The "it increases your fame" argument carries no weight with me. Authors are hearing that a lot from people who claim that they're trying to "help" them by posting pirated copies of their stories on the web.
Having had at least two of my stories ripped, I can tell you that it's no fun. I can't eat fame, nor can I pay bills with it. I got over the excitement of seeing my name under a story title after about the fourth or fifth story. Since then, I get my jollies from writing the story--strangely enough, it's an enjoyable process. However, once the story's done, my bills are still there, so I sell the rights. Someone who takes it without permission is doing me no favors.
That's why they make lawyers.
Grey
P.S.: I think I'll drop in on the Mercedes dealership and take a car...after all, it'll increase their fame, right?
Having had at least two of my stories ripped, I can tell you that it's no fun. I can't eat fame, nor can I pay bills with it. I got over the excitement of seeing my name under a story title after about the fourth or fifth story. Since then, I get my jollies from writing the story--strangely enough, it's an enjoyable process. However, once the story's done, my bills are still there, so I sell the rights. Someone who takes it without permission is doing me no favors.
That's why they make lawyers.
Grey
P.S.: I think I'll drop in on the Mercedes dealership and take a car...after all, it'll increase their fame, right?
jewilson said:
I just bet that Nelson would like to have an order for 500 amps. You know there was a company called Heath Kit and Dyanco, so tell me what is the difference in what they are about. Does it matter how much they are making. Please don't tell me there are doing all this out of the kindness of their DIYZONE hearts.
Actually none! If DIYZONE did not do it, Pass would not be able to sell extra 500 amps to them either. Even Chad might not get extra 1000 pcb orders. Yet this is not the point. The sale number does not matter, what matters most is what the right diy model is all about. If Pass feels that, Ok, I have published the design, you are welcome to do whatever you want to make the machine yourself as far as you are not selling the machine for profit. This is good; however, if Pass says, yeah, you can make the amp but you will have to do every single part by yourself. If you want someone else to help you, you will have to get my permissionf first. Well, then I will say, with this attitude, I will admire Pass'es design yet I will never bother to make one myself.
To answer your another question, yes, this Aleph-X is indeed just a service. Com'n, do a price calculation on the part list. Do you want to see the detailed part list? I can email you one! See how you can get them all with $450? To make the long story short. DIYZONE actually did Aleph-P first (uh-oh, do not want to start another flame war). It was not a complete kit though. After that one was done, people started to bug DIYZONE for Aleph-X. The whole thing had taken a long time to brew, you know? Too bad that I am not Mr. Wu otherwise I will just focus on selling CDPRO2!
Nah nah, Grey. What I was saying is that at the end,
Pass had become more famous in Taiwan, but Mr.Wu was
the one to blame. Who would want to do such a stupid thing
for such thin profit?
And for God's sake, Taiwan actually has a very tight
regulation on IP usage now. Do not mix it together with
other notorious countries!
Yes, you have the right but if you really think you
had the right to make the money, said it clear and loud from Day One!
I am sure everybody would be happy to pay you for your excellent work!
I understand your feeling. I can see that you feel hurt,
feel people are taking advantage of you. I make a living
based patents, too, you know? I can understand your
position perfectly. But, hey, have you ever thought
about other peoples feeling? Probably it was a misunderstanding
but at first people thought it was OK to use your design
as far as they did not do it to make money, but now you are
saying that things like this and that will have to
get your permission first? Be honest to you, after hearing
you saying this, my first reaction is to trash my 10
Aleph-X boards immediately. They may only mean potential troubles
to me, right?
The biggest concern I have now is actually whether this DIYZONE
thing will prevent people from sharing their designs and ideas here?
Pass had become more famous in Taiwan, but Mr.Wu was
the one to blame. Who would want to do such a stupid thing
for such thin profit?
And for God's sake, Taiwan actually has a very tight
regulation on IP usage now. Do not mix it together with
other notorious countries!
Yes, you have the right but if you really think you
had the right to make the money, said it clear and loud from Day One!
