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Multi-Way Conventional loudspeakers with crossovers

Ceramic 4-way 1st ORDER (bang for the buck)
Ceramic 4-way 1st ORDER (bang for the buck)
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Old 24th February 2019, 06:40 PM   #51
ggetzoff is offline ggetzoff  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jerome69 View Post
Hi,
Think acoustic slope instead crossover order.
Have fun
Yes, achieve the slope and summation you want, you need to get away from the idea of a specific electrical number of poles in your design.

I let the drivers tell me where they want to be crossed over and I use assymetry all the time in my designs. I never impose or force anything on the design. You have to be flexible.
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Old 25th February 2019, 09:32 AM   #52
MasterSplinterJG54 is online now MasterSplinterJG54
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Default PROGRESS!!

The weekend was productive Fellaz! I have revamped the system, I will make a post here with all the info and I will EDIT the main post after, to be able to link the models.

I have mapped all the drivers seperately, and then have combined them into a TRUE 1st order electrical 4-way response graph.

The reasons behind this is that I realised the crossover points between the drivers must be -6db to have a flat response, therefore I have made assymetric crossovers to make sure Im as flat as possible.

The tweeter is already modelled with the series LCR notch in parrallel to the driver, but I havent added the effect of the Zobel impedence equalization networks which are in parallel to the cone drivers.
Thier job is to make sure that the higher frequency zones after the low-pass points to the cone drivers are rolling off at least as intended, if not quicker (meaning 9/db octave instead of 6db/octave). This will even out the bumped kinks you see on the red midwoofer graph, and the black midrange graph past thier low pass points.

Here are the crossovers:

1). 1" TWEETER
39$ SB26CDC-4 3.4 OHM

1st order high pass CROSSOVER VALUES (7200hz -0, 5400hz -3db, -3800hz -6db)
C1 = 8.66 uF

5.5$ KZK WHITE LINE MKP CAPACITOR (WILL USE 8.2uF)
0.5$ KZK K78-34 BYPASS CAPACITOR (WILL USE 0.02uf)

SERIES NOTCH FILTER PARALLEL TO TWEETER (inductor resistance value has been subtracted from resistor value)
C = 33.93 uF
L = 1.57 mH (0.375 OHM)
Rc = 5.69 Ohms (INDUCTOR RESISTANCE INCLUDED)

2). 3" MIDRANGE
39$ RF-30QY-PRO 7.4 OHM

1st order high/low pass CROSSOVER VALUES: (450hz -6db, 675hz -3db, 900hz -0db / 1800hz -0db, 2700hz -3db, 3600hz -6db)
C1 = 33.65 uF
L1 = 0.44 mH

13$ KZK WHITE LINE MKP CAPACITOR (WILL USE 33uF)
0.5$ KZK K78-34 BYPASS CAPACITOR (WILL USE 0.02uF)
8$ VAJD AUDIO 0,19 Ohm 1,6 mm AIRCORE COPPER INDUCTOR (WILL USE 0,44 mH)

INDEPENDENCE EQUALIZATION ZOBEL CIRCUIT:
C = 11.8 uF
Rc = 9.25 Ohms

3). 6" MIDWOOFER
44$ STX 180.8 FCX v2 6.2OHM

1st order low pass CROSSOVER VALUES: (337hz -0db, 450hz -3db, -675hz -6db)
L1 = 2.19 mH

16$ Z52-2,2/1,5 TOROIDAL IRON POWDER INDUCTOR 0,11 ohm (WILL USE 2.2mH)

INDEPENDENCE EQUALIZATION ZOBEL CIRCUIT:
C = 4.05 uF
Rc = 8.75 Ohms

4). 10" WOOFER
82$ STX W.27.500.8 FCX 5.9OHM

1st order low pass CROSSOVER VALUES: (66hz -0db, 100hz -3db, -133hz -6db)
L1 = 9.39 mH

20$ Z52-9,1/1,5 TOROIDAL IRON POWDER INDUCTOR 0,22 ohm (WILL USE 9.1mH)

INDEPENDENCE EQUALIZATION ZOBEL CIRCUIT:
C = 25.19 uF
Rc = 7.38 Ohms

(NOTE: the midrange GREEN plot is for 4 ohm unit, I've subtracted 2.75db)
(COSTS: tweeter setup- 90$ / PAIR CROSSED, midrange setup - 121$ / PAIR CROSSED, midwoofer setup - 120$ / PAIR CROSSED, woofer setup - 204$ / PAIR CROSSED)
TOTAL: 535$ + zobels, using JANTZEN SUPERES.
If I wont have enought money, I will build cabinets but I'll leave the woofers out for some time. I'll loose only the lowest octave.

