Hi
I have a friend who lives on a small island between the Australian mainland and Tasmania, who wants to build some speakers. He lives in an old church hall, that is maybe 30m (100 feet) x 10m (30') and quite live (reflective).
He wants some speakers that can act as reasonably good quality hi-fi speakers, and that he can crank up for the occasional disco or film night that he holds at the hall.
His current amplification is a new Kenwood surround sound amp rated at 110 W into 6 ohms (yes - dodgy Kenwood numbers in action) into the front channels. I'm not sure what the surround channels can do.
Because of the limited amp power, he'll need something fairly efficient to get high SPL, and maybe we can add a powered sub later (Labhorn maybe...) to boost the bass and add more amplification.
Budget is probably around $750 US for pair of speakers.
He is a builder amongst other things, and so can handle cabinet work no problems, but doesn't know anything about electronics etc. I'd probably put the XO together for him.
I'm looking for either a kit or design that would be suitable. I'm not really in a position to be able to design passive crossovers on this one so I'm looking for something that's been worked out.
I was thinking of maybe an MTM with PHL drivers (available in Aus), but not many tweeters are available that have high enough sensitivity to match, apart from ribbons. Horn tweeters don't seem popular for Hi-fi. Don't they sound any good?
Any suggestions?
Mick
I have a friend who lives on a small island between the Australian mainland and Tasmania, who wants to build some speakers. He lives in an old church hall, that is maybe 30m (100 feet) x 10m (30') and quite live (reflective).
He wants some speakers that can act as reasonably good quality hi-fi speakers, and that he can crank up for the occasional disco or film night that he holds at the hall.
His current amplification is a new Kenwood surround sound amp rated at 110 W into 6 ohms (yes - dodgy Kenwood numbers in action) into the front channels. I'm not sure what the surround channels can do.
Because of the limited amp power, he'll need something fairly efficient to get high SPL, and maybe we can add a powered sub later (Labhorn maybe...) to boost the bass and add more amplification.
Budget is probably around $750 US for pair of speakers.
He is a builder amongst other things, and so can handle cabinet work no problems, but doesn't know anything about electronics etc. I'd probably put the XO together for him.
I'm looking for either a kit or design that would be suitable. I'm not really in a position to be able to design passive crossovers on this one so I'm looking for something that's been worked out.
I was thinking of maybe an MTM with PHL drivers (available in Aus), but not many tweeters are available that have high enough sensitivity to match, apart from ribbons. Horn tweeters don't seem popular for Hi-fi. Don't they sound any good?
Any suggestions?
Mick
High efficiency speaker kits
You should take a look at the adire audio (www.adireaudio.com) he12.1 and he10.1 kits, they are over 95db/w, easy loads and quite 'hifi' by all accounts. Personally I'm waiting for the he8.1, due out in the next couple of months, slightly lower sensitivity, but much smaller. If those don't work, try and find other kits that use eminence drivers, they are very efficient (>95db/w) and range in size from 8 to 18 inches.
Good luck
Stuart
You should take a look at the adire audio (www.adireaudio.com) he12.1 and he10.1 kits, they are over 95db/w, easy loads and quite 'hifi' by all accounts. Personally I'm waiting for the he8.1, due out in the next couple of months, slightly lower sensitivity, but much smaller. If those don't work, try and find other kits that use eminence drivers, they are very efficient (>95db/w) and range in size from 8 to 18 inches.
Good luck
Stuart
Check www.vaf.com.au and look up the DC-X speaker range.
Very high fidelity, very efficient, lots of clean deep bass.
Can get a kit with drivers and cabinets or just drivers. Xover is a single cap.
I use them, and I like them. I drive them with 120 real watts per side, and they can make a very big sound.
Based in Adelaide so shipping shouldn't be too scary.
Check them out.
Paul.
Very high fidelity, very efficient, lots of clean deep bass.
Can get a kit with drivers and cabinets or just drivers. Xover is a single cap.
I use them, and I like them. I drive them with 120 real watts per side, and they can make a very big sound.
Based in Adelaide so shipping shouldn't be too scary.
Check them out.
Paul.
Although they are not a kit, why not try to find some good used Klipsch Corwalls, La Scalas, or Belleklipschs?!
I gave my brother my pair of original Cornwalls along with a McIntosh MC250 amp that he now uses with just a cd player and it sounds pretty good. When I had the Cornwalls, (101dB @ 1 watt) and MC250, (50 watts per channel), I could crank out some serious SPL. If I remember correctly, I hit a max SPL of 126dB 15 feet down my hallway!! To top it all off, the little Mac amp barely even got warm after playing a whole cd that loud, (about 30 watts RMS), even though my ears rang for days.
