Hi,
thanks for all your help. Tbh I don't know what to say
In first place I must decide which kind of horn to use. Then I can decide if I take a 12" or 15" but I understand now that 15" could be better. I have this feeling that 90° horizontal could be too much. The horns I liked most had between 70° and 80°. But the speaker didn't stand in the corners. They had about a meter distance to the side and back wall. 40° in the vertical should be great so I don't have much reflections from the ceiling.
Absorption wouldn't be a big problem as I planned 3 broadband absorbers. If I save the space from the bass traps even 5 or 6 large absorbers should be doable. Do I need to go strictly after Geddes with multisub? Or do you think there is a chance of using the mains from 80 or 100hz?
Mono bass is no problem for me. I'm listening to vinyl so I am used to that. My current situation is much worse anyway...
I'm have an idea of a modular approach. I could select drivers for the multisub, a 15" woofer and a nice 2" CD which goes low enough. Then I could start testing different horns. I already have a 30cm tractrix at home. Before spending too much time with thinking about the perfect horn (this drives me crazy) I could just test it. I like the drivers from Calpamos. I could try them with the PH2380 or with my tractrix or even with another 60°x40° horn. I could add a 12cm tractrix for the high freqencies to my bigger tractrix and so on. There are a lot of possibilities. Only thing to remember is that I want to build speakers to make music, not to be building speakers the next years...
thanks for all your help. Tbh I don't know what to say
In first place I must decide which kind of horn to use. Then I can decide if I take a 12" or 15" but I understand now that 15" could be better. I have this feeling that 90° horizontal could be too much. The horns I liked most had between 70° and 80°. But the speaker didn't stand in the corners. They had about a meter distance to the side and back wall. 40° in the vertical should be great so I don't have much reflections from the ceiling.
Absorption wouldn't be a big problem as I planned 3 broadband absorbers. If I save the space from the bass traps even 5 or 6 large absorbers should be doable. Do I need to go strictly after Geddes with multisub? Or do you think there is a chance of using the mains from 80 or 100hz?
Mono bass is no problem for me. I'm listening to vinyl so I am used to that. My current situation is much worse anyway...
Do you have an example for a wall like this? A picture would be great.
I'm have an idea of a modular approach. I could select drivers for the multisub, a 15" woofer and a nice 2" CD which goes low enough. Then I could start testing different horns. I already have a 30cm tractrix at home. Before spending too much time with thinking about the perfect horn (this drives me crazy) I could just test it. I like the drivers from Calpamos. I could try them with the PH2380 or with my tractrix or even with another 60°x40° horn. I could add a 12cm tractrix for the high freqencies to my bigger tractrix and so on. There are a lot of possibilities. Only thing to remember is that I want to build speakers to make music, not to be building speakers the next years...
Ah! Now we are talking about speakers i could use as my bedroom system!
More seriously Troels Gravesen comments are spot on in my view. And the design have interesting features...
In fact the design you talk about is a joint effort of Xrk and Bushmeister ( and others which will recognize themself) from an idea of Xrk.
Here is the outcome (and an interesting comparison from someone who own both different system ( direct radiating drivers and horn loaded -and live with them):
Comparison of 'Xbush Sphere synergy horn', versus 'Balls of Prestige'.
Here is an interesting design too which have been build by Mark100 member here which he highly praise:
60 Degree DIY Mid Hi - AKA PM60 | Sound Forums
What all they have in common is the horn.
Probably one of the best one you could find at the moment in 60x40.
Hi diyiggy,
Let's take a look at the horn used for hi mid in the Ls1 ( it was a joke i didn't meant to build a pair but to take a look at what is done in it... i could have talked about a DSL Jericho horn too... but with it it could work! Scary thing!).
This is the same 18 sound Xt1464 used in the Bushmeister's sphere (which is not widely different than Zmyrna solution) and in PM60.
It'll fullfil the requirement of around 600hz horn loaded. The issue being it will need an 1,5" rather than a 2" compression drivers. Some reference comes to my mind as Jbl 2450* which could work. The Bms coax works quite good on them ( from Mark100 and Peter Morris which both own and tryed them) but i fear they'll be to pricey.
Was you asking about cornerloading in one of your last post about dsp?
