finneybear said:
Anonymous figure, well, that maybe true in a way, but isn't that the property of Internet? Do you post all your personal information, home phone number, address and even your photo and stuff all over the web? At least me and my friends won't.
Not really, group buy is one thing, but this is just commerical activity disguised as group buy.
If he was REALLY doing that, he might have the curtesy of contacting Pass first, but, no he did not.
If you have personal contact with Limin Wu before, you won't say that. I have been in contact with him on and off over the past few years, and he is not what I would call an trust worthy person.
Well, may not be that fat, but it wouldn't be bad at all.
Well, I'd have a more positive thought on Diyzone if they had deal with a lot of their past stuff more positively...
For example, they called their Bluesky pre amp circuit "a performance circuit", needs "experienced DIYer" to get the most of it. However, users experiences a lot of problem with the instability of the circuits, and even if it does not exhibit such problems, the slew rate of the circuit is so slow that 10KHz square wave becomes sawtooth wave... They even posted that article on their web site... Let me find it... Ah, here it is...
http://www.diyzone.net/article.php?sid=386
Roll to the bottom of the page and see the photo...
As wel know it, he did not. Haven't you seen the part that Mr. Pass was letting his distributor in Taiwan loose on them?
Nelson Pass said:
I would advise you to have a friend who knows Chinese to check his web site and his forums... I'll post a few pointers here, but by all means surf it all.
This is the part they talked about my message and copied it over.
http://www.diyzone.net/phorum/read.php?f=5&i=169486&t=169486
This is how thinly they think of the right of the designer/owner.
http://www.diyzone.net/phorum/read.php?f=5&i=169501&t=168579
Last I checked, altavista's babble fish does not read traditional Chinese, so you might need human translator, but that would work much better anyways.
Nelson Pass said:
finneybear said:
What I feel is that you are tying to set Pass up for something instead. Now how does that feel?
and WHAT permission are you talking about... Mr. Pass had said that he never gave the permission for commerical sales of the kits. Are you trying to imply that you can give that permission instead of Mr. Pass? A parts bundle is one thing, I don't think any would be against that. However a complete kit is.
finneybear said:
Don't you kid me... Pass is ALREADY FAMOUS in Taiwan... For TRUE group buys, you need to look at PRBS, where they actually do it for fun, not profit.
As for IP, if you know Chinese so well, you'd know that Mr. Wu have decleared war on the smaller sites, claiming that he've been attacked with false claims. And boasted that he will match their product line, item for item.
Well, for one thing, he never produced such things as PROOF, just words spiced up with emotions.
He respect IP? I don't think so, a lier is a lier is a lier...
jewilson said:finneybear,
It is you; you are the one that dose not get it. Therefore, what if I could make a kit, so a person could print and counterfeit $20 bills would that be ok in you universe. I could sell the kit make only make a small profit. That would be all right!
Haha, nice try, but way off topic!
The correct example should be: The creator of the $20 bill says, OK, here is the design. You can come out any means, make any tools to produce the $20 bills. As far as you do not use the $20 in public, not try to sell the tool for money, you are fine with me, I will not consider it as a counterfeit. Now someone comes out and offers people that, hey, if you have a hard time to make the tooling, I can help you on this. I will prepare the parts for you so you can do the job more easily. I charge you the money for the service, but again, keep the $20 bill for yourself only. Then suddenly those who made the tools by themselves jumped out and cried foul. They kept criticizing the *kit* maker what a wrong doing he has done. The truth? The truth is that everyone is able to do this simply because the creator allows you to dupliate the design. It does not make one more right than the other. Simply making your own tooling give you more justice? Remember that the guy is just offering you the service for preparing the parts, make your work easier. He makes money from this, not from the end product.
Since I have bought lots of parts from Asia these days, I can give you some picture there. Basically the part prices are not any cheaper in Taiwan. Most parts used in the Aleph-X still have to be imported to Taiwan. DIYZONE should be able to get some volume discount but not by that much. I had done some calculation. If you do collect the parts here in the states, you will have to pay over $600 for them, assumed that a very crude case is ok with you. The only thing which is much cheaper in Taiwan is the case itself actually. I came up a number around $420-$430 for the parts in total there, again, under the assumption that they got a very good volume discount. This translates to a gross profit only $20 to $30. And it will take them three months to run the project.
I paid $50 for my friend to do the FET matching, BTW. Oh, and DIYZONE made a special tool just to do the FET matching. It is not a minimal wage job as someone has mentioned.
