No, that would be a Fallacy Fallacy (claiming the existence of a fallacy for spurious reasons where one does not exist), closely followed by an Argument from Ignorance. I was hoping for a trifecta, but I'll have to be content with a quinella.
It is with considerable relief you chose the field you did. If it had been medicine, there would likely be many dead people as a result of "I believe in what I hear and experience". Who needs RCTs anyway; they are just costly, unproductive exercises acting as impediments to "real medicine" such as acupressure. It is a shame, however, that everything in Cochrane shows all of the "acu"s to be mild short-term placebos, but you know better, John.
In order:
I invoke the proposition that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. The claims for the efficacy of Bybee devices is extraordinary so evidence to back the claims should be required.
No-one has yet shown decent statistical evidence that the devices have ANY effect. In this, I invoke a further proposition - that "proof" is not the plural of "anecdote".
Sans evidence of an effect, there is no point hypothesising a cause.
Move on - nothing to see here.
I invoke the proposition that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. The claims for the efficacy of Bybee devices is extraordinary so evidence to back the claims should be required.
No-one has yet shown decent statistical evidence that the devices have ANY effect. In this, I invoke a further proposition - that "proof" is not the plural of "anecdote".
Sans evidence of an effect, there is no point hypothesising a cause.
Move on - nothing to see here.
Hi SE,
did you, apart from measuring the 'thing' also had a few listening tests (just in case)?
SE? Me or someone else?
se
Hi Steve,
oeps sorry i meant SY!
So again question to SY,
did you appart from measuring the 'thing' also did some listening tests, just in case
?I understand that most people here believe in if you can't measure it, you can't hear it, but still, listening IS also important.
That doesn't say that i do not find the BB offensive.
I am glad it gets exposed on threads like this, unfortunatelly, 99% of buyers would never read through these common sense comments and follow their 'feeling'..
In the Netherlands it gets even worse, we have an audio forum where they firmly believe that any change in the audioset should first be checked via pendelum swinging... also they use troll snot on signal wire (also inside equipment), (believe it or not) and it gets even worse, obviousilly there is a 'guru' there, and you guessed it, they are now selling products which consist of cork and some carbon fibres sprayed on it, and you wont believe the things people hear when they use it... oh my.
The claim made is ultra vague, it has to do with the earth magnetic field and position of the sun, and the product gets marketed as being Feng Shui.
Well just to show were we are heading, it is only getting worse it seems..
I am ashamed of being an audionut when such big portion of fellow enthiousiasts are 'guru' followers whom tell you to buy their beads and mirrors, exactly like JB and consorts do i guess?
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Since part of the scam is being vague about "device" application (so that if a negative result happens, it's because you didn't put it in the right place), that seems somewhat pointless. I only reported on measurements directed toward the unfounded claims. Anything else is not worthy of writing about.
Thanks SY,
i understand what you say and i concur.
I do find listening tests important, it is my personal experience that for me, there are differences between cables e.g. same as capacitors.
BUT, sure you are right, this is a fraudulent claim and THAT is the issue!
Even IF the Bybee Quantum Purifier (om the name..) would have an improvement on my system, i would NEVER buy it, as i despise false claims and guru-ism.
These people (so called gurus) are quite common in society, it is part of human nature to be willing to be fooled, i know we cant speak about religion so i won't, i respect anyones believes but i don't respect lyers.
My grandfather taught me about these people,
He knew a person whom was a fraud, it was his 'work' being one..
My grandfather asked him:
how can you sell this product which does not do for what you advertise it for? won't you get problems with that?
The man replied:
IT TAKES A LONG TIME TO FOOL ALL FOOLS !
Interestingly the welcome collection and Radio3 are doing this Why Music? | Wellcome Collection - Wellcome Trust
Whilst nothing to appeal to the expert the wellcome collection always put on a good exhibition, generally with added gore! Will be interesting to see their conclusions.
Whilst nothing to appeal to the expert the wellcome collection always put on a good exhibition, generally with added gore! Will be interesting to see their conclusions.
Ask yourself :
how does/did the manufacturer establish that the devices indeed function/work as intended by theory ?
Answers :
A- Faith ?
B- Testing by measuring ?
C- Audit them, with the hearing-aid turned on?
D- Having them audited by loyal customers, for whom the person behind them does not matter, as a guy in his '80s would not survive the airlift to Gitmo.
E- Let the market be the judge ?
Looking at some of the stuff coming out, basically get a bit of endorsement preferably from an Audiophile reviewer or Guru designer have some BS science sounding marketing and sell it, nothing else matters because some Audiophiles will go to great lengths to support and promote a load of crap, it doesn't even have to work or follow the laws of physics...
