Hello everyone. I have a few questions about speaker wire's and a few different types of them? I have no idea were or
what forum to put this topic in? So lets start. I know there is a debate about wire being wire and if it works then its good. I understand that point of view but, why are there so many types of copper formula's and names for them? Here are some examples?
1. Mogami's (Neglex ) oxgen free copper cable?
2. Audioquest X2 bulk speaker wire. ( Has long grain copper conductors ) and is not ( ofc ) ?
3. Furez FZ102AS Bulk in wall wire. It has multiple gauge stranding within rope laying design of high strand count ( ofc )?
4. supra classic 1.6 bulk cables. Tinned plated multi-strained (ofc )of purity degree 5 N?
5.DH Labs bulk wire. OFH-14 Silver coated continuous crystal copper?
6. Gotham
Cables. Strained bulk cables. SPK ( 50040) Stranded bare copper wires? Or you can get it in (50240) non pvc version that is (ofc)?
I know people who use cryo treated wires and swear by them? They also use ( CCA wire and if its a 14 gauge copper wire they go down to a 12 gauge CCA wire to match the coppers out put ). Also coat hangers and cat 5 e cables and burial wire. That wires copper is very dark looking. Well I just wanted your thoughts on this subject? What do you all think? Jeff
what forum to put this topic in? So lets start. I know there is a debate about wire being wire and if it works then its good. I understand that point of view but, why are there so many types of copper formula's and names for them? Here are some examples?
1. Mogami's (Neglex ) oxgen free copper cable?
2. Audioquest X2 bulk speaker wire. ( Has long grain copper conductors ) and is not ( ofc ) ?
3. Furez FZ102AS Bulk in wall wire. It has multiple gauge stranding within rope laying design of high strand count ( ofc )?
4. supra classic 1.6 bulk cables. Tinned plated multi-strained (ofc )of purity degree 5 N?
5.DH Labs bulk wire. OFH-14 Silver coated continuous crystal copper?
6. Gotham
Cables. Strained bulk cables. SPK ( 50040) Stranded bare copper wires? Or you can get it in (50240) non pvc version that is (ofc)?
I know people who use cryo treated wires and swear by them? They also use ( CCA wire and if its a 14 gauge copper wire they go down to a 12 gauge CCA wire to match the coppers out put ). Also coat hangers and cat 5 e cables and burial wire. That wires copper is very dark looking. Well I just wanted your thoughts on this subject? What do you all think? Jeff
The endless and annoying conversations on many audio/video websites about wires will continue until Earth itself is no more..... Not implying that your questions are of that sort.
The "boutique names" for wires and their compositions is mostly to impress the unwary and uneducated, in hopes that people will buy their products. A form of "snake oil sales" obviously.
But electrons - electricity, in all its forms, couldn't care less about a boutique name, and travel through a conductor regardless of its composition.
Yet, the people who are suckered-in to such hype about wire will swear by their experiences, even if it's in their own minds. The cryo-treated stuff started showing its head a while back, in everything from wires, to tubes, to resistors - all nonsense actually, but people actually believed in that crap.
The bottom line is - copper wire is copper wire, plain and simple. You use a decent copper wire for connections and that's that. For the usual home audio, a 16 gauge copper "zip cord/lamp cord" is plenty good enough. it's ohmage for a 25 foot run is perhaps 0.024 ohms - nothing to even discuss or concern yourself about.
As for that "coathanger" mention - people chose that in a blind test over expensive fancy speaker wiring - go figure. It's in their minds.
The "boutique names" for wires and their compositions is mostly to impress the unwary and uneducated, in hopes that people will buy their products. A form of "snake oil sales" obviously.
But electrons - electricity, in all its forms, couldn't care less about a boutique name, and travel through a conductor regardless of its composition.
Yet, the people who are suckered-in to such hype about wire will swear by their experiences, even if it's in their own minds. The cryo-treated stuff started showing its head a while back, in everything from wires, to tubes, to resistors - all nonsense actually, but people actually believed in that crap.
