Brett said:
Kanga said:
Thats why I said get the JV60/80 kit and build a efficient sub.
$750US would be well over $1000AU which should cover the above mentioned speaker system(DIY of course).
Even in a room of this size it will still get reasonably loud and sound good enough for what he wants(IMO).
Jcar are running out the JV60 ATM you may get some discount if you haggle them and get 2 pairs of "speaker only kits"($1030AU is the going price ATM)
"If I use my motorcycle to try to tow a semi, should I be surprised if something breaks? "
Huh?
Nah u wanna tow the motorcycle with the semi...it wont break I promise! 
Kanga, how tall r the ceiling arch's, a 30'x100' old church hall would have to be 25-40' high?(hate to paint it)
rolfy72 said:
Still won't move enough air even with two pair. And two pairs of 4R speakers connected in parallel with most amps will limit the power, distort like hell and possibly kill the amp. The Vifa midwoofs barely keep up with moderately loud in a largish domestic room without distorting and sounding strained.
It will simply make a dirty noise, and not go loud enough.
Brett and Rolfy, its time to stop beating each other up and hit me instead. 
I spoke to my friend last night just to confirm the size of the hall and which way he wants to go, and my memory of the size of the hall was quite wrong. Its actually 12m x 7m x 3.5 high, which is like a really large living room, so much smaller than I originally said.
I'm really sorry if I wasted people's time on this one
So the bar is a lot lower now in terms of the SPL needed, and there should be many more options.
My friend also is happy to go for a sub at a later stage. A 250W plate amp and Adire Tumult would seem like a good option here. This will cost around AUD$750 (US$480 and rising) in materials. He seemed happy to spend AUD$600 (US$400) on the Adire HE10.1s too, but would probably be persuaded to spend more for something better.
Please be gentle on me... I'm just a little confused sometimes.
Mick
I spoke to my friend last night just to confirm the size of the hall and which way he wants to go, and my memory of the size of the hall was quite wrong. Its actually 12m x 7m x 3.5 high, which is like a really large living room, so much smaller than I originally said.
I'm really sorry if I wasted people's time on this one
So the bar is a lot lower now in terms of the SPL needed, and there should be many more options. My friend also is happy to go for a sub at a later stage. A 250W plate amp and Adire Tumult would seem like a good option here. This will cost around AUD$750 (US$480 and rising) in materials. He seemed happy to spend AUD$600 (US$400) on the Adire HE10.1s too, but would probably be persuaded to spend more for something better.
Please be gentle on me... I'm just a little confused sometimes.
Mick
ahh so normal midrange+tweeter- no horn loading needed,,
a labhorn wil do for sub..(high efficiency)
pic of labhorns
www.prosoundweb.com/lsp
absolutely
bookshelf speks wont do so good -but what else is there
(piezo horns at jaycar 20$ ea + 30$ jaycar generic 8inch lol)
a labhorn wil do for sub..(high efficiency)
pic of labhorns
www.prosoundweb.com/lsp
absolutely
bookshelf speks wont do so good -but what else is there
(piezo horns at jaycar 20$ ea + 30$ jaycar generic 8inch lol)
Brett said:
Yep it will distort like hell and possibly kill the amp, if you wire them for a 2ohm load in parallel.
The Kenwood amp takes a 6ohm load so two JV60's in series on the main channels will not harm the amp, the loss in db from the higher load should be equalled or bettered by doubling of the cone area.
Brett, what would you call moderately loud 100db?
Koinichiwa,
Lets be blunt here. I have, for Band use (Vocal, Keyborads etc, plus some drums) and for DJ used a pair of 15/3's (be they EV, Zeck or the like) in considerably larger halls, with around 200 - 400W RMS per side. No, it does not give headbanging Heavy metal levels, but considering the relative size of the Box you got a lot pf SPL and pretty decent, puncy bass, if lacking the last octave. Add a suitable subwoofer and your are in business down to throuserflapping, stomach churning bass.
To illustrate, my most commonly used 15/3 was a locally made (by us) copy of the Zeck 15/3, using more often thatn not EVM15B Pro-Line over EVM15L Pro-Line (the original used the 15L) for a little better Bass. The Midrange was a modified Audax PR170M0 and the Tweeter a Beyma CP-16 or later Beyma CP-21, 3rd order HP crossovers at 1KHz and 5..6KHz.
