moe29 said:
moe29,
IMHO, there is no difference. To pirate a song or the entire CD is still a pirate. I have been trying to avoid pulling Kristijan into the thread but anyhow this has been raised. Mr Pass did not object to Kristijan, and he did not object to DIYZONE (at least up to this moment).
The HiFiZen Aleph X, in fact, has been referenced by DIYZONE as "a version that allows various options to be tried out, thus is better for the more experienced DIYers", whereas the DIYZONE provides an opportunity for the less expereinced.
For example, it would be extremely difficult for anyone to purchase, say 50 IRF240 and have a few matched pairs. In fact, 50 may not be enough to get the necessary matched pairs. Then there will be a pile of parts left over. In addition, someone like me who do not have access to fancy metal processing machinery (like Peter Daniels) has the benefit of the case fabricated with appropriate holes and opening, etc. I believe it helped beginners to understand the beauty of Mr Pass' elegant design solutions.
It seems a lot of the group purchase participants are students.
Another disclaimer: I did not participate in the DIYZONE Aleph X group pruchase and have no connection to the site.
Again, I have full respect of the IP rights, but somehow this discussion seems to have been biased.
Re: Re: Aleph-x
Magura,
I think Thomas was referring to Thunau's comments, not yours.
Having heated debate on [the IP issue] that, strangely enough, everyone agrees that must be upkeeped, shall we look at the brighter side of things?
DIYZONE has apart from the Aleph X group purchase, has a lot of other "kits" to offer, most of them original designs. Many of them are very simple that there has been quite a few beginners joined the brave new world of DIY audio with the help of this site.
Mr Nelson Pass' name was made known to a lot of people who would not otherwise have a clue this is the grand master of audio design. Free advertisement? Maybe.
Maybe I have said too much today.
Magura said:
Magura,
I think Thomas was referring to Thunau's comments, not yours.
Having heated debate on [the IP issue] that, strangely enough, everyone agrees that must be upkeeped, shall we look at the brighter side of things?
DIYZONE has apart from the Aleph X group purchase, has a lot of other "kits" to offer, most of them original designs. Many of them are very simple that there has been quite a few beginners joined the brave new world of DIY audio with the help of this site.
Mr Nelson Pass' name was made known to a lot of people who would not otherwise have a clue this is the grand master of audio design. Free advertisement? Maybe.
Maybe I have said too much today.
Magura said:
If he is making a profit, and im quite sure he is....its still illeagal.
Magura
I am sure he is.
And so are the the people of diyzone. I don't care how little they are making. You shouldn't be selling kits nor boards.
As far as the raising-sun countries ripping off the west it has been going on forever. The case of Italian motorcycles design being ripped off by honda suzuki and kawazaky it's one of the examples most dear to me.
I was just too happy to see the reverse happen, abeit on a smaller scale, when Peter got busy with the Gainclone idea.
What I think is that we are the very murky interface between DIY and commercial here. Most of the circuits on this site do work well and sound damn good too. You should also be aware that 99% of the mama and papa audio autfits out there are selling copies of copies of copies that, they claim, have been optimized to sound better.
The important thing is that the few originals out there (like Nelson) are keeping one step ahead of the competition.
I just received an email from Mr. Limin Wu and also from
another gentlemen in Taiwan.
Mr. Wu states that this is a one time group buy and that the
miniscule profit above parts cost is for the labor of matching
devices and such, and promises that this will cease in March.
I recall the amplifiers in the photos on his site had "Pass Aleph X"
in large lettering on the front panel. I see that this is not the
case as of this morning.
There does seem to be some misunderstanding in Taiwan (and
maybe elsewhere) about our policy, although it seems to me
that I have stated it often enough.
Ah well, this sort of thing has happened every couple of months
for the last 26 years. Not all companies companies are unethical,
as exemplified by Nakamichi, who paid 6 figures for a license to
use the Stasis design (Thanks, Mr. Yamazaki).
another gentlemen in Taiwan.
Mr. Wu states that this is a one time group buy and that the
miniscule profit above parts cost is for the labor of matching
devices and such, and promises that this will cease in March.
I recall the amplifiers in the photos on his site had "Pass Aleph X"
in large lettering on the front panel. I see that this is not the
case as of this morning.
