No testing yet, but a quick listen suggests that I found some bass in this extra fluff.
Each box now has 240g of stuffing, teased out to a fare thee well and filling the whole volume.
No DATS, just REW. Not sure what I can do about real impedance measurements. The 7.3s still sound a bit off compared to how they did in the old enclosures.
Testing will recommence tomorrow!
Each box now has 240g of stuffing, teased out to a fare thee well and filling the whole volume.
No DATS, just REW. Not sure what I can do about real impedance measurements. The 7.3s still sound a bit off compared to how they did in the old enclosures.
Testing will recommence tomorrow!
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A VAST improvement, both in measurement and listening.
I did a little reading and realized that I am currently out of my depth with impedance testing via REW. Will have to read up some more, and solder up the necessary cables. Not happening today.
In the meantime, I'd appreciate help with interpretation of the new response. The 60-80 hz issues are certainly the room. Can the trough around 200hz also be attributed to that? What about the 8k-10k dip/peak?
This response graph was made using the SET. Will try again with the Crown just for fun.
I did a little reading and realized that I am currently out of my depth with impedance testing via REW. Will have to read up some more, and solder up the necessary cables. Not happening today.
In the meantime, I'd appreciate help with interpretation of the new response. The 60-80 hz issues are certainly the room. Can the trough around 200hz also be attributed to that? What about the 8k-10k dip/peak?
This response graph was made using the SET. Will try again with the Crown just for fun.
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200 hz is about 2 x 80 Hz and still well within the zone where the room dominants. 80 Hz is about what appens with an 8’ ceiling so most people have that problem.
You might be able to get some insight by measuring the loudspeaker in a different place in the room.
The stuff way up high is the A7. They are not perfect just really good.
Imp measures are fairly easy. Getting useful T/S with that is trickier. 2 audio channels on your ‘puter and a jug something like this:
dave
PS; the picture of the polyfluf you posted 2 posts back needs more teasing, it should not be “chunky”.
You might be able to get some insight by measuring the loudspeaker in a different place in the room.
The stuff way up high is the A7. They are not perfect just really good.
Imp measures are fairly easy. Getting useful T/S with that is trickier. 2 audio channels on your ‘puter and a jug something like this:
dave
PS; the picture of the polyfluf you posted 2 posts back needs more teasing, it should not be “chunky”.
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As always, Dave, I truly appreciate your prompt and tireless attention to my projects.
Understood on 200hz. Thanks.
I'll move the mic around some more, maybe measure one speaker at a time. Might reveal something useful.
The 7.3 IS really good, and didn't exhibit the same behavior up high in the Onken boxes. Could be a dampening issue. Could mean that the onken is better for this driver. I'll try to get my head around the impedance testing circuit to find out. Looking at it makes me scared I might screw it up and damage my computer. In the meantime I might play with the dampening a bit and retest.
The fluff in the picture is what I removed. It all looked like that originally, but what is in the boxes now has been teased out to cloud-like, gossamer softness. There used to be 1040g of chunky thickness. Now there is only 240g of wispy fluff, hence the vast improvement in bass response.
Understood on 200hz. Thanks.
I'll move the mic around some more, maybe measure one speaker at a time. Might reveal something useful.
The 7.3 IS really good, and didn't exhibit the same behavior up high in the Onken boxes. Could be a dampening issue. Could mean that the onken is better for this driver. I'll try to get my head around the impedance testing circuit to find out. Looking at it makes me scared I might screw it up and damage my computer. In the meantime I might play with the dampening a bit and retest.
The fluff in the picture is what I removed. It all looked like that originally, but what is in the boxes now has been teased out to cloud-like, gossamer softness. There used to be 1040g of chunky thickness. Now there is only 240g of wispy fluff, hence the vast improvement in bass response.
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The midTL for the miniOnken is physically greater volume and length so can do a better job at removing all of the back wave. Differences should be subtle. Any differences up high will be the natural uncontroleld chaotic behaviour (way beter than most), stuff coming thru the cone, and the shape of the outside of the box. The trapezoid shape wil have a lower diffraction signature.
dave
dave
http://www.planet10-hifi.com/planset/A12pw-A7-MTM-extents.pdf
Note that most will use 18 and 12mm plywood this an early drawing.
2 x the bass driver is gairly dofferent than 1 and the metal cone A7 (IMO) is better than the paper cone, but there are lots out there happy with the A7p.
dave
Note that most will use 18 and 12mm plywood this an early drawing.
2 x the bass driver is gairly dofferent than 1 and the metal cone A7 (IMO) is better than the paper cone, but there are lots out there happy with the A7p.
dave
Thanks, arvi.
I can't speak to any builds that involve the 7p, but my adventures with the 7.3 include a set of Planet 10 Markens prior to this big MTM. The over all sound is similar, as one might expect. So far the upper frequencies are a little more forward, but I'm still working on that so will reserve final judgement.