A later variant had a 15L Pro-Line in a short, conical frontal waveguide with 4pcs Fostex 4" Midranges and a Beyma CP-21 Slot radiator arranged as a linesource in a semi coincidental arrangement, X-Over 3rd Order HP at 500Hz and 4.5KHz.
We copied both designs and tended to simply "fill in" the Bass by adding the same baox sans Midrange and treble and EQ'ing the upper bas and lower midraneg hump out. I also used the 15/3 as "top" with an 18" Subwoofer (EVM18BPL, Gauss, Peavy BW etc) and very happily with 15" Carlson units.
Now non of this is suitable to deal with really large venuea, but in venues having a few 100 people and not requiring extreme sound pressures (as Techno, Drum & Bass or Heavy Metal do) such a fairly small rig proved very good.
BTW, the normal use of the 15/3 in the context of the "BIG" system (18" W Bass Bins, Turbosound Copy 10" Lower Midrange Horns, JBL Copy 2" Upper Midrange Horns with JBL Drivers plus JBL or Beyma Ring as HF radiators - a minimum of 6X Bass, 4X lower Midrange, 2X upper Midrange and 8 X HF per side) was as "Stage sidefill" and with a little stand as Floor monitor. So basically, when these where not doing sound reinforcement duties somewhere it was what the band heard themselves on.
So, I'd say a well implemented pair of 15/2 or 15/3 in suitable enclosures (look up the JBL Everest Series for Ideas) will do splendidly and $ 1,000 Yankee bucks should by a more than okay set of Drivers, Horns etc. Unless earthquakes are called upon you may find no need for a sub, though a large corner enclosure seems desirable, with ELF tuning and possibly some EQ.
Sayonara
Kanga said:
Lets be blunt here. I have, for Band use (Vocal, Keyborads etc, plus some drums) and for DJ used a pair of 15/3's (be they EV, Zeck or the like) in considerably larger halls, with around 200 - 400W RMS per side. No, it does not give headbanging Heavy metal levels, but considering the relative size of the Box you got a lot pf SPL and pretty decent, puncy bass, if lacking the last octave. Add a suitable subwoofer and your are in business down to throuserflapping, stomach churning bass.
To illustrate, my most commonly used 15/3 was a locally made (by us) copy of the Zeck 15/3, using more often thatn not EVM15B Pro-Line over EVM15L Pro-Line (the original used the 15L) for a little better Bass. The Midrange was a modified Audax PR170M0 and the Tweeter a Beyma CP-16 or later Beyma CP-21, 3rd order HP crossovers at 1KHz and 5..6KHz.
A later variant had a 15L Pro-Line in a short, conical frontal waveguide with 4pcs Fostex 4" Midranges and a Beyma CP-21 Slot radiator arranged as a linesource in a semi coincidental arrangement, X-Over 3rd Order HP at 500Hz and 4.5KHz.
We copied both designs and tended to simply "fill in" the Bass by adding the same baox sans Midrange and treble and EQ'ing the upper bas and lower midraneg hump out. I also used the 15/3 as "top" with an 18" Subwoofer (EVM18BPL, Gauss, Peavy BW etc) and very happily with 15" Carlson units.
Now non of this is suitable to deal with really large venuea, but in venues having a few 100 people and not requiring extreme sound pressures (as Techno, Drum & Bass or Heavy Metal do) such a fairly small rig proved very good.
BTW, the normal use of the 15/3 in the context of the "BIG" system (18" W Bass Bins, Turbosound Copy 10" Lower Midrange Horns, JBL Copy 2" Upper Midrange Horns with JBL Drivers plus JBL or Beyma Ring as HF radiators - a minimum of 6X Bass, 4X lower Midrange, 2X upper Midrange and 8 X HF per side) was as "Stage sidefill" and with a little stand as Floor monitor. So basically, when these where not doing sound reinforcement duties somewhere it was what the band heard themselves on.
