Depends on what you cross them over to.
If you use a bare dome tweeter the result will always be sub-optimal but once you add a waveguide or horn into the mix everything cleans up nicely albeit at the cost of some (cut) eq'ing.
Also I quite like 90deg dispersion at home which makes some choices for me.
Like the ideal crossover point since cones beam at 90deg when wavelength equals diameter.
All you need to do then is pick a mid that extents an octave beyond that cleanly and there is little left to go wrong with regards to driver choice.
If you use a bare dome tweeter the result will always be sub-optimal but once you add a waveguide or horn into the mix everything cleans up nicely albeit at the cost of some (cut) eq'ing.
Also I quite like 90deg dispersion at home which makes some choices for me.
Like the ideal crossover point since cones beam at 90deg when wavelength equals diameter.
All you need to do then is pick a mid that extents an octave beyond that cleanly and there is little left to go wrong with regards to driver choice.
Adason, Do you like big mids for there dynamics, or do they have better abilities to match with bigger woofers dispersion wise?
Iwas thinking around 6" midrange FP sells one that pretty inexpensive like 130$ or so and good sensitivity as well. I would think a 6" would help free up the selection of for the CD. Just a thought though still far from sure what I'll do in terms of going 3 or 2 way.
Even though I like the idea of a single point for the sound to radiate from I do know however Ill probably stay away from fullrange drivers, just not my thing.
Iwas thinking around 6" midrange FP sells one that pretty inexpensive like 130$ or so and good sensitivity as well. I would think a 6" would help free up the selection of for the CD. Just a thought though still far from sure what I'll do in terms of going 3 or 2 way.
Even though I like the idea of a single point for the sound to radiate from I do know however Ill probably stay away from fullrange drivers, just not my thing.
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It does not matter what you end up choosing. It will be a form of compromise anyway.
Double 6.5" crossed over to a CD+horn allows maybe 1.8-2.6khz xo freq, the main advantage to this may be that the compression drivers and the horns are cheaper compared to the quality you're getting. Adason likes the Faital 6FE200, and I do like those too. Then you got something that can be comfortably crossed over at 100-200hz somewhere, To a nice double 12", maybe 15" or 18". But that is a 3way... A CD+horn combo that can be comfortable crossed over at 0.8-1.2khz to a single 15" is often a bit pricey, but well worth it.
But then you have to start learning a lot about filters, unless you go for a kit of some sort. Not to mention the cost of addittional components if you go passive and decide to start tweaking. As people here have mentioned previously, better to go the DSP route.
It can be as cheap as "free" if you got a computer with a decent soundcard, or get a reasonably priced minidsp, or freedsp or whatever for a standalone solution. Have to get some amps though, but that's ridiculously cheap now.
Have you really looked long and hard at the kits from diysoundgroup?
Something like the Elusive 1099, or maybe the Titan 615 seems like it could be something for you. All the difficult stuff is done, just assembly of cabinets and stuff left.
If you're really certain you want to plan, design and make something on your own, then spending more time and learning might be beneficial. Start browsing drivers and planning xo frequencies, look at charts, polar diagrams, analyze breakup modes. Maybe just get something cheap first to play around with to figure it all out, it does pay off in the long run, and can be a very rewarding experience. I know this is the multi way forum and all, but I went from a 4way setup to a 2way, not missing anything. Something like the Beyma 12BR70 in a 60liter sealed box together with for instance the Tang Band W5-1611 in a sealed-off compartment in the same box, really does go a long way, you can even go insane and do the 1st order passive xo route, which is frowned upon by many, but can sound really sweet when you get it right.
I found out after a lot of multi way iterations, to get the xo freq low enough, better/easier/cheaper to go with a FR/wideband+bass combo. But experiencing things by yourself will have a tremendous value no matter what you decide.
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Just want to mention that prejudice towards some solutions might come back to bite you at a later point in time. I know it's easy to stamp a whole pile of options as useless when just giving it a glance, but are you really certain it's not the "nothatisanunknownsolutiontomeiamscepticalofthingsslightlyoutofmycomfortzone" monster talking?
Double 6.5" crossed over to a CD+horn allows maybe 1.8-2.6khz xo freq, the main advantage to this may be that the compression drivers and the horns are cheaper compared to the quality you're getting. Adason likes the Faital 6FE200, and I do like those too. Then you got something that can be comfortably crossed over at 100-200hz somewhere, To a nice double 12", maybe 15" or 18". But that is a 3way... A CD+horn combo that can be comfortable crossed over at 0.8-1.2khz to a single 15" is often a bit pricey, but well worth it.