Last edited by MasterSplinterJG54; 25th February 2019 at 09:40 AM.
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Old 25th February 2019, 10:04 AM   #53
MasterSplinterJG54 is online now MasterSplinterJG54
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Those of you who love modding and improving things, what's your take? (budget minded please)

Superior-Z or Alumen-Z for tweeter?
HYPEX FUSION 3 WAY AMP and RUN THE MID-TWEETER SECTION ON THE TWEETER CHANNEL?
FA123 OR FA253?
MCA15RCY for Midrange?
4 OHM woofer for less inductor? I didn't plot the impedence yet... being 4-way im already on the limit.
Dual Passive radiators on the woofer for sharper bass, better sound quality and smaller enclosure, like Troels ATELL-3, all while leaving the midwoofer ported for power handling?

How could I have forgotten - ANARCHY MIDWOOFER IN 8 OHMS!! YES

Last edited by MasterSplinterJG54; 25th February 2019 at 10:34 AM.
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Old 25th February 2019, 10:42 AM   #54
MasterSplinterJG54 is online now MasterSplinterJG54
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The Anarchy 708 has really low sensitivity.. what a bummer.
Test Bench: Exodus Audio W06-017R “Anarchy” | audioXpress

One could use 2 of them in parallel thought, WTMW configuration, most likely removing the need to the larger 10" woofer, well almost. Im going to model this, for my archive, really good idea and it will make the speaker 3 times as small!!

That would also make all the radiating surfaces aluminium, with closer sonic signiture. The cost also wouldn't increase. (Basically a much diffirent format, almost desktop, with similair properties!!)

Did I tell you I'm gonna print a 4" waveguide for the tweeter to get more out of them, and more importantly align the voice coils on the face plate?

Last edited by MasterSplinterJG54; 25th February 2019 at 10:54 AM.
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Old 25th February 2019, 10:52 AM   #55
MasterSplinterJG54 is online now MasterSplinterJG54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterSplinterJG54 View Post
Those of you who love modding and improving things, what's your take? (budget minded please)

Superior-Z or Alumen-Z for tweeter?
HYPEX FUSION 3 WAY AMP and RUN THE MID-TWEETER SECTION ON THE TWEETER CHANNEL?
FA123 OR FA253?
MCA15RCY for Midrange?
4 OHM woofer for less inductor? I didn't plot the impedence yet... being 4-way im already on the limit.
Dual Passive radiators on the woofer for sharper bass, better sound quality and smaller enclosure, like Troels ATELL-3, all while leaving the midwoofer ported for power handling?

How could I have forgotten - ANARCHY MIDWOOFER IN 8 OHMS!! YES
H1262-08 MCA15RCY

Hypex Electronics B.V.
Hypex Electronics B.V.

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Old 25th February 2019, 11:13 AM   #56
MasterSplinterJG54 is online now MasterSplinterJG54
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8" SB20PFC30-8 :: SB Acoustics
ACTUALLY, A PAIR of these in parallel per channel still looks tempting instead of the 10"woofer + 6" midwoofer combo. And CHEAPER. AND BETTER THAN ANARCHY. (82+44 = 126$ for bass setup above, 66 + 66 = 132$ for dual anarchy, 23 + 23 = 46$ for dual SB20PFC !!!!!)

I'll be back with a graph shortly, based on these measurements:
SB Acoustics SB20PFC30-8 | HiFiCompass

I Will be adding 5.5db to this data (+2.75db from impedance going from 8 ohm to 4 ohm, and +2.75db from double radiating area and voice coils)
you can see the response of two drivers in parallel from switching the input signal from 2.83V to 5.6V on HIFI-COMPASS menu in the AXIAL MAGNITUDE FREQUENCY RESPONSE graph posted.

Im gonna model them to be 86-87 db @ 450hz using first order electrical low-pass.
With this pair doing around 93db without attenuation, the math is easy: -6db down @ 450hz, giving me -3db down @ 337hz and -0db down @ 225hz.
0db down @ 225hz is 95db, so thats way too much. Doesnt work.

calculations v2: -9db @ 450hz, -6db @ 337hz, -3db @ 250hz, -0db @ 168hz. Still 95db loud.

two SB20PFC-8 in parrallel wont work, two sb20PFC-4 in series is a waste, so that leaves us with ONE SB20PFC-4
EVEN SIMPLER, CHEAPER, AND EASIER TO BUILD.

SB Acoustics SB20PFC30-4 | HiFiCompass

using 2.83V this time around.
without too much math, this gives: -0db@300, -3db@450hz, -6db@600hz

Inductor L1 = 1.63 mH will give me this crossover on the SB20PFC-4.

