Hi there Kanga,
I deleted your email by mistake
, I can't remember
what you wanted to know except that the horns are huge and
they are usable from 450hz up the drivers are 2482 16r and
have new diaphragms which are 4" with 2"exit. rings are tweeters
4000 hz up efficiency is enormous around 112dB for 1w.
For the bottom end i would go for sealed subs with a processor
or bass horns as you have the room you can use straight horns
with the mouth pointing at the ground. use the walls of the hall
as the sides. It works brilliantly
I deleted your email by mistake
, I can't remember what you wanted to know except that the horns are huge and
they are usable from 450hz up the drivers are 2482 16r and
have new diaphragms which are 4" with 2"exit. rings are tweeters
4000 hz up efficiency is enormous around 112dB for 1w.
For the bottom end i would go for sealed subs with a processor
or bass horns as you have the room you can use straight horns
with the mouth pointing at the ground. use the walls of the hall
as the sides. It works brilliantly
Kanga said:
Volume displacement, ie, the amount of air that needs to be moved. To fill a large space to a decent SPL you need to move a lot of air, especially below 200Hz or so. The Adires are efficient, but they're based on one of the low end Eminence drivers and will break up when pushed and sound small in such a large space, even if you're only sitting a few feet away, similar to normal living room distances.
Remember too that simply adding the efficiency and power in dBW will not tell you <i>what</i> a speaker will sound like at a certain SPL, and how much it's distorting. Look at what the Pro's use; there's a reason why.
For the budget and the size of the space needed to be filled this is probably the best option. You'll just have to hunt around and see what you can find.
A set of LAB drivers alone will cost >2k in Australia, and a set of 80Hz Edgar midbass shells and 350Hz trax horns about double that. I've got the LABs and am pricing the Ehorns at the moment (working out shipping etc)
The difference between a good set of horns and the Adires in that sort of space will be like a moped compared to one of these
<img src=http://www.ultimatecarpage.com/large/1488-1.jpg>
If that falls through I might be interested in the drivers. Email me if you like.
Cheers
Kanga said:
Brett hit on it earlier...they just can't move enough air in a very large room. Don't get me wrong...I really do like the sound of these little speakers...they do a great job...especially for the money.
Let me also say that I am, by no means, a speaker designer...heck, I shouldn't even play one on Tv! If your looking to build...or possibly build some speakers...stick to sites like this one (and some others) who have got members with not only a wealth of knowledge...but they also have members with some extraordinary experience in speaker building. I can't tell you how happy I am that we/I have resources like this at our fingertips. But you still have to be careful
If your friend is trying to fill this rather large room with sound...you'll really want something that can do it. In my listening experiences...you can't beat horns. While some pro speakers can leave something to be desired...there are many designs out there which I have found I really like for home audio use. Some of the best sound I have heard is from the EdgarHorn TiTan system. Which is a bit pricey for the whole system...but, you can buy horns like these (and others) separate. This allows you to mate your horn with whichever mid-bass enclosure you like. Again...bass horns do sound great...but, in my experience, they can become quite large...and many times have a rather high cut-off frequency...making it almost mandatory that you have a sub...or some kind of low bass enclosure. But there are other options for bass/mid-bass. You can get yourself a 15" jbl, Altec, Tad, etc. woofer and mate it to the appropriate enclosure...wether it be sealed, ported, karlson...etc. This can give you some good sound in a smaller (usually) enclosure which extends further down than the bass horn. Again...this may not be ideal...but it can be a compromise which works (this is the compromise I am taking in my first venture into DIY speakers...*gulp*
)You may be able to find some deals on used equipment (such as the woofers and compression drivers)...if you can...this can save you some money...just be sure you buy from someone you can trust.
Depending on what direction you take...you may or may not need a tweeter...others may be borderline. I really like the sound of the JBL 2441 and 2440 drivers...these are both 2" (exit) compression drivers...but there are many other good sounding compression drivers out there. As for the EdgarHorn "salad Bowls"...the 350Hz horns are dang nice! However, I went with the 500Hz horns instead...mainly due to the lower cost.