But then you have to start learning a lot about filters, unless you go for a kit of some sort. Not to mention the cost of addittional components if you go passive and decide to start tweaking. As people here have mentioned previously, better to go the DSP route.
It can be as cheap as "free" if you got a computer with a decent soundcard, or get a reasonably priced minidsp, or freedsp or whatever for a standalone solution. Have to get some amps though, but that's ridiculously cheap now.
Have you really looked long and hard at the kits from diysoundgroup?
Something like the Elusive 1099, or maybe the Titan 615 seems like it could be something for you. All the difficult stuff is done, just assembly of cabinets and stuff left.
If you're really certain you want to plan, design and make something on your own, then spending more time and learning might be beneficial. Start browsing drivers and planning xo frequencies, look at charts, polar diagrams, analyze breakup modes. Maybe just get something cheap first to play around with to figure it all out, it does pay off in the long run, and can be a very rewarding experience. I know this is the multi way forum and all, but I went from a 4way setup to a 2way, not missing anything. Something like the Beyma 12BR70 in a 60liter sealed box together with for instance the Tang Band W5-1611 in a sealed-off compartment in the same box, really does go a long way, you can even go insane and do the 1st order passive xo route, which is frowned upon by many, but can sound really sweet when you get it right.
I found out after a lot of multi way iterations, to get the xo freq low enough, better/easier/cheaper to go with a FR/wideband+bass combo. But experiencing things by yourself will have a tremendous value no matter what you decide.
Edit:
Just want to mention that prejudice towards some solutions might come back to bite you at a later point in time. I know it's easy to stamp a whole pile of options as useless when just giving it a glance, but are you really certain it's not the "nothatisanunknownsolutiontomeiamscepticalofthingsslightlyoutofmycomfortzone" monster talking?
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I agree, but it's a compromise. The designs are good in other areas, and many of them are intended to be crossed over higher to a sub. Something like the "magnum" is maybe slightly better, but all of these boxes are small, and require narrow ports to get a feeling of low end response. There used to be a Seos build with a 15" Selenium in a sealed cabinet, but it never gained traction, to me that seemed far superior to all the sub-optimal BR designs, but people are maybe looking at the wrong numbers. BR can be really good (like everything else also can also be really good), but it takes more time and effort than most are willing to invest.
+1 plus off axis response; you need to crossöver that 15" really low and need a really expensive tweeter to do the rest. Bad idea.
3 way; sub and 2 way 10/1 tops or just 15/6/1" tops are more favorable in almost all situations.
IMHO 2 way 15" + tweeters speakers only exits because of marketing and nescient people buying them because of the specs.
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Hi Recently refurbed a pair of Altec lansing enclosures. They are 2 way just over 7 cubic foot vented ones. I used the 15 inch Greap Plains Audio 416-8 (alnico version) with a Radian 475PB driver on a Seos 15 inch wave guide. Passive second order crossover at 1650HZ. Padded down on the Radian about 12 db. The combination is about 96 db/w sensitivity and really nice sounding. The GPA is an exceptional woofer wit very flat response from 30-3K. I actually measured it flat to 4500. The enclosures are a variation for home use based on the Voice of the Theater systems. Great sound, able to do bot high and low power well. Beware the GPAs are not cheap.
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BobtheBuilderMLG,
I see you picked the Faital 15FH530 woofer. It seems to have a good response both on and off-axis. Are you still considering a 2-way? If so, what kind of HF scheme do you want to go for, constant-directivity or a horn?
I think that in any case, ~1kHz might be just about the highest you want to cross that woofer at. I don't know if there are any commonly available ~15" constant-directivity waveguides that really can pull-off 1kHz. The SEOS-15 claims 900Hz. Googling its polar data, it seems like 1kHz would really be the lowest you want to go, perhaps it could work. Too bad the QSC and its clones are no longer available. I have a QSC and am using it down to 1250Hz.
If you want a horn, I'd suggest Tractrix, in which case you could and should IMO cross lower, perhaps 800Hz or so, in order not to have the woofer's pattern narrow too much before hitting the horn's wide pattern in its lower bandwidth.
I simulated the 15FH530 in WinISD. I like 73L @ 44Hz for a compact solution. f3 is ~50Hz and f10 is 35Hz. Room gain will prop up these figures. A larger and lower-reaching solution could be a 3dB bass shelft, which would be 165L @ 33Hz. The -3dB (f3) shelf would "hold" to ~36Hz and f10 would be ~26Hz, albeit with a steep slope and you'd lose some "punch" from 50Hz-200Hz compared to the previous QB3 solution. Of course, you can correct this almost any way you want with DSP, as long as you have the amplifier power to back it up. With its generous 9.25mm Xmax, this driver will play stupid loud in any configuration in a domestic setting. Even sealed would be an option, with f3~83Hz at Qtc~0.7 in a very compact 42L box. You could run a Linkwitz transform to have any f3/f10 you want, once again, if you have the amplifier power for it and can afford the reduction in max SPL.