Again, I am really tired of people here keep saying what is wrong is wrong is wrong. No one has ever really tried to say things which are positive? Why is that? Is really building an Aleph-X based on Chad's PCB give you that much right to criticize others practice? How about I pay Victoria to make transformers for me? Should Victoria make profit for this? Can I pay someone to do FET matching for me? Or to follow your DIY philosophy, I have to do the matching by myself? I can't pay any commerial firm for the serivces even when they do this not really for profit?
Listen, what I have been repeating here again and again is that it is time for us to set up some rules. I do not like to see people use some fuzzy rules or free-will to judge things. I am sure if we set up a rule such as whenever you make more then 5 PCBs, you will have to pay the designer some fees per PCB. If we have this kind of rule set, I am pretty sure DIYZONE will love to follow. Can't we just have some constructive talk like this here?
As for the issue of number 500. Well, it just happened there were that many DIYers loved Aleph-X in Taiwan. Taiwan may be a small island on the map, but it does have lots of DIYers. What's wrong with that? Even DIYZONE was amazed with the number. So, do not use the number 500 to attack DIYZONE. How about we say Chad has sold over 2000 PCBs?
Pass, as you can see, DIYZONE could come out an Aleph-X group-buy that big in Taiwan. They even had to stop accepting more orders, and said no-more to those missed the ship. Probably you can consider selling some form of kits over there yourself? Or probably the distributor is not doing their job right there?
Anyway, I am very busy working with the patent application now. No time to hang around here. Good luck everyone!
Peter Daniel said:
I have a few of that on hand... Was fun for the little while, and yup... the pop and clicks had finally forced me to use a carbon film (a pretty good one at that...
) to replace the stepped attenuator kit there.There are even fan of it that are willing to go to great length to avocate that kit. Even claimed that there's little difference between that and other kits, claiming that the mechanical aging problem is not a problem at all... Ah well...
finneybear said:Oh just want to let everyone know, this Maniac guy is a friend to the owner of
DIY firm KEC Electronics in Taiwan. The owner used to work for DIYZONE then left
to start his own shop. PRBS is also a competitor to DIYZONE.
Indeed... I *WAS* a friend of Limin Wu from before as well, almost let him have a programming article that I wrote for PalmOS... Thank God he didn't get it, I'd rather have it sit there and rot. The reason for that? Well, like I said, Mr. Wu have no respect for IP... None. I'd rather lose the few bucks I can claim from that article than lettimg him have it. It is that bad.
As well... PRBS is more or less a for fun site, it is NOT really a commerical site at all, and thus not a competitor to DIYZONE.
Now then, I have not said anything about either side that's not justified. Just try and PROVE IT that being friend of KEC had made me say anything unjust...
Well, just want everybody know why I am not interested in
dealing with Maniac from Taiwan. He finally admits that he has
a tight connection with this PRBS site/firm. You know what?
This PRBS has done group-buys on the following items:
The case for Aleph:
http://myweb.hinet.net/home1/prbstech/A2case/A2-case.htm
Aleph-2 PCB and driver PCB:
http://myweb.hinet.net/home1/prbstech/Aleph_PCB/PCB-F.htm
Matched FETs:
http://myweb.hinet.net/home1/prbstech/Order/IRFP240.htm
It's nice to know that at least they put Pass Labs copyright on the PCB,
but in general, I can not see much difference from what
DIYZONE has been doing. It's a joke to say one group-buy is more chastised
than the other one? To me, both DIYZONE and PRBS are
in the same boat. It is hilarious to see how one tries to
attack the other one. I have seen enough nasty business practices
among those Taiwanese shops. It's not my interest to get
involved. Plus, this really has nothing to do with what we
are concerned here.
Originally I thought that we should prohibit any kit sales,
but realised this was not practical at all. A company can still come
out separate FET, case, and PCB part, etc, packages for sale.
One can simply order those packages, and make them a kit himself/herself.
So, charging fees on the PCB is the best way to control the
proliferation of a design. Take Aleph-X as one example. The PCB
contains Pass'es patent, and definitely both Pass and Grey have
copyright on it. They both have the right to charge at least
the copyright fee on it. How about, say, $20 per PCB?
500 Aleph-X means 1000 PCBs. $20 x 2 x 500 = $20,000.
$20,000 probably means nothing to Pass, probably is just
some pocket money to Grey, but, hey, it is still some nice
income to average designers? Sure, you can charge more or less,
depends on what you think is right. This will also encourage more
people to share their designs with us? Actually this is exactly
what many designers have done already.
Pass may want to treat this thing as a student discount
(aren't DIYers just like students to Mr. Pass?), charge a symbolic $20
per PCB? As far as people are not selling assembled PCBs, or something
which has been adjusted, tested (it really amazes me that some keep
saying selling a kit is bad. Have they ever thought about even
after you solder everything together, adjustment and testing are
also a big thing to do? You think everyone on the block can do it?),
it will be OK?
