"But science doesn't know everything", so we should take subjective impressions as the highest authority and reference. If the earth looks flat to the eye, who are you to say it isn't? Shouldn't our senses be the final arbiter? Or are you one of those misdirected disciples of that heretic Galilei from Pisa?
marce and julf regurgitate the engineering textbook in threads they have no interest in.
I know julf does not use the sdtrans and I bet neither does marce so one wonders why they have taken it upon themselves to guard the little people from the scary bad advice based upon observation of not just myself but of others. They are the self appointed Illuminati of the known. Please do not try anything different from the accepted norm. You might learn something and who knows what kind of trouble that would lead to!
They will huff and puff like the big bad wolf and the ported loudspeakers they likely listen to.
It is so tiring.
They are the ones who have not fully considered what is going on with power delivery into a digital circuit playing music. We are not talking about data streams where lots of error correction allows them to work just fine.
Digital audio is analogue in as many ways as it is digital and one should think through things considering both realms.
The power leads to the devices from the batteries is as short as it can be. The chance of excessive inductance is negligible.
If one finds the sound of an infinite feedback series reg with a ceramic cap following (since they won't work without one doesn't mean they are necessary for the circuit - the cap is there for the regulator but they do not seem to understand this) then enjoy it! Just think of the money (and time) you will be able to save sticking with the tried and true, the dead reliable products made for the mass of consumers.
But there are others who are not satisfied with this.
I am old enough to remember many versions of this tired belittling. And after awhile, as if by magic, these "crazy" thoughts become mainstream.
Let's see there was NO WAY tubes could sound as good as the transistor, then there was the cables "wire is wire" - then there was the capacitor - which continues to this day for those that do not want to spend the money for a good capacitor, which carries over to resistors, too, and on and on. Not to say there isn't plenty of nonsense in the world of audio. There are plenty of expensive capacitors that do not sound much better than the run of the mill but that does not mean the run of the mill cap sounds like a Vcap.
Don't forget to include signal transformers in the list of things that CANNOT sound good because ... just think of the possibilities!
So marce, what would you recommend for the best power supply for the SDTrans? Plus, I need to know: did they really fill the four thousand holes?
I know julf does not use the sdtrans and I bet neither does marce so one wonders why they have taken it upon themselves to guard the little people from the scary bad advice based upon observation of not just myself but of others. They are the self appointed Illuminati of the known. Please do not try anything different from the accepted norm. You might learn something and who knows what kind of trouble that would lead to!
They will huff and puff like the big bad wolf and the ported loudspeakers they likely listen to.
It is so tiring.
They are the ones who have not fully considered what is going on with power delivery into a digital circuit playing music. We are not talking about data streams where lots of error correction allows them to work just fine.
Digital audio is analogue in as many ways as it is digital and one should think through things considering both realms.
The power leads to the devices from the batteries is as short as it can be. The chance of excessive inductance is negligible.
If one finds the sound of an infinite feedback series reg with a ceramic cap following (since they won't work without one doesn't mean they are necessary for the circuit - the cap is there for the regulator but they do not seem to understand this) then enjoy it! Just think of the money (and time) you will be able to save sticking with the tried and true, the dead reliable products made for the mass of consumers.
But there are others who are not satisfied with this.
I am old enough to remember many versions of this tired belittling. And after awhile, as if by magic, these "crazy" thoughts become mainstream.
Let's see there was NO WAY tubes could sound as good as the transistor, then there was the cables "wire is wire" - then there was the capacitor - which continues to this day for those that do not want to spend the money for a good capacitor, which carries over to resistors, too, and on and on. Not to say there isn't plenty of nonsense in the world of audio. There are plenty of expensive capacitors that do not sound much better than the run of the mill but that does not mean the run of the mill cap sounds like a Vcap.
Don't forget to include signal transformers in the list of things that CANNOT sound good because ... just think of the possibilities!
So marce, what would you recommend for the best power supply for the SDTrans? Plus, I need to know: did they really fill the four thousand holes?
I think that is called an "ad hominem attack", popular among people who have the facts against them.
If you actually want to learn something you should question things instead of blindly believing your own dogma.
Of the 14 or so loudspeakers in my house, maybe 2 are ported, but who cares about reality - it is your perception that is the truth.
What would I know - I have only worked with the stuff for something like 35 years since studying it at university...
There is no such thing as infinite feedback, except among the inventors of perpetual motion devices - seems you are one of them.
No, they don't, unless supported by evidence.
Ever heard the phrase "straw man argument"?
I do notice you seem to avoid answering any of my actual questions.
So, again, how can the capacitors that are in parallel, not series, with the battery, affect the functioning of the battery? And does a badly regulated, unstable supply (referring to your "No electrolytic can let go of its charge as fast as one of these batteries" - how is "letting go of charge" a good thing?).
BTW, I love your unorthodox terminology - I am visualizing Maxwell's demon holding on to the charge for dear life.
I don't know why I bother but in response:
Fourteen loudspeakers in your house? Where do you sit or sleep? What does one need fourteen loudspeakers for? I have one set of loudspeakers I have been working on for over a decade. I remember when one of the manufacturers, maybe LINN, told their dealers to use only one set of loudspeakers in the audition room. This was good advice. Either you have a house of unusual size or those fourteen loudspeakers are interacting throughout your house. A passive radiator in every room (or so).
