Have you placed the speakers on top of eachother (coincident)?
If you now add a head at a distance from the speaker (how ever it is constructed) and add the different path lengths to the different ears, then it should hopefully be obvious what this thread is really about.
A Mid Side Speaker Array for A Big Ambient Sweet Spot - Pro Audio Design Forum
The link above is to an MS speaker project.
Although he has made no attempt to optimise the acoustic size of the speakers, some of his comments on the sounds produced are interesting. I think Wayne is an infrequent posting member of this forum.
Keith
The link above is to an MS speaker project.
Although he has made no attempt to optimise the acoustic size of the speakers, some of his comments on the sounds produced are interesting. I think Wayne is an infrequent posting member of this forum.
Keith
It's a perfect example of three speaker stereo that uses M, S/sqrt(2) and -S/sqrt(2) as its inputs - although one suspects the S channel is implemented with +3dB gain here instead.
The intention appears to be use the side walls as reflectors for the S-channels, in which case it is very "wide angle" stereo offering the worst combing effects possible (although only in the S-channel) and maximising the S-channel delay. The resulting 'ambience' I suspect is incoherence augmented by a lack of localisation of non-central sources.
Yet it is close to a system of much higher fidelity if the direct-to-listener paths had been optimised. Instead I suspect they were ignored in the hope of sitting in a "null" produced by loudspeakers with rapidly decreasing directivity.
Much better IMHO would be to produce a similar loudspeaker array that sought to maximise the reproduction of the recorded ambience with the most precise localisation feasible instead of relying on effects that smear the recorded information. The way to do that is described in the thread above.
It is decades old, just recast in misunderstood theory in this thread. But IMHO it can deliver results beyond anything conventional stereo techniques achieve - albeit for one person in the hot seat. I hope everybody tries!
For what it's worth, here's some nice info on various MS micing techniques. Some good info here. Just click on the link at the top that says "Mic University." I have no affiliation with this company.
DPA Microphones - High quality condenser microphones
Also, PAiA makes a nice MS mic kit. I got one of these over a year ago, but haven't gotten around to building it yet. My bad.
PAiA - 9506K MS Stereo Mic Kit, Studio Series, 9506K
DPA Microphones - High quality condenser microphones
Also, PAiA makes a nice MS mic kit. I got one of these over a year ago, but haven't gotten around to building it yet. My bad.
PAiA - 9506K MS Stereo Mic Kit, Studio Series, 9506K
I'm glad someone at last mentioned Michael Gerzon.
Is this a British thing the fixation with MS, stuff the BBC absolutely love, but yields like Gerzon and his ambisonic, chronically inadequate results?
(This was particularly obvious with the infatuation with the calrec based SF mic)
It should not go in passing, one of Gerzon's favourite techniques, 2 nose to nose figure of 8s...
It gives the frequency response of omnis with the precise location of cardios when done right.
Maybe those going overboard trying to reinvent the wheel, should take some care to listen to BBC Radio 3, then listen to France Musique.
The output of both is highly variable, varying between extreme mediocre to absolutely outstanding.
Once you have a valid source, you can play with reproduction to your heart's content!
Not even I have ventured as far on here as to describe a recording as "valid"!
But I am glad someone else here recognizes the extraordinary contribution of Michael Gerzon. Even now there are aspects of his work, such as bispectral perceptual models for example, that still lack the recognition they deserve and would enlighten so many discussions on this forum.
As to inadequate results from MS, ambisonics or any A-format derivative... A recording engineer applies a degree of artistry in the microphone arrangements they choose - often for good reason, but often for no reason that I can fathom. For the most "valid" results, coincident techniques will always be superior - MS just happens to be one mathematically correct way of doing such (when engineered properly at least). But not all "MS" arrangements are the same and just simple room positioning often dictates whether the result is outstanding or otherwise.
As to a British obsession, possibly the "validity" of British loudspeaker "standards" from the BBC, Quad and ATC biassed us towards accurate reproduction of "valid" material simply because audible cues such as the temporal patterns that define depth and recording techniques such as MS that preserve them could be readily heard?
But MS microphone techniques are still an off-thread topic
But I am glad someone else here recognizes the extraordinary contribution of Michael Gerzon. Even now there are aspects of his work, such as bispectral perceptual models for example, that still lack the recognition they deserve and would enlighten so many discussions on this forum.
As to inadequate results from MS, ambisonics or any A-format derivative... A recording engineer applies a degree of artistry in the microphone arrangements they choose - often for good reason, but often for no reason that I can fathom. For the most "valid" results, coincident techniques will always be superior - MS just happens to be one mathematically correct way of doing such (when engineered properly at least). But not all "MS" arrangements are the same and just simple room positioning often dictates whether the result is outstanding or otherwise.
As to a British obsession, possibly the "validity" of British loudspeaker "standards" from the BBC, Quad and ATC biassed us towards accurate reproduction of "valid" material simply because audible cues such as the temporal patterns that define depth and recording techniques such as MS that preserve them could be readily heard?
But MS microphone techniques are still an off-thread topic
I lived close to Oxford for years, but never met Gerzon, I would have been too young.
A highly controversial genius who made friends and enemies, maybe he was his own enemy?
He certainly thought the BBC behaved similarly badly to today.**
Being one of them, I can sympathise on this take on (UBER) working, often in a very hostile environment.