I am sure everybody would be happy to pay you for your excellent work!
I understand your feeling. I can see that you feel hurt,
feel people are taking advantage of you. I make a living
based patents, too, you know? I can understand your
position perfectly. But, hey, have you ever thought
about other peoples feeling? Probably it was a misunderstanding
but at first people thought it was OK to use your design
as far as they did not do it to make money, but now you are
saying that things like this and that will have to
get your permission first? Be honest to you, after hearing
you saying this, my first reaction is to trash my 10
Aleph-X boards immediately. They may only mean potential troubles
to me, right?
The biggest concern I have now is actually whether this DIYZONE
thing will prevent people from sharing their designs and ideas here?
funny enough
Dear FinneyBear,
Thanks for reminding me of my poor English on DIY ZONE just like LIMIN WU keeps blasting us his dad and brother-in law are lawyers. I just moved to Costa Mesa, CA and got to improve my English as soon as possibe.
Could you kindly tell me what's the difference between 100% clone of Threshold Amp and 100% clone of ProAc Response 2.5 speaker? I am so stupid!
Someone stole your wallet and told you he should advise you earlier? It's quite compatible with your logic and thinkgin, isn't it?
According to your words on DIY Zone regarding to the clone business of LIMIN WU, I don't consider you show any respect to ProAc, Pass and anyone contributing.
Please forgive my poor English every nice guy. Even a senior high graduate has right to express his opinions, right? Aleph-X can be bought, but I cannot.
Dear FinneyBear,
Thanks for reminding me of my poor English on DIY ZONE just like LIMIN WU keeps blasting us his dad and brother-in law are lawyers. I just moved to Costa Mesa, CA and got to improve my English as soon as possibe.
Could you kindly tell me what's the difference between 100% clone of Threshold Amp and 100% clone of ProAc Response 2.5 speaker? I am so stupid!
Someone stole your wallet and told you he should advise you earlier? It's quite compatible with your logic and thinkgin, isn't it?
According to your words on DIY Zone regarding to the clone business of LIMIN WU, I don't consider you show any respect to ProAc, Pass and anyone contributing.
Please forgive my poor English every nice guy. Even a senior high graduate has right to express his opinions, right? Aleph-X can be bought, but I cannot.
I don't doubt that Mr. Pass thinks twice before many of his publications and chooses to provide both printed designs as well as designs on the internet at his own desire. He has already given well written documents to help other people on amp design, regardless of the particular design it is. The Zen series of articles seem to be more of an education than simply a 'how to build' document series in my mind. I also believe his freely available service manuals are more than just about any other company would provide.
It seems odd to me that you will
a) tell Mr. Pass to 'think twice' before publishing his next design (I personally think he is capable of making these decisions on his own and has done more for us than ever deserved)
b) support an organization which Mr. Pass himself has said is under review by his distributor in Taiwan, regardless of the outcome
c) state that this organization asked for permission which Mr. Pass says did not happen and
d) post a plug for another product, which if successful, would provide additional profit for the group.
I may be interested in a CD-PRO2 at some point in my DIY adventure, but chose not to even look at the link provided, for the simple fact that there is an overshadowing of possible misdeeds.
If you chose to defend the practices of DIYZONE, I would suggest not plugging their current possibly profitable and possibly questionable next product. Even if it is completely legitimate, it takes from your credibility, given the obviously questionable nature of the transactions which have taken place with regard to the Aleph-X.
Sandy.
It seems odd to me that you will
a) tell Mr. Pass to 'think twice' before publishing his next design (I personally think he is capable of making these decisions on his own and has done more for us than ever deserved)
b) support an organization which Mr. Pass himself has said is under review by his distributor in Taiwan, regardless of the outcome
c) state that this organization asked for permission which Mr. Pass says did not happen and
d) post a plug for another product, which if successful, would provide additional profit for the group.
I may be interested in a CD-PRO2 at some point in my DIY adventure, but chose not to even look at the link provided, for the simple fact that there is an overshadowing of possible misdeeds.
