Hi and thanks a lot again. So you mean that a dac with for instance a TDA1541A chip could give me a Grundig 7500 kind of sound ?
That would be very tempting.
I see that the the chip is very expensive on ebay but there are some boards that need only a case and a mains transformer. That i could do even myself.
I am instead convinced now that mods to a cd player are very tricky.
Unfortunately. Thanks a lot again, gino
Hi and thanks very interesting. Which dac is ?
I have also read about " fake TDA1541A " but still what makes me nervous is why the manufacturer does not produce this cheap anymore.
This really puzzles me. I would expect to see this chip commonly in TOTL equipment where the best sound is the aim.
Really do not understand.
Anyway i have a plan
I will buy a kit with this TDA1541A that i suppose will be fake ... then i will look around for a genuine TDA1541A
I want that piano in my room.
Thanks again, gino
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The wm8740-1-2 are clearly in the same league and probably indistinguishable.
The suggestion for the arcam was simply that they're pretty well built, the analog output stage is very decent and they're sold for a fraction of their original price, especially when the transport is dead. If you already own a cambridge dac100 though, not sure I'd bother modding a cdp.
A word of warning: on this website, you'll find all kind of opinions. They are often expressed as general truths... when it comes to "subjective sound quality" they usually aren't. Abraxalito worries a lot about noise modulation in SD DACs... yet there is no commonly accepted evidence that it is indeed audible.
There is thus nothing puzzling about the disappearance of the tda1541 in commercial gear, beside the fact it's been discontinued for ages: it's complicated to use (external digital filter, multiple supplies, etc) and most people but a few audiophiles (without hard facts to justify that preference) don't consider it sounding any better than a pcm1794, an ak4399 or a wm8740. So why bother ?
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Hi and thanks a lot for the very valuable advice
Let me reply herebelow.
This is a good news indeed and actually i am not offended by the dac100 sound.
But i am really looking for something that could be definitive, even a kit if not smd of course.
I was impressed by the body of sound of the Grundig 7500 very much indeed. Often digital is flat, dry and shrinked ... a much prefer a meaty expanded sound and out of the speakers.
Ok message received and thanks a lot again.
May i ask you which would be a dac of your choice ?
I think i rate the ability to give a very nice 3D soundstage above all other things. Difficult that such a dac then sounds bad.
Thanks a lot again, gino
Let me reply herebelow.
This is a good news indeed and actually i am not offended by the dac100 sound.
But i am really looking for something that could be definitive, even a kit if not smd of course.
I was impressed by the body of sound of the Grundig 7500 very much indeed. Often digital is flat, dry and shrinked ... a much prefer a meaty expanded sound and out of the speakers.
Ok message received and thanks a lot again.
May i ask you which would be a dac of your choice ?
I think i rate the ability to give a very nice 3D soundstage above all other things. Difficult that such a dac then sounds bad.
Thanks a lot again, gino
I'm a bit embarassed to answer because in my experience the 3D soundstage is mostly influenced by the quality of the speakers (as long as the source is of decent quality and the amplification up to the task).
And anyway, I don't want to contest that there is a subjective aspect to this hobby. What I would suggest is to build a DAC with some modularity. The DAC section itself is often quite secondary in the price of a whole DAC. If you have a case, a power supply with 2X 0-5V and +/-12V, an USB to I2S receiver, it's no big deal to try two or three DAC modules and resell the one that doesn't work for you. You can try for exemple a "Curryman" vs the one Abraxalito suggested and make up your own mind.
And anyway, I don't want to contest that there is a subjective aspect to this hobby. What I would suggest is to build a DAC with some modularity. The DAC section itself is often quite secondary in the price of a whole DAC. If you have a case, a power supply with 2X 0-5V and +/-12V, an USB to I2S receiver, it's no big deal to try two or three DAC modules and resell the one that doesn't work for you. You can try for exemple a "Curryman" vs the one Abraxalito suggested and make up your own mind.
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My reason is simple - my CD player, with good CDs of course, sounds simply amazing so I assume the internal DAC is to my taste. If I could use it as an external DAC for audio tracks off my computer it would increase the usefulness of the CD player as I rarely buy CDs but do plan to buy more on-line. I have no expectations that YBA will ever release a service manual to me though.
DAT DAC
I tried something like that, by taking a Sony DAT-s DAC board with the TDA1541 and the SAA7220 with I2S input and connect it to a SPDIF to I2S converter ,from ebay. It worked fine. I'm one of the lucky ones who only can hear differences between discs, not so much between DAC-s. I made some measurements and they looking fine to.
I tried something like that, by taking a Sony DAT-s DAC board with the TDA1541 and the SAA7220 with I2S input and connect it to a SPDIF to I2S converter ,from ebay. It worked fine. I'm one of the lucky ones who only can hear differences between discs, not so much between DAC-s. I made some measurements and they looking fine to.
Attachments
I browsed the French forums a bit to gather more about the YBA players. From the picture, yours is a CD3, right ? The manufacturer is very secretive about what's inside, the dac are supposedly 18bits "custom modified". Doesn't help much...
One solution which could work if the internal protocol is I2S could be to use an I2S multiplexer fed from either the signal coming from the cdp drive board or from a digital receiver of your choice followed by a src4192. Clock the asrc from a local clock. That would allow choosing one or the other input.
I can't understand your question sorry. Which dac is what?
Because nowadays the audio marketplace is driven by a chip delivering certain numbers rather than a particular sound quality. Have you heard of 'Goodhart's Law' ?
It can't be 'commonly' since its out of production. Only boutique manufacturers are going to design it in.