Living, snaking around between the cables, stress caused by PR pushing artists, festival megalomaniacs and power crazed conductors, and long hours...getting up at the crack of dawn, travelling large distances...etc
Maybe more below?*
Maybe?
Bearing in mind that Peter Walker's quad ESL was copied from Jantzen's creation in the USA... mostly "badly".
The end result is a speaker largely incapable of reproducing bass, (where most of the energy happens to reside), and with a rather strange stereo imaging.
If you realise most of the studios were using ESLs, while the BBC finally decided to make their own stuff, still being replicated by people like Harbeth....
Is that "the British sound"?
Who knows?
Oh well, one can go on for hours about what might have been, especially if there wasn't a compulsory levy from the BS Broadcasting co**....
*As for the objective choice of techniques, Prof Schneider, describes it roughly this way:-
All down to decisions:-
Few come up with it as clearly as this.
"Choose if you want to record the acoustic, with the musicians in it",
or
"record the musicians with the acoustic of the hall round them",
then
choose whether in the end you have to use convolution techniques or not, and y/n if you want to get the stability inherent on speakers by using transaural rejection, and finally with multiple arrays...get the time spacing coherent re: distance in m/s.
My extra take on all that with surround sound, is:- "ARE YOU THERE" or "ARE THEY HERE".
If you got to the bottom of all that pile, you might possibly end up with a decent recording.
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Well if you are accustomed to the "QUAD ESL Experience", you would know they radiate from both sides, so you get rear reflections in the room.
Then you have the somewhat "mental" impedance behaviour which ranges from "NOT A LOT" to a virtual short circuit at HF....
Then there is the question of the orientation of the panels themselves where the (original) high range and low ranges were spaced like this
PLUS
Actually**:- for lots of reasons.
The best way to run them is stacked (the early ones) in pairs one above the other, which of course doubles the price and the PSU requirements,- and of course the maintenance!
Basically if you are used to a classic listening spot you can forget that with QUAD ESL, they don't work like that.
Here's the rest of the speel for what it's worth..quite a lot of truth in there.
British audio is a lot like old British cars.
If there's no oil on the floor, it's likely there's no oil in there at all....
Then you have the somewhat "mental" impedance behaviour which ranges from "NOT A LOT" to a virtual short circuit at HF....
Then there is the question of the orientation of the panels themselves where the (original) high range and low ranges were spaced like this
.
PLUS
..and anyway, anyone who wants some balanced FR has to find some bass cabinets to handle the bass bit, or they sound thin.
Actually**:- for lots of reasons.
The best way to run them is stacked (the early ones) in pairs one above the other, which of course doubles the price and the PSU requirements,- and of course the maintenance!
Basically if you are used to a classic listening spot you can forget that with QUAD ESL, they don't work like that.
Here's the rest of the speel for what it's worth..quite a lot of truth in there.
OT as usual but nevertheless fascinating, and really rather different with the later ESL63
Welcome to read the rest here
British audio is a lot like old British cars.
If there's no oil on the floor, it's likely there's no oil in there at all....
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I was lucky enough to have met him and also got to sit in on several conversations he had with Peter Walker and Peter Baxandall. I still have two unpublished papers with his hand written "confidential" notes scrawled over them. They remain well kept.
That is a fantastic quote to be remembered!
Oddly maybe? But whether by chance or otherwise, the speaker array form that is the subject of this thread (intentionally or not) provides the best means of minimising the compromises in that selection and as well as ameliorating the deficiencies in conventional reproduction eluded to previously.
I reckon Prof Schneider had quite a bit in common with Gerzon, except in France they end up in CNRS..which he described as a long term system to put people away in cupboards, so those with the power over decisions could shut them up, and never listen to what common sense they spouted.
Those who are familiar with Roque d'Anteron piano festival would be familiar with the world leading work in natural open air concert acoustics with ZERO sound reinforcement.
I have a lot of respect for the French, with their IRCAM, and then you have Bologna with Angelo Farina and all the others....
bet you didn't know?
(Founded in 1088, University of Bologna is the world's oldest continuously operating university, and one of the leading academic institutions in Europe.)
Oh well...small world and all that.
Those who are familiar with Roque d'Anteron piano festival would be familiar with the world leading work in natural open air concert acoustics with ZERO sound reinforcement.
I have a lot of respect for the French, with their IRCAM, and then you have Bologna with Angelo Farina and all the others....
bet you didn't know?
(Founded in 1088, University of Bologna is the world's oldest continuously operating university, and one of the leading academic institutions in Europe.)
Oh well...small world and all that.
Thanks for your reply 6vheater, I enjoyed that. I haven't had the 'experience' as might be obvious by now, haha. Those speakers must do the trick they do extremely well for them to be so well known. I will read the rest of it later today. So far the picture of how it could possibly sound, inspired by your text, that has been created in my imagination I could describe as: "headphones from a distance" but that may change once I read the rest of the text.
About the multiple arrays, I might add to soundbloke, suggesting 'the other way' of reproducing M/S by 3 monopole speakers. Two at the sides of LP facing listeners ears and the center in front, at equal distance to LP as the other two logically.
About the multiple arrays, I might add to soundbloke, suggesting 'the other way' of reproducing M/S by 3 monopole speakers. Two at the sides of LP facing listeners ears and the center in front, at equal distance to LP as the other two logically.
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