Just a thought to share with everyone. It's the time to set up
the rule of game now. For those, me included, who got Chad's PCBs,
should call yourself lucky, and be thankful for Pass'es and Grey's
kindness. For any PCB group-buys from now on, everyone has to
pay a fee for it. The price may be higher, but it will give you
a peace of mind. You know you are not taking advanage of someone
else's hard work.
At the same time, I wish those who have Chad's PCBs stop attacking
DIYZONE's practice from now on. Be honest, we are more or less
in the same boat, too!
Ok, here is all what I can say. Super busy today. Enough mumbling.
dealing with Maniac from Taiwan. He finally admits that he has
a tight connection with this PRBS site/firm. You know what?
This PRBS has done group-buys on the following items:
The case for Aleph:
http://myweb.hinet.net/home1/prbstech/A2case/A2-case.htm
Aleph-2 PCB and driver PCB:
http://myweb.hinet.net/home1/prbstech/Aleph_PCB/PCB-F.htm
Matched FETs:
http://myweb.hinet.net/home1/prbstech/Order/IRFP240.htm
It's nice to know that at least they put Pass Labs copyright on the PCB,
but in general, I can not see much difference from what
DIYZONE has been doing. It's a joke to say one group-buy is more chastised
than the other one? To me, both DIYZONE and PRBS are
in the same boat. It is hilarious to see how one tries to
attack the other one. I have seen enough nasty business practices
among those Taiwanese shops. It's not my interest to get
involved. Plus, this really has nothing to do with what we
are concerned here.
Originally I thought that we should prohibit any kit sales,
but realised this was not practical at all. A company can still come
out separate FET, case, and PCB part, etc, packages for sale.
One can simply order those packages, and make them a kit himself/herself.
So, charging fees on the PCB is the best way to control the
proliferation of a design. Take Aleph-X as one example. The PCB
contains Pass'es patent, and definitely both Pass and Grey have
copyright on it. They both have the right to charge at least
the copyright fee on it. How about, say, $20 per PCB?
500 Aleph-X means 1000 PCBs. $20 x 2 x 500 = $20,000.
$20,000 probably means nothing to Pass, probably is just
some pocket money to Grey, but, hey, it is still some nice
income to average designers? Sure, you can charge more or less,
depends on what you think is right. This will also encourage more
people to share their designs with us? Actually this is exactly
what many designers have done already.
Pass may want to treat this thing as a student discount
(aren't DIYers just like students to Mr. Pass?), charge a symbolic $20
per PCB? As far as people are not selling assembled PCBs, or something
which has been adjusted, tested (it really amazes me that some keep
saying selling a kit is bad. Have they ever thought about even
after you solder everything together, adjustment and testing are
also a big thing to do? You think everyone on the block can do it?),
it will be OK?
Just a thought to share with everyone. It's the time to set up
the rule of game now. For those, me included, who got Chad's PCBs,
should call yourself lucky, and be thankful for Pass'es and Grey's
kindness. For any PCB group-buys from now on, everyone has to
pay a fee for it. The price may be higher, but it will give you
a peace of mind. You know you are not taking advanage of someone
else's hard work.
At the same time, I wish those who have Chad's PCBs stop attacking
DIYZONE's practice from now on. Be honest, we are more or less
in the same boat, too!
Ok, here is all what I can say. Super busy today. Enough mumbling.
Well, *** SPONGE BOB SQUAREPANTS GOES PREHISTORIC ***
was a mix of highs and not-so-highs. Initially, the episode was
a little boring, spending excessive amounts of time setting up
the characters in the prehistoric environment and all, with lots
of Ugh type language and caveman costumery, but it reached
a pinnacle when Sponge Bob, Patrick (the dumb starfish) and
Squidward (no explanation needed here) discover fire, which
under the sea in quite an achievement, in a scene straight out
of the beginning sequence of 2001, complete with Strauss's
Also Sprach Zarathustra. The intervening segments with Capt.
Patch and his parrot from the future were also quite good.
All in all though, I found it disappointing, considering the
promotional build up, and not as funny as your better regular
Sponge Bob episodes. My daughter, 4 hours after having oral
surgery and on Darvocet, found it somewhat more amusing.
Now back to our regularly scheduled argument.
was a mix of highs and not-so-highs. Initially, the episode was
a little boring, spending excessive amounts of time setting up
the characters in the prehistoric environment and all, with lots
of Ugh type language and caveman costumery, but it reached
a pinnacle when Sponge Bob, Patrick (the dumb starfish) and
Squidward (no explanation needed here) discover fire, which
under the sea in quite an achievement, in a scene straight out
of the beginning sequence of 2001, complete with Strauss's
Also Sprach Zarathustra. The intervening segments with Capt.