I see you picked the Faital 15FH530 woofer. It seems to have a good response both on and off-axis. Are you still considering a 2-way? If so, what kind of HF scheme do you want to go for, constant-directivity or a horn?
I think that in any case, ~1kHz might be just about the highest you want to cross that woofer at. I don't know if there are any commonly available ~15" constant-directivity waveguides that really can pull-off 1kHz. The SEOS-15 claims 900Hz. Googling its polar data, it seems like 1kHz would really be the lowest you want to go, perhaps it could work. Too bad the QSC and its clones are no longer available. I have a QSC and am using it down to 1250Hz.
If you want a horn, I'd suggest Tractrix, in which case you could and should IMO cross lower, perhaps 800Hz or so, in order not to have the woofer's pattern narrow too much before hitting the horn's wide pattern in its lower bandwidth.
I simulated the 15FH530 in WinISD. I like 73L @ 44Hz for a compact solution. f3 is ~50Hz and f10 is 35Hz. Room gain will prop up these figures. A larger and lower-reaching solution could be a 3dB bass shelft, which would be 165L @ 33Hz. The -3dB (f3) shelf would "hold" to ~36Hz and f10 would be ~26Hz, albeit with a steep slope and you'd lose some "punch" from 50Hz-200Hz compared to the previous QB3 solution. Of course, you can correct this almost any way you want with DSP, as long as you have the amplifier power to back it up. With its generous 9.25mm Xmax, this driver will play stupid loud in any configuration in a domestic setting. Even sealed would be an option, with f3~83Hz at Qtc~0.7 in a very compact 42L box. You could run a Linkwitz transform to have any f3/f10 you want, once again, if you have the amplifier power for it and can afford the reduction in max SPL.
I would be looking for low end extension in a vented box. I got something different in Bassbox pro ill post when I get home, I probably did something wrong. If I can find a horn and good CD for a 2 way Id like to do that but if It seems to difficult Ill just go 3 way. As for the horn or waveguide Im not sure yet although I have heard great things about the tractrix horns you mentioned. A CD and then a super tweeter CD is also an option.
Theres a lot of multicell EVs on Ebay, that might work? Not sure yet what they are or there function Ill do some googling when I can just remembered they were mentioned alot. From what im gathering the pattern aka dispersion is important to match at the crossover frequancy correct? Does one see that by looking at the polar response? Also what do you prefer Constant or horn?
Yes this is a home environment, in a living room about 30' x 20' which is a guess. If this is a facepalm post then excuse my ignorance.
Theres a lot of multicell EVs on Ebay, that might work? Not sure yet what they are or there function Ill do some googling when I can just remembered they were mentioned alot. From what im gathering the pattern aka dispersion is important to match at the crossover frequancy correct? Does one see that by looking at the polar response? Also what do you prefer Constant or horn?
Yes this is a home environment, in a living room about 30' x 20' which is a guess. If this is a facepalm post then excuse my ignorance.
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Do not know if you're interested, but just ran the Faital 15HF530 through hornresp, simulates very well in the boxes I am currently using, it's a drop-in replacement for my current drivers, sligthly better power response on paper, but also slightly worse group delay.
If you feed it 280watts of power (38 volts, quite a lot!) you get 21msec particle velocity on the port at 27hz, run a 4th order HP at 20hz to ensure it does not go over 24msec at 24 hz (just below tuning). You will still reach 113db at 28hz, more if you believe in "room gain". I'll say that most likely you can just forget the filter, and get in-room response to at probably 20hz or lower, but sound will be strong and good from 25hz up.
I will suggest not skimping on a CD with a good driver like the Faital 15HF530, splurge and get at least the Radian 475PB + a suitable horn, maybe something not far away from Faital LTH102? Lowest adviseable xo on the Radian is 800hz even though it's only a 1" unit, I have used it as low as 850hz, and it did very good, but it's better to go up to 900-950hz if you can, and 24db/oct or steeper filters.
If you feed it 280watts of power (38 volts, quite a lot!) you get 21msec particle velocity on the port at 27hz, run a 4th order HP at 20hz to ensure it does not go over 24msec at 24 hz (just below tuning). You will still reach 113db at 28hz, more if you believe in "room gain". I'll say that most likely you can just forget the filter, and get in-room response to at probably 20hz or lower, but sound will be strong and good from 25hz up.