So, I'd say a well implemented pair of 15/2 or 15/3 in suitable enclosures (look up the JBL Everest Series for Ideas) will do splendidly and $ 1,000 Yankee bucks should by a more than okay set of Drivers, Horns etc. Unless earthquakes are called upon you may find no need for a sub, though a large corner enclosure seems desirable, with ELF tuning and possibly some EQ.
Sayonara
Need efficient high quality design
Two 15" drivers in bass reflex box crossed over to 500 cycle horn and compression driver will give about 105dB/watt sensitivity.
You can use most 15"s but not the subwoof type....need to reach 500 Hz with clarity. Use 1" comp driver best are JBL, Altec.
I would use Altec 15" 416B x 2 in vented cab with 902 1" comp driver in a 511 horn. These are what is usually behind the screen in a movie theatre. Will provide HiFi sound to about 450 people with extreme efficiency. Check old theaters to see if selling any old Altec stuff like Altec A5 or A7. Hard beat them for quality/price. I large room setting are unbeatable.
Two 15" drivers in bass reflex box crossed over to 500 cycle horn and compression driver will give about 105dB/watt sensitivity.
You can use most 15"s but not the subwoof type....need to reach 500 Hz with clarity. Use 1" comp driver best are JBL, Altec.
I would use Altec 15" 416B x 2 in vented cab with 902 1" comp driver in a 511 horn. These are what is usually behind the screen in a movie theatre. Will provide HiFi sound to about 450 people with extreme efficiency. Check old theaters to see if selling any old Altec stuff like Altec A5 or A7. Hard beat them for quality/price. I large room setting are unbeatable.
Thanks for the PA type suggestions. This is a new world for me, and so a little enlightenment would be appreciated.
What is a 15/2 or 15/3?
If you are using a 15" driver up to 500 Hz, wouldn't the horn that takes over struggle to cover the frequency range all the way to 20kHz. I thought that horns could only work over a limited number of octaves (4?).
I'm a little reluctant to go down the straight PA path, because I've almost never heard sound that I've thought sounded particularly good through either a PA or in a movie theatre. Also, there seem to be a lack of kits available in Australia, or designs.
The only time I have heard really good PA sound was at the ABC (Australian Broadcasting Authority) studios in a live jazz concert, and that was stunning. However I suspect their budget was quite a bit more than $1000.
I'm prepared to persuaded otherwise.
Mick
What is a 15/2 or 15/3?
If you are using a 15" driver up to 500 Hz, wouldn't the horn that takes over struggle to cover the frequency range all the way to 20kHz. I thought that horns could only work over a limited number of octaves (4?).
I'm a little reluctant to go down the straight PA path, because I've almost never heard sound that I've thought sounded particularly good through either a PA or in a movie theatre. Also, there seem to be a lack of kits available in Australia, or designs.
The only time I have heard really good PA sound was at the ABC (Australian Broadcasting Authority) studios in a live jazz concert, and that was stunning. However I suspect their budget was quite a bit more than $1000.
I'm prepared to persuaded otherwise.
Mick
Koinichiwa,
Shorthand for:
15/2 - 15" Woofer 2-Way "full range Cabinet"
Usually comes with a Horn, 1" Compression driver and 15" Woofer, crossover in the 1.6KHz Range.
15/3 - 15" Woofer 3-Way "full range Cabinet"
Usually comes with a Tweeter/Supertweeter crossed in at 4...6KHz, Cone Midrange from 6.5"....10" with a lower crossover point anywhere between 250Hz and 1KHz (bigger midrange cone = lower crossover but poorer dispersion in the upper mids) and a 15" Woofer.
A typhical 15/2 will have a crossover point around 1.5..2KHz, so the Woofer is in fact Woofer/Midrange and the Horn is a Tweeter Midrange.
My current speakers are a lot like that, they are Tannoy Monitor 15" Coaxials, meaning a 15", 2" Voicecoil Woofer with a concentrically mounted 2" Voicecoil compression driver, using the cone as extension of the short horn enclosed in the polepiece. Crossover is in essence 1st Order (HF equalised) @ 1KHz. In their 230 Liter Corner Reflex/Horn enclosures the system realistically covers 30Hz-16KHz without major issues.