Last edited by MasterSplinterJG54; 25th February 2019 at 11:40 AM.
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Old 25th February 2019, 11:49 AM   #57
MasterSplinterJG54 is online now MasterSplinterJG54
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USING THIS SLOPE THE MIDBASS WILL BE CROSSED 3 (THREE) OCTAVES below its APPARENT breakup resonance, and 2.5 (TWO AND A HALF) OCTAVES below its beaming point, in theoritcal-mathematical terms.

OVERALL, this is simpler and more cost effective solution, converting my 4-way to 3-way and lowering amplification demand.

NEGATIVES:
1). LESS BASS
2). MUCH LESS POWER HANDLING (altough i was gonna run the 4-way midbass without high-pass filter, so who knows)
3). The Sb20PFC-4 response rises 3-3.5db between 900 and 1300 hz, making this area acoustically flat with a 1st order electrical. (THIS IS NO PROBLEM, this area IS most important frequency range, and flat is not your enemy, especially having the midrange playing just as flat in this frequency zone. I see this as a successfull model)

NOW I can see how double ANARCHY was able to work in the models, because its 8-10db less sensitive in the low end than the SB20PFC, and has a rising response.

THIS TYPE OF 3 WAY SYSTEM COSTS (WITHOUT CABINETS): 281$
For the masses that HATE CHINA, this allows $ me to upgrade midrange to MCA15RCY, if that RF-30QY-PRO unit doesn't live up to expectations.

Last edited by MasterSplinterJG54; 25th February 2019 at 12:00 PM.
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Old 25th February 2019, 11:55 AM   #58
denibeni is offline denibeni
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Funny thread with funny development. I'm curious what's coming out of it.
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Old 25th February 2019, 12:09 PM   #59
MasterSplinterJG54 is online now MasterSplinterJG54
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So here's a solution to CUT the COSTS, SIZE, AND COMPLEXITY by a FACTOR OF 2:
TO DITCH THE POLISH WOOFER + MIDWOOFER COMBO IN FAVOUR OF:

216cm2 SB20PFC30-4 (3.4-4.6 OHM)
1st order low pass CROSSOVER VALUES: (-0db@300hz, -3db@450hz, -6db@600hz)
Inductor L1 = 1.63 mH will give me this crossover on the SB20PFC-4.

Vajd Audio 1.6 mH* 0.39 Оhm* 1.4 mm COPPER AIRCORE INDUCTOR COIL 12$

INDEPENDENCE CORRECTION ZOBEL: TUNED TO 4.7OHM
C = 20.57 uF
Rc = 5.88 Ohms

Im plotting this out.. give me a sec..

Last edited by MasterSplinterJG54; 25th February 2019 at 12:12 PM.
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Old 25th February 2019, 12:48 PM   #60
MasterSplinterJG54 is online now MasterSplinterJG54
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HERE IS THE PLOT FOR THE 1ST ORDER ELECTRICAL 3 WAY

SB20PFC30-4 + RF30-QY-PRO-8 + SB26CDC-4

All three drivers playing the most critical 900-1300hz zone FLAT (AN IN TUNE WITH SYSTEM SENSITIVITY). Daddy Troels G would be proud.
FINALLY IM GETTING RETURNS on my investment of time!!

Here are the crossovers:

TWEETER:
C1 = 8.66 uF + BYPASS
SERIES NOTCH PARALLEL TO TW:
C2 = 33.93 uF
L = 1.57 mH (~0.375 OHM)
R = 5.69 Ohms

MIDRANGE:
C1 = 33.65 uF + BYPASS
L1 = 0.44 mH

MIDWOOFER:
L1 = 1.63 mH

For those of you who cant get KZK WHITELINE / K78-34 capacitors, I would do JANTZEN ALUMEN-Z or SUPERIOR-Z on the tweeter, CLARITY CSA or MUNDORF EVO OIL everywhere else (ZOBELS INCLUDED). For midrange inductors, JANTZEN FOIL-WAX, MUNDORF FOIL OR GOERTZ FOIL. For Midwoofer inductor, 14-15AWG aircore will fit the bill.

ZOBEL IMPEDANCE EQUALISATION RECOMMENDED
FOR MIDRANGE:C = 11.8 uF, Rc = 9.25 Ohms
FOR MIDWOOFER:C = 20.57 uF, Rc = 5.88 Ohms

Alternative midrange (with minor tweaks) as I see it: SEAS MCA15RCY (H1262-08)
Attached Images
File Type: png SB20PFC-4.png (485.9 KB, 104 views)

Last edited by MasterSplinterJG54; 25th February 2019 at 01:08 PM.
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