I will suggest not skimping on a CD with a good driver like the Faital 15HF530, splurge and get at least the Radian 475PB + a suitable horn, maybe something not far away from Faital LTH102? Lowest adviseable xo on the Radian is 800hz even though it's only a 1" unit, I have used it as low as 850hz, and it did very good, but it's better to go up to 900-950hz if you can, and 24db/oct or steeper filters.
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For the price of the BMS 4550 and the Radian (the 2nd 1" I know now that goes low enough) you mention you can get a good 1.4" compression driver which dramatically increases the choice of horn flares with a low enough cut off point to cross to a 15" which should be 900Hz when using a 90deg horn.
Ideally you would want the horn cut off well below crossover point.
Remove marginalities you gain headroom which is essential for a dynamic sound IMO.
Ideally you would want the horn cut off well below crossover point.
Remove marginalities you gain headroom which is essential for a dynamic sound IMO.
May be a bit leftfield but have you considered something like this to go with your 15":
Eighteen Sound Coaxial Speakers - Eighteen Sound 8CX401F Coaxial Speaker - Eighteen Sound 8CX401F 8" coaxial speaker handles 280 watts AES. Eighteen Sound 8CX401F coaxial speakers are available here. 18 Sound coaxial speaker components.
Only costs $25 more than the Radian or BMS compression driver, less than either with horn and gives you the advantages of a 3way.
Come to think of it this would be my preferred option out of everything discussed so far but then I am partial to co-axials.
Eighteen Sound Coaxial Speakers - Eighteen Sound 8CX401F Coaxial Speaker - Eighteen Sound 8CX401F 8" coaxial speaker handles 280 watts AES. Eighteen Sound 8CX401F coaxial speakers are available here. 18 Sound coaxial speaker components.
Only costs $25 more than the Radian or BMS compression driver, less than either with horn and gives you the advantages of a 3way.
Come to think of it this would be my preferred option out of everything discussed so far but then I am partial to co-axials.
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I have been intrigued by the smaller pro coaxials for quite a while, but never went for it. I therefore can't recommend any first hand, but if I had to buy one today, it'd most likely be a B&C 8CX21. You basically get a 8PS21 midbass and a DE12 compression driver on the back. It supposedly has one of the smoothest horn-to-cone transition among comparable units. I'm sure B&C sells a ready-made crossover for it, perhaps details of it are available to clone it, or someone online must have designed one. That would leave the woofer to coax crossover to be handled by DSP.
Ill check out that Eminence.
So for the 15" I got a VB of 4.1 cubic feet, FB of 36hz and that gives me a F3 of 45hz. Not bad really. I see what your saying KaffiMann. Ill probably go with this size enclosure and play with the DSP a bit.
I don't think Ill go with a coaxial for this, partial because I have not had the chance to hear many and I'm thinking of making the enclosure like the JBL L300. Its a 6 cubic foot enclosure but I can easily make it to match my VB and add bracing and the horn ect.. to bring the VB down.
Yes I have decided the woofer will use a DSP. and may make the tweeter passive. the reasoning is I have used it on tweeters before but felt like the SQ was effected although I will experiment on that theory again before I just right it off, could have had my settings were off or placement ect... Thoughts and ideas on this reasoning?
A complete Faital build would be awesome I'm thinking the 140 as well and it claims it will go down to 900hz. These guys tested the polymer diaphragm version but I would assume the performance would be similar, and it measured very well. Test Bench: FaitalPRO HF142 Compression Driver Coupled with LTH142 60degx50deg Horn
Thanks to all for sharing!
So for the 15" I got a VB of 4.1 cubic feet, FB of 36hz and that gives me a F3 of 45hz. Not bad really. I see what your saying KaffiMann. Ill probably go with this size enclosure and play with the DSP a bit.
I don't think Ill go with a coaxial for this, partial because I have not had the chance to hear many and I'm thinking of making the enclosure like the JBL L300. Its a 6 cubic foot enclosure but I can easily make it to match my VB and add bracing and the horn ect.. to bring the VB down.
Yes I have decided the woofer will use a DSP. and may make the tweeter passive. the reasoning is I have used it on tweeters before but felt like the SQ was effected although I will experiment on that theory again before I just right it off, could have had my settings were off or placement ect... Thoughts and ideas on this reasoning?
A complete Faital build would be awesome I'm thinking the 140 as well and it claims it will go down to 900hz. These guys tested the polymer diaphragm version but I would assume the performance would be similar, and it measured very well. Test Bench: FaitalPRO HF142 Compression Driver Coupled with LTH142 60degx50deg Horn
Thanks to all for sharing!
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