*I've eard them used on th4001 xover at 640hz and even lower and they were quite good to my ears.
Let's take a look at the horn used for hi mid in the Ls1 ( it was a joke i didn't meant to build a pair but to take a look at what is done in it... i could have talked about a DSL Jericho horn too... but with it it could work! Scary thing!).
This is the same 18 sound Xt1464 used in the Bushmeister's sphere (which is not widely different than Zmyrna solution) and in PM60.
It'll fullfil the requirement of around 600hz horn loaded. The issue being it will need an 1,5" rather than a 2" compression drivers. Some reference comes to my mind as Jbl 2450* which could work. The Bms coax works quite good on them ( from Mark100 and Peter Morris which both own and tryed them) but i fear they'll be to pricey.
Was you asking about cornerloading in one of your last post about dsp?
*I've eard them used on th4001 xover at 640hz and even lower and they were quite good to my ears.
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The XL1464 has excellent reviews with its dedicated cd unit.
In the Ls1 & 2 I believe the 18" will energize the little room too much. But have no experienced it in real life. Certainly : the 3 way faital classic from the same guy is certainly a better bet for the size but... he hasn't the horn in the treble whished, nore the low horn loading till 600 hz on the items list.
I also always found a 15" without lense vs VotT for instance, gives often bad human voices when crossed too high as we can see too often like the Calapamos. Drunmberg should stay on his 12" Faital idea. But if one can put 4 x 15" or more in such room, I have nothing against it... it's just I never had the luck to hear something like this properly made. I don't think a cd in a horn is more linear than a classic good tweeter. I think what is liked is the behavior when choosing such tech in homes : subjective dynamic feeling... but again there were so much progress from ten years due to better price of W, EQ, dsp, forums sharing...ANd I relly believe what is looked for here is not something so neutral but a sound type... It's always trade offs. The room ruling all the other rings ! Not sure you can flat infinitly a PA driver with EQ without consequences... not sure... that's why I talked about powerfull pc cause all the taps in FIR domain is a little hungry, but maybe I'm wrong (stuffs are so powerfull in Ghz and Ram today....). at iso Sd why not an vertical array of several 6" or 8" vs a big huge PA driver ? the array should have a better behavior in a little room, no ?
Whatever Drunmberg chooses at the end of the day, I believe the only true challenge is bass integration of the project as he pointed out. So why not the 12" he chose or a 15" open back with a Linkwitz transform ? It gives a subjective bass feeling people like...and is easy to make.
In the Ls1 & 2 I believe the 18" will energize the little room too much. But have no experienced it in real life. Certainly : the 3 way faital classic from the same guy is certainly a better bet for the size but... he hasn't the horn in the treble whished, nore the low horn loading till 600 hz on the items list.
I also always found a 15" without lense vs VotT for instance, gives often bad human voices when crossed too high as we can see too often like the Calapamos. Drunmberg should stay on his 12" Faital idea. But if one can put 4 x 15" or more in such room, I have nothing against it... it's just I never had the luck to hear something like this properly made. I don't think a cd in a horn is more linear than a classic good tweeter. I think what is liked is the behavior when choosing such tech in homes : subjective dynamic feeling... but again there were so much progress from ten years due to better price of W, EQ, dsp, forums sharing...ANd I relly believe what is looked for here is not something so neutral but a sound type... It's always trade offs. The room ruling all the other rings ! Not sure you can flat infinitly a PA driver with EQ without consequences... not sure... that's why I talked about powerfull pc cause all the taps in FIR domain is a little hungry, but maybe I'm wrong (stuffs are so powerfull in Ghz and Ram today....). at iso Sd why not an vertical array of several 6" or 8" vs a big huge PA driver ? the array should have a better behavior in a little room, no ?
Whatever Drunmberg chooses at the end of the day, I believe the only true challenge is bass integration of the project as he pointed out. So why not the 12" he chose or a 15" open back with a Linkwitz transform ? It gives a subjective bass feeling people like...and is easy to make.
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Yes. It can happen ( more often than never) but it mainly depend of the driver and it's intended use. Careful choice of the driver and crossover frequency choice can work.
I whitness this every time i use my own digital chain with my Technics SB-M2 (even if i modified crossover points since i modded them to dsp multi amp). Initially the 15" was xover at 750hz to the 3"/4" mid driver and it sounded very neutral.