It was way too loud to stay in the room and quite a bit louder than any night club I've ever been in, and I've been a bunch of them.
Just a thought.
I gave my brother my pair of original Cornwalls along with a McIntosh MC250 amp that he now uses with just a cd player and it sounds pretty good. When I had the Cornwalls, (101dB @ 1 watt) and MC250, (50 watts per channel), I could crank out some serious SPL. If I remember correctly, I hit a max SPL of 126dB 15 feet down my hallway!! To top it all off, the little Mac amp barely even got warm after playing a whole cd that loud, (about 30 watts RMS), even though my ears rang for days.
It was way too loud to stay in the room and quite a bit louder than any night club I've ever been in, and I've been a bunch of them.
Just a thought.
Thanks for the posts so far
Paul - the VAF DC-X was one I'd had a look at and looked good. What kind of tweeter does it use that has 93dB efficiency? Did you get the cabinets, and if so what did you think of them?
Stuart - Adires look good too. Shipping costs may be a problem, but they're not too expensive to start with so could be an option.
Chops - good idea re Klipsch horns. Unfortunately there wouldn't be many of these come up on the second hand market in Australia, so you could be waiting a looong time.
Mick
Paul - the VAF DC-X was one I'd had a look at and looked good. What kind of tweeter does it use that has 93dB efficiency? Did you get the cabinets, and if so what did you think of them?
Stuart - Adires look good too. Shipping costs may be a problem, but they're not too expensive to start with so could be an option.
Chops - good idea re Klipsch horns. Unfortunately there wouldn't be many of these come up on the second hand market in Australia, so you could be waiting a looong time.
Mick
Adire uses Eminence drivers for these. Maybe they would sell you the kit without the woofers, and you could buy the Eminence drivers locally. I suspect since Eminence would ship them by the containerload that their shipping costs will be lower and your local retail price would be a lot lower than paying shipping from the US
Kanga said:
Well, I dug out my manual. Tweeter is, to quote:
"25mm soft dome ferro-fluid damped shallow horn tweeter"
I did get the cabinets, and they are SOLID. Quite dead on the knuckle-rap test. Assembly was a no-brainer, but you do need a good soldering iron to achieve quick, solid joins. VAF can do spade lug connectors if requested.
My speakers were some of the first off the production line. VAF have upgraded the design since: different damping inside, and slightly different port, I think. With good source material, these speakers provide wonderful imaging, but the "sweet spot" is fairly narrow.
Which Island does your friend live on, if I may ask?
Paul.
Paul
I can do the soldering required for the speakers.
My friend is on Flinders island - beautiful place, and as yet still unspoilt. His sister and her husband were the first to move there from Melbourne, then my friend followed, and now the parents are moving over too!
There's even an American playwrite that lives on the island for about 6 months of the year.
One of the kind of nice things about living on such a small isolated island is that because of the lack of goods and services that you'd expect in a city, you have to do these things yourself. So because he has the hall he uses the space to put on films, hold dances etc.
Mick
I can do the soldering required for the speakers.
My friend is on Flinders island - beautiful place, and as yet still unspoilt. His sister and her husband were the first to move there from Melbourne, then my friend followed, and now the parents are moving over too!
There's even an American playwrite that lives on the island for about 6 months of the year.
One of the kind of nice things about living on such a small isolated island is that because of the lack of goods and services that you'd expect in a city, you have to do these things yourself. So because he has the hall he uses the space to put on films, hold dances etc.
Mick
Food for thought
You are setting parameters for two different situations that are quite different.
Audio - listening/HT is designed for soundstage and imaging and resolution.
However, when you add to the equation disco and film night in a room that is quite a bit larger than you find in an average residence, you are getting into _Pro_ sound. Pro sound equipment is designed more for SPL and dispersion rather than resolution.
And, you will find that people will soak up a surprising amount of sound - and will absorb the highs more readily than lows. So a system that is designed for home audio will become less and less able to keep up as more people enter the hall. You're not really going to cover 30' by 100' with 2 speakers if you've got a bunch of people in there - Probably need at least four maybe 6 depending on how many people - you could easily buy or build pro type speakers to meet this need - but I wouldn't really want to listen to my cd's on these all of the time.
I suggest that you approach this to have the best sound you can for which is most important - individual use or use with groups.
Then after satisfying the primary purpose, buy used or otherwise cheaper equipment to fill the secondary need.
Something you might want to think about.
Later
Ken L
You are setting parameters for two different situations that are quite different.
Audio - listening/HT is designed for soundstage and imaging and resolution.
However, when you add to the equation disco and film night in a room that is quite a bit larger than you find in an average residence, you are getting into _Pro_ sound. Pro sound equipment is designed more for SPL and dispersion rather than resolution.