The bottom line is - copper wire is copper wire, plain and simple. You use a decent copper wire for connections and that's that. For the usual home audio, a 16 gauge copper "zip cord/lamp cord" is plenty good enough. it's ohmage for a 25 foot run is perhaps 0.024 ohms - nothing to even discuss or concern yourself about.
As for that "coathanger" mention - people chose that in a blind test over expensive fancy speaker wiring - go figure. It's in their minds.
Hi Jeffery,
How far are you going? How much power will you be running as an average.
For most normal applications, a fine stranded, very flexible copper with an 18 gauge or 16 gauge is sufficient. In Dave's case, there will be a lot of power loss and also a loss of damping factor. I have run what he is suggesting before and with a 12 watt pert channel amplifier, I lost almost all the power in the wire. It was a lesson for me. The other aspect is that if the speaker sees a high impedance, its output curve will begin to match its impedance curve. Not what you want most of the time.
Just a note to yourself. Most audio nonsense goes along with the wire vendors. No such thing as oxygen free as soon as you cut it, not that this matters if you solder or crimp your ends. Long grain copper? Copper is copper. Often the less expensive wire is steel plated with copper. Ignore charging the wire (biasing) and any number of other schemes as they are only separating your from your money. That and some wire can make amplifiers unstable (higher capacitance normally does that).
The physical appearance should be that of "zip cord", or normal lamp cord. You can space the conductors apart, doesn't help or hurt.
I have tested all kinds of speaker wire over the many years I've been in audio. The best wire is always a flexible, fine stranded copper wire that looks like two conductors running beside each other a lot like power cords on clock radios or other low powered items. Nothing fancy because fancy doesn't help at all.
-Chris
How far are you going? How much power will you be running as an average.
For most normal applications, a fine stranded, very flexible copper with an 18 gauge or 16 gauge is sufficient. In Dave's case, there will be a lot of power loss and also a loss of damping factor. I have run what he is suggesting before and with a 12 watt pert channel amplifier, I lost almost all the power in the wire. It was a lesson for me. The other aspect is that if the speaker sees a high impedance, its output curve will begin to match its impedance curve. Not what you want most of the time.
Just a note to yourself. Most audio nonsense goes along with the wire vendors. No such thing as oxygen free as soon as you cut it, not that this matters if you solder or crimp your ends. Long grain copper? Copper is copper. Often the less expensive wire is steel plated with copper. Ignore charging the wire (biasing) and any number of other schemes as they are only separating your from your money. That and some wire can make amplifiers unstable (higher capacitance normally does that).
The physical appearance should be that of "zip cord", or normal lamp cord. You can space the conductors apart, doesn't help or hurt.
I have tested all kinds of speaker wire over the many years I've been in audio. The best wire is always a flexible, fine stranded copper wire that looks like two conductors running beside each other a lot like power cords on clock radios or other low powered items. Nothing fancy because fancy doesn't help at all.
-Chris
Current needs are low, power loss is irrelevant, and many people think higher damping is a good thing, when it really needs to be matched with the speakers. (i just had a big argument with Chris on this subject, and he showed a significant lack of understanding of the principals).
Chris uses multiways with crossovers in them, so he needs a lot more power/current to push past those. His experience lies in that realm, not with FR drivers.
Wire thickness will affect bass, but it also affect shigher up. Trust your ears, and listen. You are the only one that matters when you sit down to listen to the music.
As wideoldtech stated, there is an aweful lot of snake oil in cables, but his brush takes far too wide a swipe. Cables can make a difference. It is system dependent, and discussion that does not include the system is a flawed discussion.
dave
Don't forget to follow the arrows printed on the cable.
They tell You in which direction the electrons flow....
Come on … AC is alternating current You know !!
For home I use standard 1-2sqmm copper cable. For PA use inside cabinets I prefer 4mm which attach better to the press-fit holes in the speaker terminals and don't come easily off with the bass ...
They tell You in which direction the electrons flow....
Come on … AC is alternating current You know !!
For home I use standard 1-2sqmm copper cable. For PA use inside cabinets I prefer 4mm which attach better to the press-fit holes in the speaker terminals and don't come easily off with the bass ...
Dave,
I have a lot of experience with single driver systems, and electronically crossed over multi amp systems.