If you chose to defend the practices of DIYZONE, I would suggest not plugging their current possibly profitable and possibly questionable next product. Even if it is completely legitimate, it takes from your credibility, given the obviously questionable nature of the transactions which have taken place with regard to the Aleph-X.
Sandy.
A quick side point.
Finneybear...
For those who dont see a problem in a kit for a patented product, let's take it a little further then. The kit supplied by DIYZONE is a complete set of matched parts, only a few tools are not included.
If thats ok, then how about a readily soldered amp, where all thats left is to mount the powercord....thats a kit too, and according to your philosophy its ok as well...isnt it??
Its just made for the even less experienced DIY'er.......
Magura
Finneybear...
For those who dont see a problem in a kit for a patented product, let's take it a little further then. The kit supplied by DIYZONE is a complete set of matched parts, only a few tools are not included.
If thats ok, then how about a readily soldered amp, where all thats left is to mount the powercord....thats a kit too, and according to your philosophy its ok as well...isnt it??
Its just made for the even less experienced DIY'er.......
Magura
finneybear,
To clear up a potential misunderstanding, when I speak of being an author, I mean it in the literal sense. I am a published science fiction author. Have been for fifteen years or so. It has nothing to do with electronics (though I do have a Victor & Martin story coming up that uses electronics as a plot device).
For that matter, I'm also a non-fiction author. I once wrote a short piece on how to make mead. Got paid for that one, too...and got semi-ripped on that one when someone paraphrased my article and sold it to another magazine a couple of months later. Couldn't even be bothered to rearrange the paragraphs.
I don't speak of the posts I write here as stories. They're just posts on a web site. That's all.
Your muddy perception of what I wrote reflects poorly on one of us. Either I did not write clearly, or you did not read for comprehension.
Grey
To clear up a potential misunderstanding, when I speak of being an author, I mean it in the literal sense. I am a published science fiction author. Have been for fifteen years or so. It has nothing to do with electronics (though I do have a Victor & Martin story coming up that uses electronics as a plot device).
For that matter, I'm also a non-fiction author. I once wrote a short piece on how to make mead. Got paid for that one, too...and got semi-ripped on that one when someone paraphrased my article and sold it to another magazine a couple of months later. Couldn't even be bothered to rearrange the paragraphs.
I don't speak of the posts I write here as stories. They're just posts on a web site. That's all.
Your muddy perception of what I wrote reflects poorly on one of us. Either I did not write clearly, or you did not read for comprehension.
Grey
Magura said:
Hi, Magura, as I have said it again and again. It is really not a kit per say. Yes, it may look like a kit to you, but in reality, it was a group of people who asked DIYZONE to prepare things together for them. It is not like putting a kit on the catalog and selling it as a kit. What's the difference between Chad's board and DIYZONE's board plus parts? How about I say for experienced DIYers, Char's pcb is also a kit? And in reality, you need more than just solder iorn to build the DIYZONE *kit*. You still have to find the right wires, and many other little things. Quite different from someone claimed above, you do need some DIY knowledge to build it.
Still, let me stress the issue again: Here we have a case. A talented inventor was sharing his creation with us here. What's the limit here? What can we DIYers do and what can't we do? It is clear to me that DIYZONE was thinking doing a part preparation work was an OK job to do. If you think it is not then where the limit is? Other than keep spitting out complaints, morality preaching, has everyone really thought about something more constructive? To me this a very import issue to the DIY world. I even do not feel comfortable to build Chad's PCBs now, be honest to you. It really amazes me that so many would condemn DIYZONE's so-called misdeed yet at the same happily build Chad's board at home! Clear enough?
BTW, Chad, please do not feel insulted. I absolutely love your work and can not appreciate what you have done for us more. I just want to use your case as an example. Please accept my apology first. I still believe what you have done is perfectly OK.
The limit should be obvious to most.
You say its a groupbuy...not a kit.