Imho it'll depend a lot in the horn choosen and the way to mat it to the driver: 'econowave' style or 'classic way' ( Tad/Galapagos).
We have a lot of luck to have access to comprehensive simulation software for loudspeaker design and with a bit of guesswork and simulators it is possible to more or less predict what will happen with room acoustic.
Have you read E.Geddes research about compression drivers and distortion? This is enlightning. Yes this is a subjective thingy, it had been expressed before. But, if these technology ( compression driver and high efficiency) was horrible do you think there will be a cult following TAD for example? Most amateur doesn't even realize those drivers and horn were developed for P.A. duties!
You are absolutely right with eq: overdoing this won't bring anygood! The point being to know what to correct and why. It is sometimes better to leave some issue alone than to try compensate them. It is a preference thing too.
Compound of drivers in vertical axes have their own merit but they sound different than a single equivalent bigger driver.
The B&W case is well known: they changed the 15" to 2x10" in the 800 range some years back. It was a requirement from sales/marketing department and engineers clearly explained the sound was better with a single 15". But we live in a money driven world and as more is always better the range is now 2x10", bye bye 15".
Why not go with multiple bigger driver?!
How i see thing about dipole is that :
_ they won't go low enough with enough spl,
_ this will be too much different from what we are usually accustomed to play on for this kind of music.
Don't take me wrong, the fact to not have a box sound is just great, but it impose it's own set of drawback. The two one posted above are the main, the other one i see being that from my experience for dipole to sound good you need space. In this case there is not.
An other thing being the 'ambiance' dipole brings to the table is nice with classical or acoustical music ( if it is your kind of presentation) but it's not something looked for in electronic music.
You're right about TAD, many cult this without having listening the miracle... and it was often half of a miracle because integration... well we know Be helped a lot in the diagphragm.
I don't see the BW you're talking about in a so much little room. i never was able to listen TAD + Onken in a little space and it always asked long distance sweet spot (> 5 m minimum)
Well that's why I asked to look at the discussion between Juhazi and Linwitz about the bass and the two octaves. I saw D. is not listening only electronic music...Anyway, I really think 20 hz in 15m² is a challenge and will be boomy or mask the upper registers in a way they will be less precise and less neutral. But ok the Fir EQ amplitude solve a part of the group delay but will not stop the room to enter in vibration and play ping pong with the 17 meters and uppers wave length... I may be wrong. I would like much to read : let's go with high Sd but with a limited low end for a better result with a high F3 sealed and a smooth low end curve... but each time I forgett the original poster have a lot of tools too : multiamp and EQ.
Well it's not about each other system , let's wait the experiments of D. ... I think he knows 80% of his road map. There are also good horns choice from the Poland horn site (Urushi, Tad, Le Cleach, ... But imo he can not go wrong with the 18thSound horn you talked about... a little -4 or - 5 db in the 2.5 to 4.5 k hz with eq....and voila ! Not sure about the low end usefull range though ? 800 hz ?
Let see what follow, the Calapamos have the advantage of a ready made design which increases the sucess at the end... (don't get me wrong, I never listen to it, but I never liked 15" with a horn above but the VotT...with the good Altec drivers...and memory can be a b..h too !)
About Gedle : read what is writting Patrick Batman about the 15" model in little space ! Now I would like to listen a Gedlee horn speaker with DSP for the bass unit and (if needed) the distributed bass... Never see one in real life...
I don't see the BW you're talking about in a so much little room. i never was able to listen TAD + Onken in a little space and it always asked long distance sweet spot (> 5 m minimum)
Well that's why I asked to look at the discussion between Juhazi and Linwitz about the bass and the two octaves. I saw D. is not listening only electronic music...Anyway, I really think 20 hz in 15m² is a challenge and will be boomy or mask the upper registers in a way they will be less precise and less neutral. But ok the Fir EQ amplitude solve a part of the group delay but will not stop the room to enter in vibration and play ping pong with the 17 meters and uppers wave length... I may be wrong. I would like much to read : let's go with high Sd but with a limited low end for a better result with a high F3 sealed and a smooth low end curve... but each time I forgett the original poster have a lot of tools too : multiamp and EQ.