2. My take on it was that you didn't understand the basic principles. I just agreed to disagree with you. That's a win??
3. Current through a high resistance wire dissipates heat, or a loss of energy. Doesn't matter whether you are running a current source or voltage source type of amplifier. Energy loss is energy loss. Period. Also called I R losses (I wonder why).
4. Speakers driven from high impedance sources tend to change their frequency response to match their impedance curves. Higher impedance sources also have low to fractional damping factors.
All of the above is true, and it has to be since it is based on physics. If you can disprove anything that I've said, have at it. But you will be trying to buck the laws of physics and that won't go well for you.
-Chris
I have a lot of experience with single driver systems, and electronically crossed over multi amp systems.
1. It wasn't a big argument for starters
2. My take on it was that you didn't understand the basic principles. I just agreed to disagree with you. That's a win??
3. Current through a high resistance wire dissipates heat, or a loss of energy. Doesn't matter whether you are running a current source or voltage source type of amplifier. Energy loss is energy loss. Period. Also called I R losses (I wonder why).
4. Speakers driven from high impedance sources tend to change their frequency response to match their impedance curves. Higher impedance sources also have low to fractional damping factors.
All of the above is true, and it has to be since it is based on physics. If you can disprove anything that I've said, have at it. But you will be trying to buck the laws of physics and that won't go well for you.
-Chris
I doubt it, it's usually enough for Dave to get his "ideas" out thereThat should be a very interesting subject....
Well, there’s physics, then there’s Marianne Williamson grade metaphysics. If you just love your hi-fi
system enough it’ll sound exactly like you want it to. Expectation / confirmation.
I’ve used a fair range of types of speaker and interconnect wire / cabling geometries over my 50yrs playing around with audio gear, and the generic house brand “zip” wire from Home Depot /Lowe’s etc works just fine for me - usually no thicker than #16 for runs of less than 50ft, but definitely #14 or so for subs.
system enough it’ll sound exactly like you want it to. Expectation / confirmation.
I’ve used a fair range of types of speaker and interconnect wire / cabling geometries over my 50yrs playing around with audio gear, and the generic house brand “zip” wire from Home Depot /Lowe’s etc works just fine for me - usually no thicker than #16 for runs of less than 50ft, but definitely #14 or so for subs.
Last edited:
Exactly.
16 gauge copper zip wire is all you need for the average system in an average home room.
Anything else is just babble.
Thanks everyone for sharing and explaining your thoughts on this topic. I know a lot is marketing with fancy terms and tricky words with a sales pitch. I was wondering and now I got my answers. Cheers Jeff
P.s. I think my home depot quite selling zip cord speaker cable? I will go and look into it? I know they have 14 gauge in wall wire by the foot. Cheers Jeff
P.s. I think my home depot quite selling zip cord speaker cable? I will go and look into it? I know they have 14 gauge in wall wire by the foot. Cheers Jeff
I beg to differ, but not here.
8 ft of singke strands of 24g is about 0.2Ω. Unlikely to be greater than the R in the 1st inductor in an XO. Insignificant.
While true, completely irrelevant. A speaker needs to be matched to the amplifier (and the wire connecting them). I find that many amps over-damp speakers (ie too much damping), in which case some extra series R does not hurt.
I can’t but you make the assumption that “bigger is better” when that is not the case. If it was all about damping no one would be making tube amps, especially SETs, there would be no Firstwatt F1 or F2.
dave
Seeing as you're talking physics, may I say that an I²R power loss is even worse!
The same way that cryo-treating engines gives them more horsepower. When on e looks at the things that cry-treating improves you realize things are subtler than you make out.
Like David Suzuli on the Nature of Thingsjust now, eating right isn’t about calories, carbs, fat, protein. They are all too far a simplistic measure of what is in food.
dave
Now I’m curious. Since you built many cabinets for Dave over the years do you subscribe to the “single strand of 24 gauge” viewpoint for his cabinet/driver combinations? Is that for internal wiring only? I’m certainly not trying to prove or disprove a certain viewpoint. It’s just that you have more insight into Dave’s viewpoint by virtue of experience.
- Status
- Not open for further replies.