A groupbuy is done by the members of the respective forum on NON (as in none whatsoever) profit basis.
The case with the taiwanese "groupbuy" is that they have made a custom order from a kit manufacturer.
Now dont tell me this was all done nonprofit. If you believe a company does such thing nonprofit, im sorry to say so, but youre naive then....and i dont believe anybody is that naive.
Magura
You say its a groupbuy...not a kit.
A groupbuy is done by the members of the respective forum on NON (as in none whatsoever) profit basis.
The case with the taiwanese "groupbuy" is that they have made a custom order from a kit manufacturer.
Now dont tell me this was all done nonprofit. If you believe a company does such thing nonprofit, im sorry to say so, but youre naive then....and i dont believe anybody is that naive.
Magura
GRollins said:
Hi Grey
I am sorry if I had misunderstood you something. I thought that you felt hurt and abused by DIYZONE? I was just trying to say that both parties could be innocent in this case. It is also a good chance for us to draw a clear line now instead of pointing finger to each other.
I did not realize that you were a writer! Indeed, you are yet another gifted person here! Oh, and with this chance, I have to say a big Thank you for what you have done for us. Without you, there will never be an Aleph-X!
Magura said:
Again, you missed the point. What's your definition for profit? The company charged money for matching FETs. Do you think they have the right to make this profit or not? The price tag $450 is there. You can calculate how much *profit* DIYZONE makes. Actually I also paid a friend here who did the matching for me. I paid him even more than what DIYZONE would make from the *kit*. Should I call him a rip-off? Or I should call myself stupid?
I’m in no position to judge whether DIYZONE is evil or not. Since I occasionally browsed their website, I must give some credit to their contribution to DIY world. Just pick this 24-step VR kit for example:
http://www.diyzone.net/article.php?sid=369
They are offering the complete kits, with solid aluminum knob, for about USD$21 dollars. If we bought those 92 DALE RN60D resistors from Mouser, it would cost us $19 already. Not to mention the 4-layer switch and the knob. I can only wish that there are people offering this kind of kits here in the US.
After reading this thread, I browsed DIYZONE website to look at their Aleph-X stuff. I think it all started from one diyer posted his Aleph-X amplifier built using Chad’s PCB in the DIYZONE forum.
http://www.diyzone.net/article.php?sid=408
It attracted so much interest that somehow DIYZONE (Mr. Wu) asked in the forum if diyers wanted a group buy. There were 500 people signed up and Mr. Wu started the project.
http://www.diyzone.net/article.php?sid=424
The kit includes:
2 main PCBs and 8 driver PCBs
24 matched IRF240s and 4 matched IRF9610s
2 660VA toroidals and 8 RIFA PEH169 22000uF caps
DALE RN60D resistors and Fukushima wire-wound power resistors
Case with heat sinks and all hardware
All these for about USD$450. Is DIYZONE making any profit? Pretty hard, I think. Is DIYZONE doing anything wrong? I believe that’s between Mr. Pass and Mr. Wu. I only know that while everyone here thanked Chad for arranging the PCB group buy (including me), people are criticizing DIYZONE. Why? Do we have to collect every single part by ourselves to be a real diyer?
http://www.diyzone.net/article.php?sid=369
They are offering the complete kits, with solid aluminum knob, for about USD$21 dollars. If we bought those 92 DALE RN60D resistors from Mouser, it would cost us $19 already. Not to mention the 4-layer switch and the knob. I can only wish that there are people offering this kind of kits here in the US.