And, you will find that people will soak up a surprising amount of sound - and will absorb the highs more readily than lows. So a system that is designed for home audio will become less and less able to keep up as more people enter the hall. You're not really going to cover 30' by 100' with 2 speakers if you've got a bunch of people in there - Probably need at least four maybe 6 depending on how many people - you could easily buy or build pro type speakers to meet this need - but I wouldn't really want to listen to my cd's on these all of the time.
I suggest that you approach this to have the best sound you can for which is most important - individual use or use with groups.
Then after satisfying the primary purpose, buy used or otherwise cheaper equipment to fill the secondary need.
Something you might want to think about.
Later
Ken L
Ken L - thanks for your thoughts. I don't think that my friend is a real audiophile like me, so we'll probably steer towards the good quality PA type speakers. I have loaned him my Boston Acoustics A60 speakers (60W), which will be put into service as rear speakers for surround sound, and to boost up the levels a bit for dance duty.
Dave - I looked into the Adire HE kits after Stuart's suggestion, and they seem to get a good rap. I kind of assumed that Eminence speakers and tweeter horns only sounded good to half-deaf PA sound guys, but if people who have 4W valve amps like them, then they must sound more than OK. I have sent an e-mail to Acoustic Concepts, who distribute Adire in Australia as to whether they can supply these kits. This may make it a viable option.
Pispeakers also seem to get a good rap, and are available in all sorts of combinations, with efficiencies up to about 100 dB/W/m.
Mick
Dave - I looked into the Adire HE kits after Stuart's suggestion, and they seem to get a good rap. I kind of assumed that Eminence speakers and tweeter horns only sounded good to half-deaf PA sound guys, but if people who have 4W valve amps like them, then they must sound more than OK. I have sent an e-mail to Acoustic Concepts, who distribute Adire in Australia as to whether they can supply these kits. This may make it a viable option.
Pispeakers also seem to get a good rap, and are available in all sorts of combinations, with efficiencies up to about 100 dB/W/m.
Mick
Hi Kanga,
In a room that large you are not going to get much if any room gain for the low end. Better plan on a sub, especially if he wants to do a Disco kind of thing.
Is the DIY thing to save money or is he really interested in making the speakers himself?
If it's just about cost I'd suggest your friend take a look at the Yamaha Club series speakers. The S115IV sells here new for less than $300 US each. Their rated efficiency is 99 dB at 1W/1M.
Here's a link to a US vendor. These are a very popular speakers, especially with bands starting out and are usually available quite inexpensively on the used market.
http://www.zzounds.com/item--YAMS115IV
If he is really into DIY here is a links page that leads to several PA speaker builders resources.
http://www.btinternet.com/~speakerplans/sp/page7.html
Phil
In a room that large you are not going to get much if any room gain for the low end. Better plan on a sub, especially if he wants to do a Disco kind of thing.
Is the DIY thing to save money or is he really interested in making the speakers himself?
If it's just about cost I'd suggest your friend take a look at the Yamaha Club series speakers. The S115IV sells here new for less than $300 US each. Their rated efficiency is 99 dB at 1W/1M.
Here's a link to a US vendor. These are a very popular speakers, especially with bands starting out and are usually available quite inexpensively on the used market.
http://www.zzounds.com/item--YAMS115IV
If he is really into DIY here is a links page that leads to several PA speaker builders resources.
http://www.btinternet.com/~speakerplans/sp/page7.html
Phil
Koinichiwa,
You may wish to look here:
http://thunderstoneaudio.nav.to/
and here:
Andrew Brandon's Afterburner Project
These will be affordable, can later be upgraded with suitable "classic" Drivers obtained from E-Bay (Goodmans Axiom 201, 301, 12" Lomo from Russia, EV SP12 to Naim a few).
Then build a few Dipole Subs with Eminence Kappa 18. A friend uses these (dual 18" Kappa per side) in a similarly large room, superb. The fact that dipoles and the Afterburners are fairly controlled dispersion also helps in large, not particulary well damped rooms.
Sayonara
Kanga said:
You may wish to look here:
http://thunderstoneaudio.nav.to/
and here:
Andrew Brandon's Afterburner Project
These will be affordable, can later be upgraded with suitable "classic" Drivers obtained from E-Bay (Goodmans Axiom 201, 301, 12" Lomo from Russia, EV SP12 to Naim a few).
Then build a few Dipole Subs with Eminence Kappa 18. A friend uses these (dual 18" Kappa per side) in a similarly large room, superb. The fact that dipoles and the Afterburners are fairly controlled dispersion also helps in large, not particulary well damped rooms.
Sayonara
Haldor
My friend just wants a good sounding set of speakers as cheap as possible. Because I'm helping him, I suppose I have an interest in checking out DIY designs/kits because that's my bent.