Anyone who argues or asks for data is a Objective, totally deaf fool with a crap system and doesn't understand how audio works or the magic involved... just been reading how a super power chord hand built by a Japanese audiophile guru made ripped CDs sound better.....
Anyone who argues or asks for data is a Objective, totally deaf fool with a crap system and doesn't understand how audio works or the magic involved... just been reading how a super power chord hand built by a Japanese audiophile guru made ripped CDs sound better.....
just testing my new signature.
Edit: Ok, seems to work.
A further comment concerning physical laws and the factualizing of science into dogma. Facts are created out of emotionally based human frailty, that sits unrealized in the human mind.
The dangers of facts, the dangers of 'laws' of physics and how they ruin human exploration and kill the future into a dead downward inward terminated spiral. How anyone who screams about the laws of physics being violated by a new thing or new proposal... MUST be curb stomped by science... or their ranting about violation... is meat - in the act of murdering humanity's future.
Science has nothing to do with laws or factualizing, it is about bridging what you individually understand...into a new view about a new future. Change is life, "laws of physics" lead only to a static unchanging death; a happy monkey mentally masturbating today - the same way they did yesterday. Nothing more.
Making fun of what you don't know and don't understand is like some sort of group meeting about looking to produce strange fruit and hang it from the poplar trees... some sort of ill educated backward looking barely covered violence toward the unknown, a KKK of a misanthropic sick and shadowed caricature mirror of real science....one that wants to go on a witch hunt.
I maintain that Truth is a pathless land, and you cannot approach it by any path whatsoever, by any religion, by any sect. That is my point of view, and I adhere to that absolutely and unconditionally. Truth, being limitless, unconditioned, unapproachable by any path whatsoever, cannot be organized; nor should any organization be formed to lead or to coerce people along any particular path. If you first understand that, then you will see how impossible it is to organize a belief. A belief is purely an individual matter, and you cannot and must not organize it. If you do, it becomes dead, crystallized; it becomes a creed, a sect, a religion, to be imposed on others. This is what everyone throughout the world is attempting to do. Truth is narrowed down and made a plaything for those who are weak, for those who are only momentarily discontented. Truth cannot be brought down, rather the individual must make the effort to ascend to it. You cannot bring the mountain-top to the valley. If you would attain to the mountain-top you must pass through the valley, climb the steeps, unafraid of the dangerous precipices.
--Jiddu Krishnamurti
Edit: Ok, seems to work.
A further comment concerning physical laws and the factualizing of science into dogma. Facts are created out of emotionally based human frailty, that sits unrealized in the human mind.
The dangers of facts, the dangers of 'laws' of physics and how they ruin human exploration and kill the future into a dead downward inward terminated spiral. How anyone who screams about the laws of physics being violated by a new thing or new proposal... MUST be curb stomped by science... or their ranting about violation... is meat - in the act of murdering humanity's future.
Science has nothing to do with laws or factualizing, it is about bridging what you individually understand...into a new view about a new future. Change is life, "laws of physics" lead only to a static unchanging death; a happy monkey mentally masturbating today - the same way they did yesterday. Nothing more.
Making fun of what you don't know and don't understand is like some sort of group meeting about looking to produce strange fruit and hang it from the poplar trees... some sort of ill educated backward looking barely covered violence toward the unknown, a KKK of a misanthropic sick and shadowed caricature mirror of real science....one that wants to go on a witch hunt.
I maintain that Truth is a pathless land, and you cannot approach it by any path whatsoever, by any religion, by any sect. That is my point of view, and I adhere to that absolutely and unconditionally. Truth, being limitless, unconditioned, unapproachable by any path whatsoever, cannot be organized; nor should any organization be formed to lead or to coerce people along any particular path. If you first understand that, then you will see how impossible it is to organize a belief. A belief is purely an individual matter, and you cannot and must not organize it. If you do, it becomes dead, crystallized; it becomes a creed, a sect, a religion, to be imposed on others. This is what everyone throughout the world is attempting to do. Truth is narrowed down and made a plaything for those who are weak, for those who are only momentarily discontented. Truth cannot be brought down, rather the individual must make the effort to ascend to it. You cannot bring the mountain-top to the valley. If you would attain to the mountain-top you must pass through the valley, climb the steeps, unafraid of the dangerous precipices.
--Jiddu Krishnamurti
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Only one ?
Dubious, you could still be a semi-astute realist.
Amusement trivia : I noticed that when I mix words from different languages in a post, I lose sight of grammar. Vin de la maison becomes vin du maison, something so basic, I'd never do when speaking/writing in French only.
Feels somewhat as a phantom phenomenom popping it's head.
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