About 3D soundstage - I get that independently of what speakers I'm using (always cheapo ones, under $100 a pair typically). Its a function of how low noise power supplies the designer has managed to achieve. When I put more capacitors on my TDA1387 DAC's power supply, the 3D soundstage gets more '3D' at lower frequencies. You might be able to achieve a 3D soundstage with the WM874x but it will take a lot of attention to detail on the supply noise. I noted one DIYer on here saying there's practically zero PSRR on that chip.
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Hi and thanks a lot for the very valuable advice.
I am studying the issue very seriously these days and what i am learning is actually that room acoustic and speakers are what influence more the soundstage rendition.
Unfortunately i cannot do anything with the room. I am renting and i cannot mod the listening room.
So i will focus on a pair of speakers known to be great at sound stage.
Thanks a lot again. I will look at them.
Kind regards, gino
Hi only to say that i agree 110 % with you sincerely.
There are many excellent cd players with broken mechanisms for almost nothing around these days.
But i understand know that is not an easy task.
Do you know maybe if YBA had a dac with the same design ?
I guess so.
Thanks a lot, gino
Hi and thanks a lot indeed for the very interesting advice.
Actually old dats are quite common on the market for very low price.
The best ones even with a broken transport can work as excellent DAC indeed.
May i ask you even if OT which exact model have you modded ?
I will open a new 3D to get some recommendations anyway.
Thanks a lot again for the very valuable advice.
I have not thought about dats ... good !
Kind regards, gino
Hi the one you hint at here ...
is it a project of yours or is it available as kit ?
So your point is that there is no enough demand for very top quality dac chips even from professionals ?
I am very badly surprised indeed. But i trust you of course.
Yes this is indeed what matters me most.
3D is the most beautiful effect i can get from a stereo system.
I hate bidimensional sound.
I record your very important advice on PS quality with which i agree completely.
It is not the first time that a better PS or a better quality of mains voltage can improve the sound of a unit greatly.
Very interesting.
But this idea to look at vintage dac is too good to be left overlooked.
I will study it carefully.
Thanks and regards, gino
You can order it up as a kit or finished, boxed DAC. The link's on my blog - but they're quoting quite a long lead time it seems (at least 15days).
Yes, because in today's market 'top quality' means 'best numbers' rather than 'best sound'. As 00940 says the prevailing view in the industry is the same as his - that numbers (THD+N, bits) are enough to say whether a DAC's decent or not and people's listening impressions don't really matter because they're just subjective opinions.
It's a bit (very) unfair to the industry. The manufacturers do test their products for sound quality and recording engineers buy equipment also by doing listening evaluations. So I'd rather say that the prevailing view is that the good numbers are not achieved at the detriment of good sound and this view is based on listening tests.abraxalito said:
An interesting anecdote: when TI engineers developped the pcm2702, they presented it for evaluation, with good thd numbers. It was rejected by a listening panel (there were real problems with it) and the engineers sent back to the drawing board.
Do tell us some more about how chip manufacturers test their products for sound quality. I'm aware that recording engineers listen to kit before they buy and I'm also aware that ESS went to great lengths to listen to their 'Sabre' DAC and correct for listening artifacts that were noticed in the development process. But I've not heard any similar stories from other manufacturers and indeed quite the opposite story was told by Thorsten Loesch about Cirrus Logic when he chatted to one of their engineers who he happened to meet in Beijing.
What would you say this view is based on, experimentally?
What did they find wrong with the sound?
- If you search the forum, you'll find a thread about the listening tests made by national semi in the development of their last generation of opamps. National Semi had a pair of Watt Puppy and a pair of B&W 802D in house for such evaluation btw.
- If you open the opa604 datasheet, you'll find a section dedicated to sound quality. You can also read the AN-1490 from TI, about the lm4702. They detail how they polished the design through critical listening tests, to establish the best sounding bias point and the best parts. This again shows how listening tests for best sound quality are part of the development process at a major manufacturer.
- The anecdote about TI isn't so much about what was wrong (google the article about the development of the pcm2702 for details, it's easy to find) than about the fact that they did submit the product to a listening panel.
- If you open the opa604 datasheet, you'll find a section dedicated to sound quality. You can also read the AN-1490 from TI, about the lm4702. They detail how they polished the design through critical listening tests, to establish the best sounding bias point and the best parts. This again shows how listening tests for best sound quality are part of the development process at a major manufacturer.
- The anecdote about TI isn't so much about what was wrong (google the article about the development of the pcm2702 for details, it's easy to find) than about the fact that they did submit the product to a listening panel.
While I'm at it, a quote from AKM's website:
At AKM, there is a listening room setup with industry leading components so we can truly evaluate our latest audio devices sonic qualities. This allows AKM to fully evaluate our audio devices beyond the traditional audio test equipment used on the bench. AKMs audio Meister is repeating sound quality evaluation of the test chips and feeding the results directly back to the circuit designers. This direct relationship and feedback is constantly advancing AKMs audio technology always pursuing better sound quality. This listening room is also utilized to evaluate various digital formats to allow AKM to optimize our devices for every digital audio standard in the industry.
At AKM, there is a listening room setup with industry leading components so we can truly evaluate our latest audio devices sonic qualities. This allows AKM to fully evaluate our audio devices beyond the traditional audio test equipment used on the bench. AKMs audio Meister is repeating sound quality evaluation of the test chips and feeding the results directly back to the circuit designers. This direct relationship and feedback is constantly advancing AKMs audio technology always pursuing better sound quality. This listening room is also utilized to evaluate various digital formats to allow AKM to optimize our devices for every digital audio standard in the industry.