After reading this thread, I browsed DIYZONE website to look at their Aleph-X stuff. I think it all started from one diyer posted his Aleph-X amplifier built using Chad’s PCB in the DIYZONE forum.
http://www.diyzone.net/article.php?sid=408
It attracted so much interest that somehow DIYZONE (Mr. Wu) asked in the forum if diyers wanted a group buy. There were 500 people signed up and Mr. Wu started the project.
http://www.diyzone.net/article.php?sid=424
The kit includes:
2 main PCBs and 8 driver PCBs
24 matched IRF240s and 4 matched IRF9610s
2 660VA toroidals and 8 RIFA PEH169 22000uF caps
DALE RN60D resistors and Fukushima wire-wound power resistors
Case with heat sinks and all hardware
All these for about USD$450. Is DIYZONE making any profit? Pretty hard, I think. Is DIYZONE doing anything wrong? I believe that’s between Mr. Pass and Mr. Wu. I only know that while everyone here thanked Chad for arranging the PCB group buy (including me), people are criticizing DIYZONE. Why? Do we have to collect every single part by ourselves to be a real diyer?
dggs said:
This whole thing is a matter of walking a very thin line. Making PCB's is already on the wrong side of the law, but pass have accepted it, so thats ok in connection with Pass products so far.
Making a kit is sure as **** on the wrong side, since it is harming the DIY world real bad (as pointed out by NP as well).
Considering this, it is no longer between NP and DIYZONE, cause it keeps others like NP from posting their schematics and from being open in general.
What we are doing is tolerated to some extend (keep in mind its illeagal what we do without NP's accept) because it is DIY on hobby basis.
To make 500 kits is in no way any longer what i call hobby based. Its simply industrial.
So no, i didnt miss the point, i just cant see how hard it can be to distinguish between 500kits made by a company, and a few amps build in the garage by hobbyists.
Magura
Trying to judge whether DIYZONE is making a profit by converting their Aleph-X kit price into US dollars and comparing that figure to what it would cost to buy those items here in the US from Digikey, Mouser, et. al. shows a serious lack of economic understanding.
The point isn't how the DIYZONE price compares to retail prices here. It's a simple question of how much DIYZONE paid for their parts vs. what they are bringing in by selling the kits. They will have bought in quantity, perhaps even negotiating a discount for volume. It's possible that they paid the equivalent of the US minimum wage to the folks matching the parts...but I wouldn't bet the farm on it. Since it's unlikely that anyone will have access to those numbers, all speculation is futile.
Saying, for instance, that,"Well, I know we couldn't do it in Kansas for that amount of money," completely sidesteps the issue of whether they are making a profit. They aren't in Kansas. They aren't subject to US minimum wage laws. They aren't subject to the same tax structure. They paid whatever they paid for the parts, and for labor, not what it would have cost them here. I doubt seriously that they paid even what we would regard as a wholesale price here in the US.
Grey
The point isn't how the DIYZONE price compares to retail prices here. It's a simple question of how much DIYZONE paid for their parts vs. what they are bringing in by selling the kits. They will have bought in quantity, perhaps even negotiating a discount for volume. It's possible that they paid the equivalent of the US minimum wage to the folks matching the parts...but I wouldn't bet the farm on it. Since it's unlikely that anyone will have access to those numbers, all speculation is futile.
Saying, for instance, that,"Well, I know we couldn't do it in Kansas for that amount of money," completely sidesteps the issue of whether they are making a profit. They aren't in Kansas. They aren't subject to US minimum wage laws. They aren't subject to the same tax structure. They paid whatever they paid for the parts, and for labor, not what it would have cost them here. I doubt seriously that they paid even what we would regard as a wholesale price here in the US.
Grey
I would be keeping a lower profile.
"They aren't subject to US minimum wage laws. They aren't subject to the same tax structure. They paid whatever they paid for the parts, and for labor, not what it would have cost them here. I doubt seriously that they paid even what we would regard as a wholesale price here in the US."
Perhaps most importantly......... they don't have any R and D cost. At least they gave you credit and I am sure they are most greytful!
F.r.e.d.l.y
"They aren't subject to US minimum wage laws. They aren't subject to the same tax structure. They paid whatever they paid for the parts, and for labor, not what it would have cost them here. I doubt seriously that they paid even what we would regard as a wholesale price here in the US."
Perhaps most importantly......... they don't have any R and D cost. At least they gave you credit and I am sure they are most greytful!
F.r.e.d.l.y
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