If your frioend is a really good woodworker I'd suggest to him to build a pair of copies of the Tannoy GRF Autograph (google it) and fit it initially with one of the Tannoy Style Coaxials from P-Audio in Thailand and eventually get a pair of Tannoy Reds or Golds from E-Bay.
Using a pair of 15" Reds witn the stock Crossover Stereo Sound shows the in room response of the GRF Autograph as 102db/2.83V/1m +/-2db (3rd octave smoothing) with -6db points at around 50Hz and 10KHz.
This seems bad on first view, but the in room response actually follows well the so-called "house curve" which even for studios suggest a 1-2db/8ave rollof above 2..5KHz in room.
Hence my comment about the 15/3 with the Linesource Midrange/Treble. The Fostex Driver used as Midrange was an OEM, Black Cone version of the longstanding "full-range" favourite, the FE-103 Sigma.
This seems gone from the fostex Lineup, a decent dropin is the:
http://madisound.com/fe127e.pdf
Currently 4pcs FE-127 from Madisound cost around 140 Bucks and make an array with 60W RMS and 180W "Program" power handling and 97db/1W/1m Sensitivity. This array will work great with a simple 2nd order highpass at 250Hz and can be left running without lowpass. The FE-103Z array had another db or 2 in SPL.
The Slot Radiator Tweeter from Beyma is great, not sure about sources, but a 2nd or 3rd Order Highpass at around 5KHz should belnd the Slot radiator in where the Fostex array begins to beam and lobe. You will need to attenuate the Slot radiator a little. No Idea what the Beyma Slots cost now, but they used to be around $ 100 each.
So, we have blown $ 480 on the Midrange/Treble array with 250Hz-20++KHz and 97db/W/m sensitivity, plus a dispersion of around 140(H) X 20(V) degrees, ideally to deliver sound over a wide area, but minimsing floor/ceiling reflection (the speakers should be angled inwards by around 45 degrees BTW).
What remains is to find a pair of 15" Woofers that offer at least 97db/W/m @ 100Hz and can work in a reasonably modest enclosure and cost less than $ 110 each, not impossible.
Anyway, I only mentioned it.
Compared to a 15/2 with it's PA Horn/Driver combos I always felt the 15/3 to have a much more HiFi/Studio type of sound, arguably the linesource & fronthorn loaded 15" version briefly discussed above was my favourite, size around 75cm(H) X 65cm(W) X 40cm (D). Excellent vocal intelligibility and able to play very loud without sounding nasty the way many PA derived horns (though not Tannoys) do.
BTW, some notes on the JBL Everest are here:
http://www.audioheritage.org/html/profiles/jbl/everest.htm
This too did not sound much like typhical "PA" Horns when I auditioned them about 15 Years ago in germany, nor did the "ACR" Brand Klipschorn derivates using Fostex Drivers.
Still, you might still want to consider setting him up with two pairs of Afterburners (or maybe even 3 Pairs - full surround with 1 pair for the Center), plus subwoofer.
At the keenest prices for the Eminence Beta12LT and the Radioshack Tweeters bought from the US as well you invest between 110 and 150 US dollars per pair in drivers, then get your friend to go scouting on E-Bay for 12" 'Vintage' Fullrangers from Goodmans (Axiom 201/301 and earlier especially), Electrovoice (SP-12), Lomo (Russian - get the Alnico Magent ones) and similar (again, google the brandnames) as future upgrades.
Spend the rest of the budget onto a pair of 15" active Subs (you can probably find a few going cheap on the usual sites).
Sayonara
Kanga said:
Shorthand for:
15/2 - 15" Woofer 2-Way "full range Cabinet"
Usually comes with a Horn, 1" Compression driver and 15" Woofer, crossover in the 1.6KHz Range.
15/3 - 15" Woofer 3-Way "full range Cabinet"
Usually comes with a Tweeter/Supertweeter crossed in at 4...6KHz, Cone Midrange from 6.5"....10" with a lower crossover point anywhere between 250Hz and 1KHz (bigger midrange cone = lower crossover but poorer dispersion in the upper mids) and a 15" Woofer.