There does seem to be some misunderstanding in Taiwan (and
maybe elsewhere) about our policy, although it seems to me
that I have stated it often enough.
Ah well, this sort of thing has happened every couple of months
for the last 26 years. Not all companies companies are unethical,
as exemplified by Nakamichi, who paid 6 figures for a license to
use the Stasis design (Thanks, Mr. Yamazaki).
I'm not sure what rights I might have to the Aleph-X. Perhaps a copyright on that particular version of the circuit, though that's easy enough to work around. In any event Nelson's patents are clearly the defining legal documents and his rights supercede mine (if any). And that's as it should be.
The whole intellectual property thing took a bit of a turn for me when my stories started getting ripped off without payment. I once saw a quote from a more established author in the field who said he'd always wished that he was good enough that someone would find it worth their while to steal from him. I make no claims as to how good an author I am--that's for others to decide--but the web has made it practical to steal stories even from the little guys...you know they're scraping bottom when they have nothing better to do than take my stories.
At the moment I'm sitting on three audio projects that I could post fairly readily. Given the atmosphere here at this time, I don't intend to do so. I don't profit from this stuff...indeed, it seems to serve only as a lightning rod for hassle. With that in mind, the scales--for me--seem to be tilting towards the negative side.
For the record, I have received the following:
--PaulB sent me some IRF MOSFETs, and later a pair of Aleph-X boards. I'm not sure who made the boards, but they are not of the HiFiZen group.
--Jam sent me three 2SK389s a while back. They got submerged under other stuff (my fault, not his) and surfaced this past fall during a big cleanup I undertook...which still isn't done.
--HiFiZen sent me a pair of Aleph-X boards. Someone else was involved in that board layout, but I can't remember who. I apologize for not remembering their ID.
--MikeW has sent me two different generations of Mini-A boards.
--And last, but certainly not least, Nelson sent me a very nice bottle of wine when the Aleph-X thread hit 250k.
I'd like to offer my thanks to the above people. They didn't have to do what they did. In no case am I aware of any skeletons in the closet that I could use to blackmail them into parting with those things. They did it out of generosity. I believe that is a full accounting of the 'profit' that I have made from this phase of my audio career. If I have been so crass as to leave anyone out, please accept my apologies...I'm writing this post at work and my mind is a bit scattered.
Don't get me wrong. I love audio as much as anyone, and more than most. It's just that the web tends to bring out the best and worst in people. The guys and gals who are pure gold at heart shine brightly indeed, but there are others who seem to have gone over to the dark side.
Grey
The whole intellectual property thing took a bit of a turn for me when my stories started getting ripped off without payment. I once saw a quote from a more established author in the field who said he'd always wished that he was good enough that someone would find it worth their while to steal from him. I make no claims as to how good an author I am--that's for others to decide--but the web has made it practical to steal stories even from the little guys...you know they're scraping bottom when they have nothing better to do than take my stories.
At the moment I'm sitting on three audio projects that I could post fairly readily. Given the atmosphere here at this time, I don't intend to do so. I don't profit from this stuff...indeed, it seems to serve only as a lightning rod for hassle. With that in mind, the scales--for me--seem to be tilting towards the negative side.
For the record, I have received the following:
--PaulB sent me some IRF MOSFETs, and later a pair of Aleph-X boards. I'm not sure who made the boards, but they are not of the HiFiZen group.
--Jam sent me three 2SK389s a while back. They got submerged under other stuff (my fault, not his) and surfaced this past fall during a big cleanup I undertook...which still isn't done.
--HiFiZen sent me a pair of Aleph-X boards. Someone else was involved in that board layout, but I can't remember who. I apologize for not remembering their ID.
--MikeW has sent me two different generations of Mini-A boards.
--And last, but certainly not least, Nelson sent me a very nice bottle of wine when the Aleph-X thread hit 250k.
I'd like to offer my thanks to the above people. They didn't have to do what they did. In no case am I aware of any skeletons in the closet that I could use to blackmail them into parting with those things. They did it out of generosity. I believe that is a full accounting of the 'profit' that I have made from this phase of my audio career. If I have been so crass as to leave anyone out, please accept my apologies...I'm writing this post at work and my mind is a bit scattered.