The midrange and bass from the MTMs are significantly improved over what was already very good with the Markens. Still fast and articulate, just more of it.
I'll post a full review once I get the dampening dialed in.
Hopefully, I'm not asking something I missed earlier in this thread. I'm getting ready to pull the trigger on a Pair of A 12 PWs. I have a pair of A7.3s and a pair of A7Ps that have been eNabled." can you describe the difference I'll hear in one vs. the other? I'm not doing the MTM version (yet) just the MT (or should it be w/FR?) 
?
They are drop-in replacements for each other, aren't they?
Thanks,
Mike
?They are drop-in replacements for each other, aren't they?
Thanks,
Mike
Hopefully, I'm not asking something I missed earlier in this thread. I'm getting ready to pull the trigger on a Pair of A 12 PWs. I have a pair of A7.3s and a pair of A7Ps that have been eNabled." can you describe the difference I'll hear in one vs. the other? I'm not doing the MTM version (yet) just the MT (or should it be w/FR?)
They are drop-in replacements for each other, aren't they?
Thanks,
Mike
I think the 7p vs 7.3 question is a common one. Sadly I have no experience with the 7p so can't offer anything of value.
Planet10 and Scottmoose have extensive experience with most MA drivers. I think they, among others, have discussed it in other threads, but I hope they feel free to do so again here. Nice to have that info in multiple places and in different contexts.
mikejennens,
Which cabinet are you going to put the Alpair 12PW + Alpair 7.x in?
Since you have both the A7.3 and the A7P, hopefully you will be able share your listening experiences with both the drivers soon.
If I am not wrong, the A7.3 and the A7P have the same frame/basket? That should make swapping the drivers in and out easy.
Which cabinet are you going to put the Alpair 12PW + Alpair 7.x in?
Since you have both the A7.3 and the A7P, hopefully you will be able share your listening experiences with both the drivers soon.
If I am not wrong, the A7.3 and the A7P have the same frame/basket? That should make swapping the drivers in and out easy.
mikejennens,
Which cabinet are you going to put the Alpair 12PW + Alpair 7.x in?
Since you have both the A7.3 and the A7P, hopefully you will be able share your listening experiences with both the drivers soon.
If I am not wrong, the A7.3 and the A7P have the same frame/basket? That should make swapping the drivers in and out easy.
I purchased the plan set from Dave for the Onken. I really like the looks of the tall Onken and I'm up for a bit of a challenge.
I'll have to give both of the A7s a listen and let you know. It will probably be a while before I complete the build and then I'll need to give them a few hundred hours, so don't hold your breath.
Thanks,
Mike
The big onkens for the 12pw really do look and sound fantastic. I made mine modular, so I can try the 12pw with other drivers on the top later on. I'm honestly not sure if the big MTM sounds so much better that they were worth the time, effort and $$ (especially with the cost of passive crossover parts factored in). Still tweaking and testing, however, so final judgement is reserved for now.
I'm confident that you'll love the Onkens.
Hi Quatrofish,
I've built the "simple 2-way" with A12pw and enabled A7p. I also have a few pairs of regular A7.3 metals bookshelf cabinets and in a Pensil:
On their own in cabinets by themselves, I prefer A7.3 as I feel I can listen to them longer and the detail is fantastic without being annoying.
I've listened to the 2 ways as intended with A7p and a slightly tweeked version of the passive crossover Scott designed. I did increase the resistance of the signal going to the A7p to my tastes. But I also substituted into the 2 way the A7.3 and returned to less resistance as perscribed in the xover design.
In the end I preferred the A7p in the two ways with slightly greater resistance as the blend between the two paper drivers was superior to instead using the A7.3.
I still prefer the A7.3 as a stand alone driver to the A7p, but the A7p was better in the two way application with the A12pw.
...as a side note I remember trying shrub with cocktails, and the first time thinking it was quite good. But subsequently every time I reduced the amount of shrub, the cocktail improved until my favorite version was the cocktail without shrub.
Is this telling about my preference to step down the A7p in the two way's xover?...maybe....
Mario
I've built the "simple 2-way" with A12pw and enabled A7p. I also have a few pairs of regular A7.3 metals bookshelf cabinets and in a Pensil:
On their own in cabinets by themselves, I prefer A7.3 as I feel I can listen to them longer and the detail is fantastic without being annoying.
I've listened to the 2 ways as intended with A7p and a slightly tweeked version of the passive crossover Scott designed. I did increase the resistance of the signal going to the A7p to my tastes. But I also substituted into the 2 way the A7.3 and returned to less resistance as perscribed in the xover design.
In the end I preferred the A7p in the two ways with slightly greater resistance as the blend between the two paper drivers was superior to instead using the A7.3.
I still prefer the A7.3 as a stand alone driver to the A7p, but the A7p was better in the two way application with the A12pw.
