I try hard to be clear that I only CAN speak for my self from my on Experience........not just what others may say....
I well say....
the only Big rooms I have heard....never have sounded good...an I would never feel I could use them as a “reference point”....for others....
But that just me..........hehe
I don't recall....ever saying there was any thing wrong with the bars!
Hears what I did say.......
"before i pull the bars off the other ribbons....
What i hear with the bars....is a more forword sound.....like more mid..
this seems about right.....these bars add mass to the ribbon...added color..[not bad]"
"My way of thinking was.... that becase the aluminum foil of the ribbon runs under the bars.....the bars mass would be added to the ribbons output... it sounds that way....to me becase it makes the sound darker...."
"So Graz is adding mass to the ribbons monts only... ... with the metal washers an what look like a clear rubber washer............with only the yello capton gluded over the top of the aluminum ribbon........
[I well say to my ears I would never use the bars.....]"
An you know there not better sound from not using the bars....because..Hehe
you have owned all the Apogees types speakers.. an have put new Garz in all them.....
you have put the bar in an out on the stock ribbons...an you hear No diff...
Graz told you this....but he make his ribbons with a blue rizer so that if you do use the bars............thay well never lay on top of the aluminum foil part of the ribbon............ Like ALL the Stock ribbons DO!
Or.............
you have a room that as big as a High school basketball ball court...............
An can hear better than anyone that's ever posted here....so you know whats sounds right.............hehe
I try hard to be clear that I only CAN speak for my self from my on Experience........not just what others may say....
I well say....
the only Big rooms I have heard....never have sounded good...an I would never feel I could use them as a “reference point”....for others....
But that just me..........hehe
Just to be clear.........
pic1.........new ribbon....see the blue rizers..... to keep the added pressure... from being added too the foil ribbon driver ..
pic2..... stock ribbon from the Minors.....you see no rizers....High monting pressure on the old stock foil of the ribbon......what I was calling added mass..........an well chang the sound!...........
Now the stock Stages ribbon has a diff setp.....but with the same bars.....the ribbon foil...it self with the capton.... has the pressure added ....so the newer type ribbon well sound way diff.............for the better I think!
One thing I hope some of use.... have learned.......... in high end audio......these small things can make a BIG diff in sound............
An putting pressure on top of ...........Feather Lite foil voice coils....well chang the sound!
pic1.........new ribbon....see the blue rizers..... to keep the added pressure... from being added too the foil ribbon driver ..
pic2..... stock ribbon from the Minors.....you see no rizers....High monting pressure on the old stock foil of the ribbon......what I was calling added mass..........an well chang the sound!...........
Now the stock Stages ribbon has a diff setp.....but with the same bars.....the ribbon foil...it self with the capton.... has the pressure added ....so the newer type ribbon well sound way diff.............for the better I think!
One thing I hope some of use.... have learned.......... in high end audio......these small things can make a BIG diff in sound............
An putting pressure on top of ...........Feather Lite foil voice coils....well chang the sound!
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tyu, dunno where you get your info, but my new kit has no riser to raise the ribbon nor dampen it, truth is the orginal bar location places the ribbon about .040 closer to the front off centre of magnetic gap, I was going to fix that, BUT Graz says to leave as is, as they were built that way, so any addition to that would even raise it higher, those new clamp plates work great on systems not using return wires, but would be an absolute pain on the one's that use returns. as no clamping method an ali solder connections are CRAP.
you know in my other post.. pic1... thats a Garz replacement ribbon....for the minors right .....
An for the diff I hear.....anyone can hear.....two ears...yes my buds heard the diff from the other room.....
BY the Way give us some pic......of you new ribbons...it may help some one..some day...........
if you wont talk about your...
PS: Just got my new Graz KLM 5 midrange ribbons for my Diva's,
I don't have Diva,s............never well.....to big ...BUZZ
this is about the Stage An Minors.....Best MT Apogee ever made....CAN be driven with 50 watts...same ribbon.....like in the pic..hehe
Or is this a joke ............you got all new Garz ribbons for all your other Apogees Centaurs.......you do have the minors ......An hes pulled the rizer off the newer ribbons................right
An for the diff I hear.....anyone can hear.....two ears...yes my buds heard the diff from the other room.....
BY the Way give us some pic......of you new ribbons...it may help some one..some day...........
if you wont talk about your...