Don't get me wrong. I love audio as much as anyone, and more than most. It's just that the web tends to bring out the best and worst in people. The guys and gals who are pure gold at heart shine brightly indeed, but there are others who seem to have gone over to the dark side.
Grey
Of course that's the silver lining; being ripped off is the surest
sign of success. Once upon a time a not-going-to-be-named
company in one of the Carolina's copied the Zen resistor for
resistor. I was ****ed off enough at the time that I decided to
stop publishing projects. After my reaction went through a
half-life or so, I decided that it was an immature and pointless
response - as if I should stop doing what I like because some
sphincter-boy can't design his own stuff.
:Buddha Icon:
"people not Chinese also make illegal copies
This shows Mr Nelson Pass Design are wellcomed in
western countries also"
_____________________________________________
Arthur,
Actually Kristian is a frequent contributer here on this site and I seriously doubt that he makes any profit to speak of on the boards that he sells. Mr. Pass does not mind this sort of thing going on. Kristian is not selling a complete kit as the Chinese are offering. Many in the U.S. and Europe have used his boards in sucessful DIY projects. A kit of parts that arrives can hardly be classified as all DIY anyway. Alot of the work and parts selection is already done for you. IMHO there's really not much to learn from building a kit except how to solder.
Mark
This shows Mr Nelson Pass Design are wellcomed in
western countries also"
_____________________________________________
Arthur,
Actually Kristian is a frequent contributer here on this site and I seriously doubt that he makes any profit to speak of on the boards that he sells. Mr. Pass does not mind this sort of thing going on. Kristian is not selling a complete kit as the Chinese are offering. Many in the U.S. and Europe have used his boards in sucessful DIY projects. A kit of parts that arrives can hardly be classified as all DIY anyway. Alot of the work and parts selection is already done for you. IMHO there's really not much to learn from building a kit except how to solder.
Mark
I guess having your designs rip-off this way is a form of flattery. I am personally just a little tired of it myself. The Chinese, the Indian's have been making a real habit of it, in many different industries but there are not the only ones. I mean the majority of these folks are out side the law livening in countries where there no patent protection or rights. End the end we lose.
Kristian another case, he is not like HiFiZen who selling boards for the price of a burger or cost. No he wants plenty for them. However, I believe there a brighter side to this for Nelson. More people know about PassLab equipment and that it is great sounding and cool stuff. Maybe it generates some sales for him.
As for putting designs out it is not a big deal for those of us that do not make our living in audio. I really enjoy what goes on here at DIYAUDIO. When you out of work and your engineering field has just about die this is a good way to pass some time.
Kristian another case, he is not like HiFiZen who selling boards for the price of a burger or cost. No he wants plenty for them. However, I believe there a brighter side to this for Nelson. More people know about PassLab equipment and that it is great sounding and cool stuff. Maybe it generates some sales for him.
As for putting designs out it is not a big deal for those of us that do not make our living in audio. I really enjoy what goes on here at DIYAUDIO. When you out of work and your engineering field has just about die this is a good way to pass some time.
Rights
"I'm not sure what rights I might have to the Aleph-X."
Only the right to claim responsibility for starting what is now an international mess.........
I would be more inclined to try ditching blame rather than claiming any rights. Inadvertently or not, you gave pretty big start to those who would copy the design for profit. Let's hope that history doesn't repeat itself with active crossover cloning that you started interest in.
"At the moment I'm sitting on three audio projects that I could post fairly readily. Given the atmosphere here at this time, I don't intend to do so. I don't profit from this stuff...indeed, it seems to serve only as a lightning rod for hassle."
If you publish your own design work with the understanding that it is public domain at that point, and the realization that if it is any good that there is very real possibility that someone might make commercial use of it thats fine. It doesn't come with the temptation for abuse that the details of a world known designers work does, when thrust into the light of day. Any claims of being lightning rod arise from the "Hey everybody lets try to figure out what _________ is doing in his current production designs!" act and pretending to be innocent when the thing gains enough momentum to cause headaches. The problems for the designer you honored, with such scrutiny of their commercial designs, be damned, it's only the source of their livelihood after all.... But I guess that is your right. It sure doesn't make it right though, does it?
"I'm not sure what rights I might have to the Aleph-X."