...as a side note I remember trying shrub with cocktails, and the first time thinking it was quite good. But subsequently every time I reduced the amount of shrub, the cocktail improved until my favorite version was the cocktail without shrub.
Is this telling about my preference to step down the A7p in the two way's xover?...maybe....
Mario
Got a bit more rigorous with testing today. Learned a few things, most notably that my testing situation sucks and I need to remember to test over and over in various configurations to keep room artifacts from driving me nuts. It would seem that I need to re-learn this lesson every time I build a new component. Sad.
I also looked up my tests from the Onkens and found that some of the stuff I was bothered by with the new build was present with those too. That peak at 10k? Yeah. On my old response curves AND in the factory documents. Big troughs and peaks that shift with every movement of the mic? Those too. Oops.
On an even more surprising note, I found that changing the dampening in the midTL made no measurable difference. I went from 40g barely teased at all, to 6g teased all the way out. Couldn't see the difference, and I don't think I can hear it either. If it is there, it is VERY subtle. Surprising.
Perception is reality, and they sound great to me now. Bass is certainly deeper and fuller than with the Onkens. More effortless. Vocals while watching movies are also more audible for some reason. I certainly feel no need for a sub, something I was considering before.
I can't say whether I prefer the sound of them with the PLLXO and biamped with my SET and Crown, or with the standard crossover driven only by the SET. The vast majority of my listening is at 70db or below, and the SET gets there with plenty of power to spare. I'll undoubtedly circle back around to playing with amps eventually, but for now I'm just going to enjoy the music knowing that I didn't screw up the build and these speakers sound about as good as they can.
I also looked up my tests from the Onkens and found that some of the stuff I was bothered by with the new build was present with those too. That peak at 10k? Yeah. On my old response curves AND in the factory documents. Big troughs and peaks that shift with every movement of the mic? Those too. Oops.
On an even more surprising note, I found that changing the dampening in the midTL made no measurable difference. I went from 40g barely teased at all, to 6g teased all the way out. Couldn't see the difference, and I don't think I can hear it either. If it is there, it is VERY subtle. Surprising.
Perception is reality, and they sound great to me now. Bass is certainly deeper and fuller than with the Onkens. More effortless. Vocals while watching movies are also more audible for some reason. I certainly feel no need for a sub, something I was considering before.
I can't say whether I prefer the sound of them with the PLLXO and biamped with my SET and Crown, or with the standard crossover driven only by the SET. The vast majority of my listening is at 70db or below, and the SET gets there with plenty of power to spare. I'll undoubtedly circle back around to playing with amps eventually, but for now I'm just going to enjoy the music knowing that I didn't screw up the build and these speakers sound about as good as they can.
I was wondering if someone would read into that last sentence. I didn't mean to damn them with faint praise. They sound fantastic. Honestly, they are doing exactly what I wanted them to do: deliver the same dynamic and articulate sound that the Onkens did, with more weight in the low end. This is exactly what we discussed, and I'm very pleased with the results.
They probably don't have enough hours to be 100%, so your point is well taken. I had them on in the basement for 125 hours, then probably another 25 or so between TV and music. Testing is somewhat hard on them, so I'd say they are pretty close, but if there is more improvement to be found I'll take it.
For anyone considering this build, plan to spend a couple of hours teasing out whatever polyfill you use into the thinnest, wispiest fluff you can. Dave mentioned it, but I didn't understand just how much teasing was required and WAY over damped it the first time. I started with 1040g, and ended up able to fill the entire box with only 240g once properly teased. I'm sure it will settle a bit over time, so I may add a bit more behind the upper 12pw later.
The midTL is not particularly sensitive to the amount of fill, at least as far as I can tell. It is lined with 1" of denim insulation, then filled with poly. Pack it in there lightly, with increasing density towards the back, and you should be fine. I might wire up a way to test impedance to confirm that I'm getting the most out of the 7.3, but I might not. I couldn't hear the difference between 40g and 6g, which is a fairly massive difference.
I'll post a "final" average of my testing for posterity once I get back on that computer.
Soooo, I think I need to amend this.
The big MTMs were DEFINITELY worth the time and $$. I don't know whether I've adjusted to them, or if the second pair of 12pw have settled in, but they are sounding fantastic now. The midrange and bass are outrageous. Deep. Fast. Effortless. Better than anything I've ever had in my space, and right up there with anything I've heard. The best part is that the sound is all there at low volume. My phone SPL meter tells me that most of my listening is at 60db or below, often far below, and yet it still sounds full and rich.
Much above that, however, and things fall apart a bit especially with the 7.3. I think I need to check the impedance and adjust dampening. I don't know why I'm so hesitant. Just another foray into the unknown.
Once that is done I'll probably need to play with amplification. My Bottlehead Stereomour SET puts out only 3.5 watts max. At full tilt it only pushes these speakers to around 80db (again, phone SPL meter), and the distortion was certainly audible. I might be well served by having some more power, even at moderate volumes.