A sub would be good, but will probably have to be an upgrade at a later stage when more $ are available.
Would the Yamahas be "listenable" as hi-fi speakers?
Kuei Yang Wang - thanks for the suggestions on the afterburner. Another good one to consider.
I got a very quick e-mail back from the Adire distributor in Australia, and they can supply the HE12.1 for about AUD$720 per pair, so this has to be a good contender.
Mick
My friend just wants a good sounding set of speakers as cheap as possible. Because I'm helping him, I suppose I have an interest in checking out DIY designs/kits because that's my bent.
A sub would be good, but will probably have to be an upgrade at a later stage when more $ are available.
Would the Yamahas be "listenable" as hi-fi speakers?
Kuei Yang Wang - thanks for the suggestions on the afterburner. Another good one to consider.
I got a very quick e-mail back from the Adire distributor in Australia, and they can supply the HE12.1 for about AUD$720 per pair, so this has to be a good contender.
Mick
Hello Kanga. The Adire 10.1's are really some nice sounding speakers for the price. They just seem to get some things right that many audiophile speakers fall short at...namely, dynamics. As much as I like these little speakers...do I think they would fill a hall? No. Can they be a little harsh with SS...in my experience...yes.
If he wants some nice sounding speakers and ,at times, rock the house (or hall) with a good number of people...he may be better off building something like the Altec A-7's...with perhaps some EdgarHorn round horns on top driven by some JBL or Altec compression drivers...or someEminence drivers to save a little money.
I would agree that some pro gear seems to be made only for SpL and leaves much to be desired in overall sound quality. But, the best systems I have heard were DIY (or smaller manufacturers) systems that used pro drivers...The dynamic range and low distortion levels are like nothing else I have heard from "audiophile" speakers. 'Course...that's my opinion...and your may vary.
Have you heard the Labhorn sub? WOW...it is really something to hear/feel!
have fun...and take care>>>>>
If he wants some nice sounding speakers and ,at times, rock the house (or hall) with a good number of people...he may be better off building something like the Altec A-7's...with perhaps some EdgarHorn round horns on top driven by some JBL or Altec compression drivers...or someEminence drivers to save a little money.
I would agree that some pro gear seems to be made only for SpL and leaves much to be desired in overall sound quality. But, the best systems I have heard were DIY (or smaller manufacturers) systems that used pro drivers...The dynamic range and low distortion levels are like nothing else I have heard from "audiophile" speakers. 'Course...that's my opinion...and your may vary.
Have you heard the Labhorn sub? WOW...it is really something to hear/feel!
have fun...and take care>>>>>
Gonefishing - thanks for your comments on the HE10.1s. Why don't you think they would fill a large room? They should be able to handle plenty of power and have high efficiency. The only reason I could think of is that they may be too small. I don't know why, but small speakers do seem to have trouble filling large rooms, even if they can do it in theory.
I think large good commercial speakers would be a good choice, but its just a matter of how to find them, and how long you'd have to wait to pick some up second hand.
Labhorn would be great (although I've never heard one). Could start to get a bit expensive with 2 drivers required, and also quite a lot more time involved to build than a traditional square box. Same goes with Edgar horns.
Exhurbia - I'll e-mail you for details. Could be of interest.
Mick
I think large good commercial speakers would be a good choice, but its just a matter of how to find them, and how long you'd have to wait to pick some up second hand.
Labhorn would be great (although I've never heard one). Could start to get a bit expensive with 2 drivers required, and also quite a lot more time involved to build than a traditional square box. Same goes with Edgar horns.
Exhurbia - I'll e-mail you for details. Could be of interest.
Mick
"Budget is probably around $750 US for pair of speakers."
If the amp can handle 4ohm's go to a Jcar store/website and audition a set of JC80's(AA-0124 full kit=$939pr AUD)
better still buy the CS-2582 speakers/xovers/ports kit $589pr AUD and he can make the boxes himself.(They are new to Jcar the old model JV60's are still available for $889 complete or $569 parts)Ive heard these before are they are good.
With the $$$ change left over, grab a Adire shiva and a Jcar AA0508 amp make a box(and big he's got room for it...) and be happy!
If the amp can handle 4ohm's go to a Jcar store/website and audition a set of JC80's(AA-0124 full kit=$939pr AUD)
better still buy the CS-2582 speakers/xovers/ports kit $589pr AUD and he can make the boxes himself.(They are new to Jcar the old model JV60's are still available for $889 complete or $569 parts)Ive heard these before are they are good.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
With the $$$ change left over, grab a Adire shiva and a Jcar AA0508 amp make a box(and big he's got room for it...) and be happy!
- Status
- This old topic is closed. If you want to reopen this topic, contact a moderator using the "Report Post" button.