Only the right to claim responsibility for starting what is now an international mess.........
I would be more inclined to try ditching blame rather than claiming any rights. Inadvertently or not, you gave pretty big start to those who would copy the design for profit. Let's hope that history doesn't repeat itself with active crossover cloning that you started interest in.
"At the moment I'm sitting on three audio projects that I could post fairly readily. Given the atmosphere here at this time, I don't intend to do so. I don't profit from this stuff...indeed, it seems to serve only as a lightning rod for hassle."
If you publish your own design work with the understanding that it is public domain at that point, and the realization that if it is any good that there is very real possibility that someone might make commercial use of it thats fine. It doesn't come with the temptation for abuse that the details of a world known designers work does, when thrust into the light of day. Any claims of being lightning rod arise from the "Hey everybody lets try to figure out what _________ is doing in his current production designs!" act and pretending to be innocent when the thing gains enough momentum to cause headaches. The problems for the designer you honored, with such scrutiny of their commercial designs, be damned, it's only the source of their livelihood after all.... But I guess that is your right. It sure doesn't make it right though, does it?
Ah, the dark side speaks...
Recently Fred seems to have appointed himself Nelson's protector, even to the extent of reinterpreting Nelson's stated position in order to suit his own wishes. In his zeal to take the moral high road, however, he loses sight of the fact that all designs were someone's brainchild somewhere back down the road. The only way to avoid borrowing someone else's work is to build nothing at all. It is only by treating prior art as a series of building blocks that progress is made.
A particularly fine example of the hypocrisy of Fred's position becomes evident when you remember how he kept hounding me to put up the crossover project--to the point of becoming rather strident about it. Furthermore, he has yet to explain how a simple Sallen-Key filter is in any way infringing on Nelson's commercial product...particularly after posting the same circuit himself.
For my part, I don't mind if someone builds a variation on the Aleph-X circuit. Hell, if I were going to get all *****ly about it, I'd start here at DIY with the higher powered versions--after all, they're not building the circuit strictly as I posted it, right? However, the need for a higher power version of the amplifier was obvious, so I left a trail of bread crumbs for those who wanted to scale the design up to any arbitrary power level they might wish. The fundamental issue is to do so with Nelson's permission and give credit where it is due. If Nelson doesn't ask for payment for DIY efforts, then that's his decision to make--not mine or Fred's or anyone else's. I wish I were in the same boat with my writing, but the mere copying there is sufficient to cause a problem and I'm a long way from making a living at the author game.
To the extent that I've borrowed from Nelson, I've done so with permission. I've also made it clear that I was doing so, to the extent of citing relevant patent numbers. I am indebted to the man for his contributions to my projects and would like to think that others would keep him in mind as they build them. I find myself getting instantly bored when I look at standard three stage solid state amps. Being able to do something different puts some zest in the game.
Poor Fred...perhaps someone will copy one of his circuits and make him feel better.
Or is it that no one copies Fred because there's little market for acrimony and strife?
Grey
EDIT: The filter is being overly protective again. The starred word above is p.r.i.c.k.l.y, as in a cactus.
Recently Fred seems to have appointed himself Nelson's protector, even to the extent of reinterpreting Nelson's stated position in order to suit his own wishes. In his zeal to take the moral high road, however, he loses sight of the fact that all designs were someone's brainchild somewhere back down the road. The only way to avoid borrowing someone else's work is to build nothing at all. It is only by treating prior art as a series of building blocks that progress is made.
A particularly fine example of the hypocrisy of Fred's position becomes evident when you remember how he kept hounding me to put up the crossover project--to the point of becoming rather strident about it. Furthermore, he has yet to explain how a simple Sallen-Key filter is in any way infringing on Nelson's commercial product...particularly after posting the same circuit himself.
For my part, I don't mind if someone builds a variation on the Aleph-X circuit. Hell, if I were going to get all *****ly about it, I'd start here at DIY with the higher powered versions--after all, they're not building the circuit strictly as I posted it, right? However, the need for a higher power version of the amplifier was obvious, so I left a trail of bread crumbs for those who wanted to scale the design up to any arbitrary power level they might wish. The fundamental issue is to do so with Nelson's permission and give credit where it is due. If Nelson doesn't ask for payment for DIY efforts, then that's his decision to make--not mine or Fred's or anyone else's. I wish I were in the same boat with my writing, but the mere copying there is sufficient to cause a problem and I'm a long way from making a living at the author game.