Well it's not about each other system
, let's wait the experiments of D. ... I think he knows 80% of his road map. There are also good horns choice from the Poland horn site (Urushi, Tad, Le Cleach, ... But imo he can not go wrong with the 18thSound horn you talked about... a little -4 or - 5 db in the 2.5 to 4.5 k hz with eq....and voila ! Not sure about the low end usefull range though ? 800 hz ?Let see what follow, the Calapamos have the advantage of a ready made design which increases the sucess at the end... (don't get me wrong, I never listen to it, but I never liked 15" with a horn above but the VotT...with the good Altec drivers...and memory can be a b..h too !)
About Gedle : read what is writting Patrick Batman about the 15" model in little space
! Now I would like to listen a Gedlee horn speaker with DSP for the bass unit and (if needed) the distributed bass... Never see one in real life...
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Ok i know this is counterintuitive but the low frequency does not need a lot of room to be reproduced: is there any room when you listen through...headphone? Can't you hear low frequency?
About group delay, once you are below schroeder frequency this is meaningless as the this is the room which dictate what happen. There is one point i didn't want to adress to soon about that because it is more acoustic related but here we go.
The way the room is build will dictate what to expect. In EU we face the worst issues ( often this is not always the case) as our building techniques are made to 'last': either the build is old and it is made of stone/ cement and sometime with really thick structural walls, either it is new and it is a concrete shell, literally.
In both case this is troublesome for low end as you face 'bass build up', there is no way for the wavefront to escape and the low end 'ring'.
In US the build technique is much more 'light': the structure is usually from wood and is definately 'leaky'.
So what does it mean for us speakerbuilder: in the case of a leaky build you'll need more efficiency as you'll 'loose' sound.
In the case of 'heavy' build technique this is the opposite we would ideally need not to much efficiency or we will have issue as it'll trigger the room to easily.
In other words ( and as Drumberg already talked about closed box design): light built something around 0.707 Qtc ( or higher),
Heavy build 0,577 Qtc (or lower more probably). And as we are in a situation were we recommended multiple sub, if we decide to trade Spl for extension a Linkwitz Transform may help A LOT to adapt the box to whatever reasonnable size and extension in freqency response we could hope for. And let's not forget that something like 0,577 qtc is a bessel alignement so...with good transient response.
I have a question to you Diyiggy as you talk a lot about onken and TAD, i've never seen something like that! The Tad i've seen were all BR, the Kinoshita/Rey audio too (in Hidley's design this is what is used. Kinoshita being the mind behind most of Tad drivers and horn it doesn't change anything). Where have you seen thing like that?
I haven't heard a Gedlee loudspeaker neither. There is something about the Summa Patrick Bateman owned, the waveguide used by Geddes is big as it is almost 18" iirc. This will lead to same issue about integration as other 'big' horn Medium Tweeter design.
Going MTM change a lot about that AND solve other issues at the same time (floor/ceilling bounce are minimised). That said this kind of presentation doesn't suit everyone taste/preference, i qualify it as 'straightforward/ projected' presentation. But as it'll already have a kind of 'headphone' like presentation as stated by Plasnu, it shouldn't be to problematic.
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As long as the system is eq'd flat and the lowest note of the passband is played at a decent volume, really low distortion, and plenty of headroom post room eq.... Yes.
As long as you are also monitoring your mix/masters elsewhere to check the ill represented (10khz-20khz) top end....Yes
Whats the reasons behind this? Doesn't sound correct to me.
Thats interesting...I don't agree.
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I can't folow the logic. A room is not a headphone, bass in a headphone is not bass in a room or a cathedral with the lowest note of a pipe (11 hz?). cancelations in rooms, high and low pressure areas are a fact...the load of the room compression and release of air is certainly not the same, the way the space between tynphan and emiters are hard to compare with.
I talked about Helmotz frequency already. Okay.
Concrete & bricks exist outside Europe as well. plaster walls are leaky too.
