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Multi-Way Conventional loudspeakers with crossovers

Working the crossover for better impedance
Working the crossover for better impedance
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Old 26th March 2020, 09:15 PM   #61
Kustomize123 is offline Kustomize123
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Oh probably, I only listened till english anyway. :P

So I listened to Magic Carpet.

The vocals part that I understood clearly were when "Well, you don't know what we can find" part comes in, and mostly when the music almost stops, and "Close your eyes girl, look inside girl" part comes. Other than that, it was really hard for me to make of it.

Imaging is good on my speakers, I could all 3 different instruments being played at once, Left, right, and center. So something to appreciate :P
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Old 26th March 2020, 09:24 PM   #62
Douglas Blake is offline Douglas Blake  Canada
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Something to consider ... the clarity problem you're having could well be your sources. At a recording engineers conference one of them admitted to releasing recordings with upwards of 30% distortion on them.

This excerpt from the seminar is well worth watching...
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Old 26th March 2020, 09:36 PM   #63
Kustomize123 is offline Kustomize123
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This is exactly why I am hoping someone could test all our tests on their system and share results with us! Do you have the same issue with the song you linked me?

Last edited by AllenB; 26th March 2020 at 10:25 PM. Reason: Remove excess quoting
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Old 27th March 2020, 12:07 PM   #64
waxx is online now waxx  Belgium
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With all respect, but the crossover networks shown here are far from optimised i think. I saw a big current loss at the woofer, and the response and impendance also did not look good. So i took my take on it (starting from Douglas Blake last effort). I think this is way more optimised, and the drivers are phase aligned now in the crossover. And i have to say, these ain't easy drivers to get right in the crossover... You can temper the top frequencies by rasing the R4 value if you think that is needed
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Old 27th March 2020, 01:40 PM   #65
Douglas Blake is offline Douglas Blake  Canada
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Quote:
Originally Posted by waxx View Post
With all respect, but the crossover networks shown here are far from optimised i think. I saw a big current loss at the woofer, and the response and impendance also did not look good.
Interesting ... a 16 ohm design, not bad.

However; There as no "big current loss" in my last design ... The woofers were in parallel giving a 4 ohm impedance. That means that each woofer was carrying 1/2 of the total current... 2 amps plus 2 amps == 4 amps, as the current graphs below show you.

In your design, with the woofers in series, both woofers carry all the current but the voltage is divided between them.

Your current graph lines up nicely but it is false to claim current loss in my design.

Also, please note that a 16 ohm design, while perfectly valid, will produce a somewhat reduced output... your graph is showing 100db, mine about 106. This is because 16 ohms draws 1/4 the current of a 4 ohm design... thus producing only 1/4 the power. In this case that's not necessarily a bad thing since Denon specs 6 ohms as a minimum.
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Last edited by Douglas Blake; 27th March 2020 at 01:45 PM.
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Old 27th March 2020, 02:00 PM   #66
Pharos is offline Pharos  United Kingdom
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Douglas Blake View Post
Interesting ... a 16 ohm design, not bad.

However; There as no "big current loss" in my last design ... The woofers were in parallel giving a 4 ohm impedance. That means that each woofer was carrying 1/2 of the total current... 2 amps plus 2 amps == 4 amps, as the current graphs below show you.

In your design, with the woofers in series, both woofers carry all the current but the voltage is divided between them.

Your current graph lines up nicely but it is false to claim current loss in my design.

Also, please note that a 16 ohm design, while perfectly valid, will produce a somewhat reduced output... your graph is showing 100db, mine about 106. This is because 16 ohms draws 1/4 the current of a 4 ohm design... thus producing only 1/4 the power. In this case that's not necessarily a bad thing since Denon specs 6 ohms as a minimum.
Thanks for the video on compression, useful but a little verbose and poor articulation, a trend today, minimal information, but from someone privileged enough to have access to it.

I am astounded at 20% distortion, and if this is from masters, my criticism of FM quality on another thread, (which Alan Shaw of Harbeth has stated as up to 10%), becomes engulfed in this. And I have been sitting there worrying about my system.

Bill Woodman of ATC stated that using woofers in series was, paraphrasing, actually riddled with problems.

This compression business serves to remove one of the major forms in musical expression, thus diluting attempts to communicate.

Several years ago KEF decided to attempt 4 ohm speakers because of the increased sensitivity, and they were tightly controlled Z wise.

Last edited by Pharos; 27th March 2020 at 02:02 PM.
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Old 27th March 2020, 02:13 PM   #67
Kustomize123 is offline Kustomize123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Douglas Blake View Post
Interesting ... a 16 ohm design, not bad.