PS: Just got my new Graz KLM 5 midrange ribbons for my Diva's,
I don't have Diva,s............never well.....to big ...BUZZ
this is about the Stage An Minors.....Best MT Apogee ever made....CAN be driven with 50 watts...same ribbon.....like in the pic..hehe
Or is this a joke ............you got all new Garz ribbons for all your other Apogees Centaurs.......you do have the minors ......An hes pulled the rizer off the newer ribbons................right
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There may be some audible benefits of the Graz mount, but there is one major benefit, which is reduced stress. Aluminium is not a good metal to clamp one end and wiggle the other. It work fractures. Not good in a ribbon you want to last. The Graz mount reduces the concentration of stress on the ribbon. In theory this should reduce bof the main sources of failure in the ribbon.
For me that was worth the entry price.
For me that was worth the entry price.
Bill thanks......
.Aluminium is not a good metal to clamp one end and wiggle the other. It work fractures. Not good in a ribbon you want to last.....
But that's what the end peace still dose to the ribbon...right.....
so the bar clamp is added...it dose give more Mid to the sound of the MT.... Darker...some may say richer
.My point of posting my Experience......was so people could get some insite on how these ribbons can sound.... with out the added stress made by the bar setup...............with out spening the money........
an the Stages....what a upgread has to be to the sound.... with the same New Garz ribbons like you have...............
.Aluminium is not a good metal to clamp one end and wiggle the other. It work fractures. Not good in a ribbon you want to last.....
But that's what the end peace still dose to the ribbon...right.....
so the bar clamp is added...it dose give more Mid to the sound of the MT.... Darker...some may say richer
.My point of posting my Experience......was so people could get some insite on how these ribbons can sound.... with out the added stress made by the bar setup...............with out spening the money........
an the Stages....what a upgread has to be to the sound.... with the same New Garz ribbons like you have...............
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the 26" mr won't even hold a candle light to Scintilla foil onlys, yes there good, BUT not that good.
May Be .......So that ribbon you just replacet....hehe....how did you cook it....right over driving....No you don't know!....good luck with that..
.....I well just call you buzzzzzzzzzzzz.....hehe..Look you think all your speakers...room setup is all that..............an good for you....but I have had the Duetta sig......................................................no thanks..
NEVER in my life have I ever heard of a MR ribbon cracking at the bar from vibration, if any would, be the foil only as no backing is used
An the funny thing is..... the only place I ever heard of any 26" faling...
an I thing bills fail. there...or eather he helpet it..........
you do know the foils is the driver.......................hehe Buzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
May Be .......So that ribbon you just replacet....hehe....how did you cook it....right over driving....No you don't know!....good luck with that..
.....I well just call you buzzzzzzzzzzzz.....hehe..Look you think all your speakers...room setup is all that..............an good for you....but I have had the Duetta sig......................................................no thanks..
NEVER in my life have I ever heard of a MR ribbon cracking at the bar from vibration, if any would, be the foil only as no backing is used
An the funny thing is..... the only place I ever heard of any 26" faling...
an I thing bills fail. there...or eather he helpet it..........
you do know the foils is the driver.......................hehe Buzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
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tyu, I KNOW why the ribbon went, hooked a krell to it putting out as much DC as AC and bull whipped it to death , not Apogee product failure
Bill not saying it can't happen, but yours are first I heard of, also the ribbons are very still at mounting points, heck they shouldn't move at all unless played at insanely sound levels
Bill not saying it can't happen, but yours are first I heard of, also the ribbons are very still at mounting points, heck they shouldn't move at all unless played at insanely sound levels
Think about it, the ribbon moves albeit a small amount along its whole length, until it is suddenly clamped. Over years and decades this WILL fracture it at that point. hopefully later rather than sooner. Mine did travel a lot which probably accelerated the failure.
"not Apogee product failure"..............
Well the ribbon failed!.........Why...Amp type.... I don't need to own anymore...been there...done that.....
I can get great ouput.... an that with a sweet 50-60 watt tube amp...........thay well be know driving your buzzzzzzzzzzers....with tubes...........hehe
But the two pr of Minors MT I have now..... ribbons are still good....but you can see the stress at the top an bottem.....right at the bar....
Well the ribbon failed!.........Why...Amp type.... I don't need to own anymore...been there...done that.....
I can get great ouput.... an that with a sweet 50-60 watt tube amp...........thay well be know driving your buzzzzzzzzzzers....with tubes...........hehe
But the two pr of Minors MT I have now..... ribbons are still good....but you can see the stress at the top an bottem.....right at the bar....
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