I don't got it about the Qtc and the walls despite I understand what it is about. What do you try to explain between a perfect transcient and something a little slower 0.77 but still good enough, do we talk about matching a mid with an esl or with a compression or do we talk about the first octave ??? I like more 0.55 to 0.77 for classical for some reasons, I have no problem at all someone likes more a loudness bass with 1.0 or more...anyway, the room rules, and if you had no back wall you still have the 4 other surfaces... For me the first octave is always a mess. But it's jus involving my personal tastes. Maybe I should try to listen the first octave in a reccording studio... totally of topic; As I said we don't discuss about the op choices. After few posts it was clear 80% of the design choice is already made... so we disgress ! It's not me you have to convince (btw I'm not). I believe we are totally in th epersonal choices, trade offs, bias and own tastes here.
I was not talking about the Tad you use in studios but the diy you can see everywhere in the world : Tad horns or copy or close with Tad compression driver in it and many system below,big onken with two units not being the last.Onken is not a sealed (while you can tune by clsoing some vents.
That's what I said before, a Gedlee 10" when it was avaliable for diy could have been fun for D. But I don't understand why we are discuss about that. I really have no problem with the fact one want big and boomy (first octave in a too much little room without hard work.
My personal tastes which are ot but are mostly rock-jazz-classical-world/traditional work good with a fast and redable mid-bass (understand Bessel if possible) so a big reduction of the forst octave is not a problem in my life, while I didn't said I like stiff curves in the low end (24 db). Trade offs...trade offs.
@ Drunberg : did you see the Galactica on Humble home made with cool PHL drivers ? Don't know if they are still easily sourcable though... excelenr drivers like the the Audax pro if efficienty is needed. Faital is certainly as good... I know anybody around me having benchmarked both though.
I talked about Helmotz frequency already. Okay.
Concrete & bricks exist outside Europe as well. plaster walls are leaky too.
I don't got it about the Qtc and the walls despite I understand what it is about. What do you try to explain between a perfect transcient and something a little slower 0.77 but still good enough, do we talk about matching a mid with an esl or with a compression or do we talk about the first octave ??? I like more 0.55 to 0.77 for classical for some reasons, I have no problem at all someone likes more a loudness bass with 1.0 or more...anyway, the room rules, and if you had no back wall you still have the 4 other surfaces... For me the first octave is always a mess. But it's jus involving my personal tastes. Maybe I should try to listen the first octave in a reccording studio... totally of topic; As I said we don't discuss about the op choices. After few posts it was clear 80% of the design choice is already made... so we disgress ! It's not me you have to convince (btw I'm not). I believe we are totally in th epersonal choices, trade offs, bias and own tastes here.
I was not talking about the Tad you use in studios but the diy you can see everywhere in the world : Tad horns or copy or close with Tad compression driver in it and many system below,big onken with two units not being the last.Onken is not a sealed (while you can tune by clsoing some vents.
That's what I said before, a Gedlee 10" when it was avaliable for diy could have been fun for D. But I don't understand why we are discuss about that. I really have no problem with the fact one want big and boomy (first octave in a too much little room without hard work.
My personal tastes which are ot but are mostly rock-jazz-classical-world/traditional work good with a fast and redable mid-bass (understand Bessel if possible) so a big reduction of the forst octave is not a problem in my life, while I didn't said I like stiff curves in the low end (24 db). Trade offs...trade offs.
@ Drunberg : did you see the Galactica on Humble home made with cool PHL drivers ? Don't know if they are still easily sourcable though... excelenr drivers like the the Audax pro if efficienty is needed. Faital is certainly as good... I know anybody around me having benchmarked both though.
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Guys maybe you should discuss the frrst octave in a new post, i hve the feeling it's not helping the op and his needs.
FIR EQ amplitude and group delay is an interessant things, would like to understand how it solves the echo in corners, echos, etc... but I don't think it's the good thread... just saying. We are going in a DRC topic.
FIR EQ amplitude and group delay is an interessant things, would like to understand how it solves the echo in corners, echos, etc... but I don't think it's the good thread... just saying. We are going in a DRC topic.
Just for clarity The Loudspeaker is using the XT1086 1" waveguide from 18 Sound not the 1.4"XT1464.
Also the compression driver used is a 1" 1095NSD which has pretty good performance in the top octave, so the use of a supertweeter is more about taste than the driver not being able to deliver the frequency response unless you are looking for response above 20K.