However; There as no "big current loss" in my last design ... The woofers were in parallel giving a 4 ohm impedance. That means that each woofer was carrying 1/2 of the total current... 2 amps plus 2 amps == 4 amps, as the current graphs below show you.

In your design, with the woofers in series, both woofers carry all the current but the voltage is divided between them.

Your current graph lines up nicely but it is false to claim current loss in my design.

Also, please note that a 16 ohm design, while perfectly valid, will produce a somewhat reduced output... your graph is showing 100db, mine about 106. This is because 16 ohms draws 1/4 the current of a 4 ohm design... thus producing only 1/4 the power. In this case that's not necessarily a bad thing since Denon specs 6 ohms as a minimum.
If 16 ohms limits the max SPL attainable, this is definitely something that I'd like addressed if possible. Showing off my system needs to go loud, people (my friends ) perceive louder as better.

I am no expert in any of this, whatever must be done to get the most out of these two driver set would require all your expertise!

All I can do is measure my current setup and report!
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Old 27th March 2020, 02:54 PM   #68
Douglas Blake is offline Douglas Blake  Canada
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pharos View Post
I am astounded at 20% distortion, and if this is from masters, my criticism of FM quality on another thread, (which Alan Shaw of Harbeth has stated as up to 10%), becomes engulfed in this. And I have been sitting there worrying about my system.
Like it or not, we are all slaves to our sources. The best we can hope to achieve is to faithfully reproduce the information on our source recordings. Our task is to choose and set up equipment that does this for us.

Aside from this single assurance, there is literally nothing we can do about it. A bad recording is a bad recording and nothing done to our systems is going to fix that... well, except in the rare cases where we actually have access to the source recordings themselves.

With respect to FM radio ... consider the 10% inherent in the modulation format plus the 20% (or more) in the source recordings ... then whatever is contributed by your amps and speakers... You are likely listening to 50% or more distortion without even realising it.

Last edited by Douglas Blake; 27th March 2020 at 03:22 PM.
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Old 27th March 2020, 03:08 PM   #69
Douglas Blake is offline Douglas Blake  Canada
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kustomize123 View Post
If 16 ohms limits the max SPL attainable, this is definitely something that I'd like addressed if possible. Showing off my system needs to go loud, people (my friends ) perceive louder as better.
Okay... that's not true, but if that's what you are stuck with...

Our ears perceive sound differently at different levels. They have evolved to facilitate communication with others. Our most sensitive and detailed hearing is thus at "conversational" levels. That is roughly the loudness of normal speech. Below that we lose information due to background noise and the threshold of our hearing. Above that sensory overload sets in and at some point it just becomes a giant loud roar.

If you really want to know what your speakers can do, set the volume so that you can talk with your friends in a slightly elevated voice... then sit back in the sweet spot and listen. A fine example of the details that reveals was in "Magic Carpet Ride"... riveted symbols, a fine detail that is lost to either too quiet or too loud playback. Also, in that song, most people hear 3 instruments... organ, bass and guitar... but there are actually 2 guitars, bass, drums, organ and vocals.

Another factor in this is XMax ... the limits of speaker cone movement. As you approach that with high volumes, the cone is less and less able to respond to small changes. It's basically working as a compressor, pushing only the big details...

Quote:
All I can do is measure my current setup and report!
The first task, is to get busy taking measurements in REW, from your sweet spot, to find the best speaker positions. I'm looking forward to seeing your results as they will give me good information for the next iteration of this process...

Last edited by Douglas Blake; 27th March 2020 at 03:23 PM.
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Old 27th March 2020, 04:26 PM   #70
waxx is online now waxx  Belgium
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kustomize123 View Post
If 16 ohms limits the max SPL attainable, this is definitely something that I'd like addressed if possible. Showing off my system needs to go loud, people (my friends ) perceive louder as better.

I am no expert in any of this, whatever must be done to get the most out of these two driver set would require all your expertise!

All I can do is measure my current setup and report!
The speaker is still capable to go as loud as with 4R, It just need more watts to do that. So that is an easy fix. In series it will go to low in impendance (down to 3R) for your amp to drive and and you will blow up your amp when trying if i hear your amp can only handle 6R and above. So better use it like this in series.

Also, your tweeter can't keep up with the woofers in series as it's efficiency is to low for that on the crossover point. And if you push it further, you get into the upper resonance zone of the woofer, wich is not good at all...
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