I guess you (and your buddy) just have to what direction you want to go...then...if your like me...get advice from others whom you trust, at sites like this one, to help you choose a proven design (and build method) which suits your needs.
There are many directions you can go which I'm sure would be more than fine with you...and your buddy. Just be sure to...
...Have fun!
The Eminence 12" Lab drivers are $150 USD ea. at Partsexpress.com
Even if shipping is $100 apiece I'd think you'd come out ahead ordering them. I guess you are using Aussie dollars in your pricing. If they are really that expensive there, someone is making a killing, because they must ship them at a favorable bulk rate.
I think 2 would do the job! They are reputed to be a pain to construct though.
Even if shipping is $100 apiece I'd think you'd come out ahead ordering them. I guess you are using Aussie dollars in your pricing. If they are really that expensive there, someone is making a killing, because they must ship them at a favorable bulk rate.
I think 2 would do the job! They are reputed to be a pain to construct though.
You sure about that?Brett said:
Ive never seen a low end Eminence driver that looks anything like a shiva?(or visa-versa)
They will only break up if the box is wrong or the amp is distorting, or maybe you just expect to much...
and that'll be your own fault!
Plus not all of us have $10000 to spend on a sub that sound's only 1% better...
Kanga said:
1. Me 2!(in the 2003 catalogue you'll find em)
2. dont know sorry.
Thanks for the latest responses.
Firstly Exurbia - your horns etc sound great, but on further reflection probably won't be practical in this situation. The plan was that I assemble the XO and supply it and all the rest of the bits to him when he comes over to Melbourne in a few weeks. My friend then builds the cabinets on Flinders Island, mounts the drivers and XO and away he goes. He doesn't have any measuring equipment or skills in DIY audio and I won't be able to be involved in putting it together and helping there. So that really means that a kit or established design or second hand equipment is the only way to go here.
It seems that the Adire HE 10.1 won't be man enough for the job, despite their supposed 200W power handling, because they don't have the displacement capability. This probably applies to pretty much anything with drivers less than 12" that isn't horn loaded.
Once you go for high efficiency 15" drivers crossing over to a high frequency horn, wouldn't dispersion be a problem?
Sooo.... Apart from picking up somthing second-hand, any other suggestions? Pispeakers look like a possibility, but will probably need to be imported from the US, which will cost big $.
Mick
Firstly Exurbia - your horns etc sound great, but on further reflection probably won't be practical in this situation. The plan was that I assemble the XO and supply it and all the rest of the bits to him when he comes over to Melbourne in a few weeks. My friend then builds the cabinets on Flinders Island, mounts the drivers and XO and away he goes. He doesn't have any measuring equipment or skills in DIY audio and I won't be able to be involved in putting it together and helping there. So that really means that a kit or established design or second hand equipment is the only way to go here.
It seems that the Adire HE 10.1 won't be man enough for the job, despite their supposed 200W power handling, because they don't have the displacement capability. This probably applies to pretty much anything with drivers less than 12" that isn't horn loaded.
Once you go for high efficiency 15" drivers crossing over to a high frequency horn, wouldn't dispersion be a problem?
Sooo.... Apart from picking up somthing second-hand, any other suggestions? Pispeakers look like a possibility, but will probably need to be imported from the US, which will cost big $.
Mick
Just for info, the rough rule of thumb used in spec-ing PA systems is between 5w to 10w per punter, due to increasing size of rooms with audience size and the amount of sound the average human body absorbs.
So if you are looking at 100 people in this room for a dance or whatever, you're looking at a 500w to 1Kw system, and that's with high efficiency PA systems...
So if you are looking at 100 people in this room for a dance or whatever, you're looking at a 500w to 1Kw system, and that's with high efficiency PA systems...
rolfy72 said:
Yep. It's based on the Beta 10CX, thier <i>bottom</i> of the line, and second smallest, stamped frame Pro unit coax.
Eminence are the largest speaker manufacturer in the world by a huge margin, and produce a ton of OEM drivers too. My LAB drivers which are superb, were a custom design by Tom Danley, yet made by Eminence. The Shiva's are the same (not designed by Tom). If you've never seen a LAB driver, the Adire DPL12 is very similar.