To the extent that I've borrowed from Nelson, I've done so with permission. I've also made it clear that I was doing so, to the extent of citing relevant patent numbers. I am indebted to the man for his contributions to my projects and would like to think that others would keep him in mind as they build them. I find myself getting instantly bored when I look at standard three stage solid state amps. Being able to do something different puts some zest in the game.
Poor Fred...perhaps someone will copy one of his circuits and make him feel better.
Or is it that no one copies Fred because there's little market for acrimony and strife?
Grey
EDIT: The filter is being overly protective again. The starred word above is p.r.i.c.k.l.y, as in a cactus.
Nelson Pass said:
Nelson Pass said "sphincter-boy"!
I thought we (the guys at my office) were the only ones to use that one! I couldn't stop laughing when I read it! We also like to use "no-talent *ss-clown"
I never could figure out why those guys ripped Nelson off. Their flagship product line has a good reputation and I'd be very surprised if they sold many of the knock-off amps. The high-end industry isn't that big. Did they think Nelson wouldn't find out?
Alas, I'm glad he came back. I was getting tired of building chip amps
Grey, I urge you to still publish the stories you have. I personally like your writing style a lot and always enjoy your stories and I'm quite sure I'm not the only one. The members to whom your projects might be especially helpful are just silently waiting whereas your "resistance forces" are shouting loudly
***
On the other point... I have been reading this thread and I urge everyone not to generalize and point to this or that nation making some claims. There are people living in these countries and they are all as different as me and you. As I live in a country with a total population of 1,5 million in total I have a bit different perspective. For me it looks like big giants from fairytales arguing who is quickest and smartest. There is no point to make racist comments and so forth. It does noone any good just makes more people angry and mean.
If there was such then a smiley with PEACE sign goes here
Regards,
Ergo
***
On the other point... I have been reading this thread and I urge everyone not to generalize and point to this or that nation making some claims. There are people living in these countries and they are all as different as me and you. As I live in a country with a total population of 1,5 million in total I have a bit different perspective. For me it looks like big giants from fairytales arguing who is quickest and smartest. There is no point to make racist comments and so forth. It does noone any good just makes more people angry and mean.
If there was such then a smiley with PEACE sign goes here
Regards,
Ergo
Mark A. Gulbrandsen said:
Mark,
In my previous post I said I thought about bringing Kristijan into the discussion, but eventually his name did come up.
The DIYZONE has been a group purchase, just like HiFiZen's effort in providing us in very professionally made boards. Mr Wu has been trying to do the same providing others with perfectly matched MOSFET so that "beginners" can also enjoy the good sound in Mr Pass' and Grey Rollins' design.
To the more experienced DIYer, yes a kit has nothing more than soldering (how about learning the black art of getting the nasty hum out of the amp), but there is always a first time for everyone.
I still remember the first ever electronics project I did years ago when I was 10 was an AM transmitter kit, brought about by one of our seniors at school. He made a few bucks in the process, but the 50+ of us did enjoy the result, and had certainly been the catalyst of my interest in electronics. Without his help, I would not know where to start to get parts. Back then DARPA has not embarked on its ARPANET project therefore coming to this forum for help is undreamed of.
As I have emphasis many times, I have total dislike of plagerism, piracy or activity of the like, but Grey has pointed out in his post unless you create nothing, there always would be a basis from where one has to start.
The Aleph X or Mr Pass' design is a good example; Linux is another: everyone shares the design, improves it, the world benefits.
Unfortunately, I am still typing along under Mr Gates' fine product.
PS: Mark, with that Kristijan is charging, comparing to Chad Simpson's group pruchase price, I think you may be making too bold a statement on "profit".
I think that Zen, Aleph and X are originally Nelson Pass's idea. It doesn't matter how these threes are combined and used by DIYers. Still those are based on his basic idea. DIYers are just using his idea to certain variations. No? If yes, we need to keep the basic moral in mind when we do something using his idea.
Am I talking about a different culture?
Am I talking about a different culture?
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