Kanga said:
A typhical 15/2 will have a crossover point around 1.5..2KHz, so the Woofer is in fact Woofer/Midrange and the Horn is a Tweeter Midrange.
My current speakers are a lot like that, they are Tannoy Monitor 15" Coaxials, meaning a 15", 2" Voicecoil Woofer with a concentrically mounted 2" Voicecoil compression driver, using the cone as extension of the short horn enclosed in the polepiece. Crossover is in essence 1st Order (HF equalised) @ 1KHz. In their 230 Liter Corner Reflex/Horn enclosures the system realistically covers 30Hz-16KHz without major issues.
If your frioend is a really good woodworker I'd suggest to him to build a pair of copies of the Tannoy GRF Autograph (google it) and fit it initially with one of the Tannoy Style Coaxials from P-Audio in Thailand and eventually get a pair of Tannoy Reds or Golds from E-Bay.
Using a pair of 15" Reds witn the stock Crossover Stereo Sound shows the in room response of the GRF Autograph as 102db/2.83V/1m +/-2db (3rd octave smoothing) with -6db points at around 50Hz and 10KHz.
This seems bad on first view, but the in room response actually follows well the so-called "house curve" which even for studios suggest a 1-2db/8ave rollof above 2..5KHz in room.
Kanga said:
Hence my comment about the 15/3 with the Linesource Midrange/Treble. The Fostex Driver used as Midrange was an OEM, Black Cone version of the longstanding "full-range" favourite, the FE-103 Sigma.
This seems gone from the fostex Lineup, a decent dropin is the:
http://madisound.com/fe127e.pdf
Currently 4pcs FE-127 from Madisound cost around 140 Bucks and make an array with 60W RMS and 180W "Program" power handling and 97db/1W/1m Sensitivity. This array will work great with a simple 2nd order highpass at 250Hz and can be left running without lowpass. The FE-103Z array had another db or 2 in SPL.
The Slot Radiator Tweeter from Beyma is great, not sure about sources, but a 2nd or 3rd Order Highpass at around 5KHz should belnd the Slot radiator in where the Fostex array begins to beam and lobe. You will need to attenuate the Slot radiator a little. No Idea what the Beyma Slots cost now, but they used to be around $ 100 each.
So, we have blown $ 480 on the Midrange/Treble array with 250Hz-20++KHz and 97db/W/m sensitivity, plus a dispersion of around 140(H) X 20(V) degrees, ideally to deliver sound over a wide area, but minimsing floor/ceiling reflection (the speakers should be angled inwards by around 45 degrees BTW).
What remains is to find a pair of 15" Woofers that offer at least 97db/W/m @ 100Hz and can work in a reasonably modest enclosure and cost less than $ 110 each, not impossible.
Anyway, I only mentioned it.
Compared to a 15/2 with it's PA Horn/Driver combos I always felt the 15/3 to have a much more HiFi/Studio type of sound, arguably the linesource & fronthorn loaded 15" version briefly discussed above was my favourite, size around 75cm(H) X 65cm(W) X 40cm (D). Excellent vocal intelligibility and able to play very loud without sounding nasty the way many PA derived horns (though not Tannoys) do.
BTW, some notes on the JBL Everest are here:
http://www.audioheritage.org/html/profiles/jbl/everest.htm
This too did not sound much like typhical "PA" Horns when I auditioned them about 15 Years ago in germany, nor did the "ACR" Brand Klipschorn derivates using Fostex Drivers.
Still, you might still want to consider setting him up with two pairs of Afterburners (or maybe even 3 Pairs - full surround with 1 pair for the Center), plus subwoofer.
At the keenest prices for the Eminence Beta12LT and the Radioshack Tweeters bought from the US as well you invest between 110 and 150 US dollars per pair in drivers, then get your friend to go scouting on E-Bay for 12" 'Vintage' Fullrangers from Goodmans (Axiom 201/301 and earlier especially), Electrovoice (SP-12), Lomo (Russian - get the Alnico Magent ones) and similar (again, google the brandnames) as future upgrades.
Spend the rest of the budget onto a pair of 15" active Subs (you can probably find a few going cheap on the usual sites).
Sayonara
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