From this comment I can only assume that you have no knowledge of the requirements of satisafactorily filling a large space, nor of how drivers actually work.
Visit the Pro manufacturer sites and see what they specify for cinemas of that volume, and/or buy a book on acoustics or Pro system design.
Pinkmouse's comment on rough requirements above will give you an idea of what's really needed: 500 - 1000W into a 100+dB system that has reasonably low distortion.
That's true, and I never suggested anything of the like. But there is the right tool for the job, and a skanky little 10" driver in a ported box is <b>not</b> it in this case. If you were talking about a a 12' x 15' room the 10.1 might be fine.
The difference between the performance of a LABhorn, and a 10" driver in a ported box isn't 1%, but several <i>thousand</i> percent at least.
As it's not your, nor my money that's being spent, I would be far happier if the people actually involved in this project didn't waste their budget on something that's not capable of doing the job.
They're about 89-90dB/1W/1m and quite decent sounding, esp if you put a better xover in them. But all my comments about the applicability of the Adire also apply to the JC60 in this situation.
Well we've got around 100W to play with for the main speakers and possibly another 200W or so for a sub, so clearly we're not going to get to nightclub SPL levels. At the moment my friend hires a PA set up for dances when he needs to, so this still remains an option for a big night.
So still looking for further suggestions on something that will do the best (albeit not entirely adequate) for the budget available...
Any opinions on Pispeakers? There don't seem to be too many other options for good sounding PA kits or designs.
I'd even be interested in buying some good drivers and putting them in a box with an established XO design, remembering that the ability to test and adjust is limited after building.
Any answers to dispersion problems in 15" drivers?
Mick
So still looking for further suggestions on something that will do the best (albeit not entirely adequate) for the budget available...
Any opinions on Pispeakers? There don't seem to be too many other options for good sounding PA kits or designs.
I'd even be interested in buying some good drivers and putting them in a box with an established XO design, remembering that the ability to test and adjust is limited after building.
Any answers to dispersion problems in 15" drivers?
Mick
Brett said:
Yes Im am not that uninformed, I realise that Eminence make many OEM drivers...
"From this comment I can only assume that you have no knowledge of the requirements of satisafactorily filling a large space, nor of how drivers actually work. "
One thing I do know is a overpowered PA and church hall dont mix! A small system will get loud in a church.
Ive been playing with speakers all of my life, I have played in bands(Bass guitarist)and I install car audio. Have built many DIY projects.
Sure I dont have some elabourate sound room or even any test gear other than my ears...
IMO 90% off the stuff you hear and read about speakers on the net is overkill(like $1000 cables!)but thats what some people want so thats up to them!
"They will only break up if the box is wrong or the amp is distorting, or maybe you just expect to much...
and that'll be your own fault!"
That's my theory and Im stickin 2 it. If the box is incorrect it will effect cone breakup at high spl's, If the amp distorts the speaker will breakup, and if you push it too hard or low it will break up(coz u expected to much and turned the volume/bass up too much...)
" But all my comments about the applicability of the Adire also apply to the JC60 in this situation."
Im not here for an squabble or to be insulted, what I wrote was "are you sure" not "you dont know what your on about" like you replied to me...sorry
rolfy72 said:
I've been an engineer for nearly 20 years, and built a number of pro systems and even studios plus a ton of other audio and RF work. Designed, built and measured a lot of gear in my time. Currently I'm tendering for the redesign of the sound systems in a small private theatre and a medium-sized club. I also play 'some' bass, have roadied a bit and done FOH.
One of the companies I worked for did a lot of church installs, as the owner was a religious man and enjoyed contributing in this way so I've been in a few. Full of people, they can be surprisingly dead acoustically.
I know what you can actually buy in Australia for $750, and even second hand it's not a lot, and at no time did I suggest anything that's overkill. Re-read my earlier posts. My comments were based upon about 80 years of basic acoustic and electrical engineering and my own personal experience of doing it. Please read some Olson, Beranek or Alton-Everest (to start with) for a better understanding of the theory involved, and manufacturers sites for what people actually use to get an idea of what works. Pro audio people are notoriously anti-audiophile BS and visiting hobbyist audio sites won't get you a lot in the way of valuable info as to what works in what amounts to (in this instance) a small club sized install. Don't beleive me? Go to a pro audio forum and anounce you're an audiophile by telling them you can hear the difference between cables, <i>any</i> cables.