Patch and his parrot from the future were also quite good.
All in all though, I found it disappointing, considering the
promotional build up, and not as funny as your better regular
Sponge Bob episodes. My daughter, 4 hours after having oral
surgery and on Darvocet, found it somewhat more amusing.
Now back to our regularly scheduled argument.
Seeing as how I haven't watched TV in something like 25 years, I can't say that I'm a big Sponge Bob fan, but I'll see if I can prime the pump:
I was at work one evening last fall. A call came in from a student. She was upset because her web hookup wasn't working....and what was she paying her technology fee for, anyway?...and she expected perfect service...and this and that and the other thing. Whew! Made me glad I work mainframe, instead of network--she had dialed the wrong number. When she paused for breath sometime in the middle of her rant, I slid in one little factoid:
According to our network critters, our network stays near the limit. Something like 80-85% of the bandwidth of the university's backbone is illegal music transfers.
And to this, she said the most scary/fascinating thing I've heard in a month of Sundays: "Well, I can't afford to buy the music I want, so I take it."
Okay, let's everybody take a second and think about this.
The fact that you want something makes it okay to steal it?
She saw nothing wrong with this, even after I'd distilled it to the line above.
The Grateful Dead made a practice of letting concert-goers record their shows. Gave them their own little area where they could stand, so I'm told. But other bands choose not to do so. You can debate whether the bootleg recordings boosted the bands' reknown or not--that's a marketing issue--but you should at least respect the bands' wishes. If for no other reason than the fact that it's illegal to record someone's music without their permission.
Now, Nelson allows people to experiment with his circuitry, within limits. Other folks choose not to. Given that Nelson does allow tinkering, the polite thing to do is to touch base with him and outline your intentions...especially if your own moral compass doesn't seem to be able to point to what's right on its own. If in doubt, let him make the decision. It's his intellectual property.
I've been messing with a circuit. I saw an opportunity to insert a building block I'd seen here and there on the web. I wrote the developer of the circuit to ask permission to use it, assuring them that no resulting circuit would be posted on the web without their permission, etc. I received no reply. Now, it may be that they were simply too busy to write back. It may be that they assume that the circuit is now public domain and that anyone can use it, so don't bother asking. It may be that they don't care to have anyone messing with it. But not receiving a reply was sufficient for me. I won't use that circuit. It's that simple. I've got other things in mind that I can do, so it's not as though that one topology is going to make or break this particular circuit of mine, it just would have been an interesting variation.
But one thing you will not see me doing is saying,"Well, I want it so I'm gonna take it."
Grey
I was at work one evening last fall. A call came in from a student. She was upset because her web hookup wasn't working....and what was she paying her technology fee for, anyway?...and she expected perfect service...and this and that and the other thing. Whew! Made me glad I work mainframe, instead of network--she had dialed the wrong number. When she paused for breath sometime in the middle of her rant, I slid in one little factoid:
According to our network critters, our network stays near the limit. Something like 80-85% of the bandwidth of the university's backbone is illegal music transfers.
And to this, she said the most scary/fascinating thing I've heard in a month of Sundays: "Well, I can't afford to buy the music I want, so I take it."
Okay, let's everybody take a second and think about this.
The fact that you want something makes it okay to steal it?
She saw nothing wrong with this, even after I'd distilled it to the line above.
The Grateful Dead made a practice of letting concert-goers record their shows. Gave them their own little area where they could stand, so I'm told. But other bands choose not to do so. You can debate whether the bootleg recordings boosted the bands' reknown or not--that's a marketing issue--but you should at least respect the bands' wishes. If for no other reason than the fact that it's illegal to record someone's music without their permission.
Now, Nelson allows people to experiment with his circuitry, within limits. Other folks choose not to. Given that Nelson does allow tinkering, the polite thing to do is to touch base with him and outline your intentions...especially if your own moral compass doesn't seem to be able to point to what's right on its own. If in doubt, let him make the decision. It's his intellectual property.
I've been messing with a circuit. I saw an opportunity to insert a building block I'd seen here and there on the web. I wrote the developer of the circuit to ask permission to use it, assuring them that no resulting circuit would be posted on the web without their permission, etc. I received no reply. Now, it may be that they were simply too busy to write back. It may be that they assume that the circuit is now public domain and that anyone can use it, so don't bother asking. It may be that they don't care to have anyone messing with it. But not receiving a reply was sufficient for me. I won't use that circuit. It's that simple. I've got other things in mind that I can do, so it's not as though that one topology is going to make or break this particular circuit of mine, it just would have been an interesting variation.
But one thing you will not see me doing is saying,"Well, I want it so I'm gonna take it."
Grey
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