Also dipole bass does not have to be a big woofer with high Qts on a wide baffle either. I had an LX521 with 10"SEAS woofers and they could shift a lot of air and go very low with the right EQ. It was always the higher frequency drivers that limited the SPL not the woofers.
Dipole bass in the 40 to 100Hz range makes a lot of sense in a concrete bunker
Also the compression driver used is a 1" 1095NSD which has pretty good performance in the top octave, so the use of a supertweeter is more about taste than the driver not being able to deliver the frequency response unless you are looking for response above 20K.
Also dipole bass does not have to be a big woofer with high Qts on a wide baffle either. I had an LX521 with 10"SEAS woofers and they could shift a lot of air and go very low with the right EQ. It was always the higher frequency drivers that limited the SPL not the woofers.
Dipole bass in the 40 to 100Hz range makes a lot of sense in a concrete bunker
What you are not in agreement with me! Such a scandal!
Isn't it what make life interesting to have different opinions?
https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/mul...m-spl-low-distortion-2-a-415.html#post5969809
https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/mul...m-spl-low-distortion-2-a-415.html#post5969994
I thought i had posted this too in your thread but i can't find it so either i didn't, either it disapeared ,either you made it disapear Camplo! As i think there is a conspiracy against myself, you are the culprit Camplo!
https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/226585-hear-delay-100hz-13.html#post4080365
Take a look at the graph. Once the room 'take control' the outcome is dictated by it's own behavior, as perfect your loudspeaker group delay is it'll be skrewed by the room behavior.
That's why i told and get answered:
https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/351999-proper-tune-vented-design-sq-4.html#post6147092
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That is interesting. So bass is not bass anymore when you change the place it develop itself : is it changed?
I always thought ( and teached to student) a sound is: something defined by a ratio of frequency, amplitude and phase. The place where this happen doesn't enter into account. This is why an FFT ( fast fourrier transformation) works and you can 'dissect' a sound into an infinity of sinus with each a different set of this three parameters.
That's why i told it is counterintuitive but if you take a cathedral and the inner tunel leading to our tynphan both are 'rooms' ( and whatever in between). It doesn't matter the room, the 11hz tone will be produced. What happen within the room is another matter we agree and this is 'acoustic' domain.
We agree except for the last part both are 'rooms'.
And what is helmotz frequency? Are we talking about basstrap or BR? Have you mixed up with Schroeder frequency?
I AM talking sub/low end and the way to deal with the room ( integrate it).
Qtc in closed box: this is a three variable equation. You have Frequency Response, Phase behavior and Volume of box involved. Thanks to Siegfried Linkwitz we have something predictable to play with in order to adapt FR and P independently of box volume ( to an extend). So if we focus on FR and P we can adapt our loudspeaker behavior to the room it will be in. In a 'leaky' space we can favour 'efficiency' with over >0,707 qtc value (but we will compromise phase an thus transient and FR) .
In a concrete shell we will favour FR extension and Phase but you'll compromise max Spl ( because the LT).
About recording studio you'll probably be disappointed: the reality being all not studio have had an acoustician involved and even if so the outcome may be compromised either because of constraints ( volume of room. Eg: for a studio i built we contacted T.Hidley's collaborators. First question asked by them was volume availlable, we gave the answer ( and it wasn't tiny to me) and we got a 'no to small we can't garantee end results within this constraint, sorry.') Or realisation or... the end results are never garanteed.
.
I never expressed a will to convince anybody. I though it was obvious from my first answers.
We disgress yeah, around the topic so... but i agree i'am in freewheel!
Sorry this is my 'thing' andbit was part of my previous job... and more interesting to me that the usual 'domestic' situation were you have people wanting 20hz/20khz at 130dbspl in a bedroom with a 6,5" two way.
OK got it. Maybe we talk about that because it is related to topic and there is so much option possible.
Who in the hell said we are listening to only electronic music (audio engineer)? A pre requisite to work in that field is to love music, whatever it is. To be honest i sometimes refused to work on materials which was to close to what i liked or produced because the chances were high i switch to an operator role to be an artistic producer.
And to be clear I listen to almost everything mankind ever produced... not only ugly electronic mayhem.
Atm Getz/Gilberto is playing... girl from ipanema... such a masterpiece!
Fluid: you are right, i'm sorry i can't remember and mix up the reference all the time. I'm gettin'old.
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