That's my theory and Im stickin 2 it. If the box is incorrect it will effect cone breakup at high spl's, If the amp distorts the speaker will breakup, and if you push it too hard or low it will break up(coz u expected to much and turned the volume/bass up too much...)[/B][/QUOTE]
No argument in principle; what you say is true. To expect a pair of small cheap drivers in a small box to provide even modest levels in a large space with reasonable levels of distortion and compression, is expecting too much of them. Glad you finally agree.
Remember too, to add in the distortion of the non-linearity of the small driver moving a long way in the gap, even without cone breakup. However, there is a quite a large difference between what a well developed and implemented professional quality system is capable of, and what a 10" Eminemce in a small box is. The latter will overload and distort beyond what is comfortable and pleasant to listen to a long, loooong time before a proper SR system will.
The entire crux of my argument is not that the box is the wrong size. It's that the entire Adire HE10.1 is inadequate for the job of doing both the domestic listening and the film/dance aspects. Used for the latter, of course it will break up, of course it will distort. If you turn up the bass it's just going to sound crappier sooner. If I use my motorcycle to try to tow a semi, should I be surprised if something breaks? Used solely for music listening in a similar way to you would in a living room, fine, except you will need a sub, as you'll have no boundary reinforcement in the low end and it will sound thin.
In a properly specified audio system, domestic or professional, the amp should never obviously distort, as it will be large enough to have some headrom, even at the highest SPLs you envisage using it. With decent high eff speakers the power allocation Kanga has should allow for modestly loud-ish, but not club/theatre levels, clean enough to be pleasant for people to listen to.
The <i>entire</i> point of me replying before, and now, is to ensure that Kanga didn't take any well meant, but incorrect advice and waste his friends' budget on something unsuitable.
Variac
Your suggestion of trying the PA speakers with the amp that he has is a good one, but I'm not sure when he will do this next. There's only one PA setup that can be rented on the island, so he can't try different setups.
Most of the time he's going to be listening to music for his own pleasure, so getting something that sounds good there is probably the number 1 requirement. If we can get good enough levels for a film night, that would be great. Sounds like full blown disco levels are not going to be possible, but something that can make good sound at moderate levels would be good. For more volume he can hire the PA.
Brett - if I can drag you away from your discussion with Rolfy , are you able to advise whether something using a horn tweeter and a single 15" driver will have dispersion problems in the upper mids? Would an MTM using say 10" drivers be better? Do you have any specific suggestions for the best choice within the budget?
Thanks
Mick
Your suggestion of trying the PA speakers with the amp that he has is a good one, but I'm not sure when he will do this next. There's only one PA setup that can be rented on the island, so he can't try different setups.
Most of the time he's going to be listening to music for his own pleasure, so getting something that sounds good there is probably the number 1 requirement. If we can get good enough levels for a film night, that would be great. Sounds like full blown disco levels are not going to be possible, but something that can make good sound at moderate levels would be good. For more volume he can hire the PA.
Brett - if I can drag you away from your discussion with Rolfy
, are you able to advise whether something using a horn tweeter and a single 15" driver will have dispersion problems in the upper mids? Would an MTM using say 10" drivers be better? Do you have any specific suggestions for the best choice within the budget?Thanks
Mick
Mick,
It can be done, witness the 15" Tannoys. To stop any strangeness in the midbass/mids the dispersion between the drivers should be approx the same wherever the drivers crossover. a 15, a 10/8 in a short horn, and a 1" would be my preferred solution. If I was specifying this as a commercial job something like the JBL CS3115 would probably be a good compromise application. A number of 'philes have bought these and used them domestically with excellent results.
When I have some time next week, I'll make some more specific suggestions and provide some links and I even have some designs on my HDD here somewhere. I've been thinking hard about how to implement it for the budget, and not have something no one wants to listen to in either application (noted the priority is music for listening).
more info needed/offered...
Hi Guys,
I reread the thread and don't find any mention of the actual size of the hall, nor the headcount of the 'audience' which seem to bee important in the context of the solutions we are essentially talking/reading about.
Kanga, are we talking about a 'big domestic' room ie 20'x30'x16' or the large gymnasium/warehouse size 100'x30'x20' mentioned (don't remember who)??
The he10.1 has a pre-assembled form called the Kosala, which is specced and tested to produce 105db with relatively low distortion from 55hz and above, the he12.1 should do better, both with respect to max output and low end extension.
The reason I ask is that I have used speakers with similar output levels very successfully in the 20x30 scenario, but the number of people never exceeded 20 or so. If the room and headcounts mostly don't need serious PA gear perhaps you could use 2 pairs of he12.1s or equivalent. They seem to have a very benign impedance (mostly 10-12 ohms) curve, and the kenwood amp would probably drive them quite happily in parallel, secondly because they are quite sensitive, you should stay inside the 'thermal' envelope of the amp, even at pretty good output levels. After all, at 97db/w you only need 10w per speaker, even 100 dodgy kenwood watts (RMS?) per channel should be more than adequate
Just my 2c
Stuart
Hi Guys,
I reread the thread and don't find any mention of the actual size of the hall, nor the headcount of the 'audience' which seem to bee important in the context of the solutions we are essentially talking/reading about.
Kanga, are we talking about a 'big domestic' room ie 20'x30'x16' or the large gymnasium/warehouse size 100'x30'x20' mentioned (don't remember who)??
The he10.1 has a pre-assembled form called the Kosala, which is specced and tested to produce 105db with relatively low distortion from 55hz and above, the he12.1 should do better, both with respect to max output and low end extension.
The reason I ask is that I have used speakers with similar output levels very successfully in the 20x30 scenario, but the number of people never exceeded 20 or so. If the room and headcounts mostly don't need serious PA gear perhaps you could use 2 pairs of he12.1s or equivalent. They seem to have a very benign impedance (mostly 10-12 ohms) curve, and the kenwood amp would probably drive them quite happily in parallel, secondly because they are quite sensitive, you should stay inside the 'thermal' envelope of the amp, even at pretty good output levels. After all, at 97db/w you only need 10w per speaker, even 100 dodgy kenwood watts (RMS?) per channel should be more than adequate
Just my 2c
Stuart
ive never built a p.a. system but i have messed around with a few line arrays to some good mid/verge of hifi results...they might have huge advantages here but im not quite sure of the budget requirements will yield them...how about a line such as the one on the bottlehead site...i will try to find the exact link...i think it uses something like 8 or 16 mcm 5 or 6 inch drivers...i saw a kit design for this...maybe you could do something similar as a diy thing... i know you dont want to do your own design but it might fit the budget requirements...maybe something like 16 or 32 drivers per side with two 18" subs in a vented enclosure...it just hurts that you dont really have the right circumstances to design your own speakers for your buddy
Hi Taufern
The straight 8 looks like it has the goodies on paper - lots of cone area, and reasonable efficiency of 96dB. Not sure how they get this efficiency out of a standard dome tweeter. I didn't see any comments about it being able to handle high power / SPLs. Also price is getting a little high, especially with shipping from the US, excepting if we leave out the sub.
Brett - looking forward to your suggestions when you have time.
Mick
The straight 8 looks like it has the goodies on paper - lots of cone area, and reasonable efficiency of 96dB. Not sure how they get this efficiency out of a standard dome tweeter. I didn't see any comments about it being able to handle high power / SPLs. Also price is getting a little high, especially with shipping from the US, excepting if we leave out the sub.
Brett - looking forward to your suggestions when you have time.
Mick
the straight8 is a cool design but i just remembered it as the whamodyne...there are many many versions of this offered in the bottlehead site...super whamodyne versions have been successful...how about swapping out the dome tweeter for a compression horn and having quite a different approach...maybe a mid entry pair of horn loaded tweets would do the trick...again i am not an expert by any means at p.a. systems...but it might be something for somebody on this thread to toy with or think about
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