What ideas have you expressed? I have nothing else to talk about other than you. You have admitted you have no experience with the device in question so where does one go with this other than a rather mild ad hominen?
I have no interest in dismissing yours or anyone's work experience but I would have to ask is your work experience involved in audio pursuits? I think audio is a distinct discipline from general digital applications. How many great audio amplifiers have been designed by fellows who design amplifiers for radio transmission? Can't think of a one? Well, there was John Iverson who made an amplifier for sonar, or something like that, that turned out ot be a good audio amplifier. This was many years ago and the amp casued a stir since it sounded very good. But neither he or the amplifier was around for very long and he and the amplifier were an anomaly in the best sense of the word.
Just knowing how to do something within the vast world of electronics does not translate into expertise with the tiny specialized world of high quality audio. I know lots about fabrics used in houses but would never give an opinion on a fabric used to sheath an airplane or a building. I know nothing about that aspect and have no need to know.
Supported by evidence? Just what kind of evidence do you need since you will not produce the evidence for yourself and we are not talking about "off the shelf" products. You do realize that is the definition of a circular "argument?
What questions are you asking? I have never been able to figure out what is the question and what is the baiting comment. ASif it matters within a thread about a specific product you do not own nor have any interest in owning and tinkering with.
AND lastly - look up the definition of dielectric absorption.
Fourteen loudspeakers in your house? Where do you sit or sleep? What does one need fourteen loudspeakers for? I have one set of loudspeakers I have been working on for over a decade. I remember when one of the manufacturers, maybe LINN, told their dealers to use only one set of loudspeakers in the audition room. This was good advice. Either you have a house of unusual size or those fourteen loudspeakers are interacting throughout your house. A passive radiator in every room (or so).
What ideas have you expressed? I have nothing else to talk about other than you. You have admitted you have no experience with the device in question so where does one go with this other than a rather mild ad hominen?
I have no interest in dismissing yours or anyone's work experience but I would have to ask is your work experience involved in audio pursuits? I think audio is a distinct discipline from general digital applications. How many great audio amplifiers have been designed by fellows who design amplifiers for radio transmission? Can't think of a one? Well, there was John Iverson who made an amplifier for sonar, or something like that, that turned out ot be a good audio amplifier. This was many years ago and the amp casued a stir since it sounded very good. But neither he or the amplifier was around for very long and he and the amplifier were an anomaly in the best sense of the word.
Just knowing how to do something within the vast world of electronics does not translate into expertise with the tiny specialized world of high quality audio. I know lots about fabrics used in houses but would never give an opinion on a fabric used to sheath an airplane or a building. I know nothing about that aspect and have no need to know.
Supported by evidence? Just what kind of evidence do you need since you will not produce the evidence for yourself and we are not talking about "off the shelf" products. You do realize that is the definition of a circular "argument?
What questions are you asking? I have never been able to figure out what is the question and what is the baiting comment. ASif it matters within a thread about a specific product you do not own nor have any interest in owning and tinkering with.
AND lastly - look up the definition of dielectric absorption.
Neither do I. Why do you?
5 floors, first floor has kitchen, living room and office well isolated from each other. Garage and workshop.
You are making a lot of assumptions without any facts.
Simple answer - yes.
I actually studied electrical engineering, computer science *and* music. As part of my career, I have been part of sorting out the broadcasting of some of the first music events to be broadcast over IP, apart from a lot of work with analog audio.
So what are *your* qualifications?
Because audio is so much harder than transmitting a microwave signal to a spacecraft going outside our solar system or transmitting gigabits per second through a fiber optic cable to another continent?
But how much do you know about electronics, digital systems or information theory?
I thought that was pretty clear, but let me repeat:
julf said:
So how does 2+2=4 depend on what car(s) I happen to own?
No need to look it up - I am rather familiar with it. Please explain how it is relevant to the case at hand (being fed by a more-or-less constant DC source)? Have you actually looked up the definition?
Well, You certainly live in a big house.
No, I remove the capacitors since I am trying to make the board as light as possible to improve the lap times. The SDTrans was getting beat by some modified SONY DVD player in the ESSES at ROAD ATLANTA and then I realized what I had to do. Have not had a chance for a rematch but I feel confident it will not be a contest this time.
If not, I guess I will have to remove the SD card reader since it is the heaviest part on the board. Won't be any good for audio but, who cares?, there are more important things than audio!
Judging by the sound quality of much of what is available for audio and the rather routine ability to transmit microwave signals I would say there is no question the latter item is much easier to get right.
No, I remove the capacitors since I am trying to make the board as light as possible to improve the lap times. The SDTrans was getting beat by some modified SONY DVD player in the ESSES at ROAD ATLANTA and then I realized what I had to do. Have not had a chance for a rematch but I feel confident it will not be a contest this time.
If not, I guess I will have to remove the SD card reader since it is the heaviest part on the board. Won't be any good for audio but, who cares?, there are more important things than audio!
Judging by the sound quality of much of what is available for audio and the rather routine ability to transmit microwave signals I would say there is no question the latter item is much easier to get right.
Indeed, it is much easier to transmit microwave signals, because the results are judged by objective criteria. Likewise audio would be almost trivial if it would suffice to simply produce neutral, transparent electronics (speakers and rooms are a different issue). Unfortunately there are too many people out there who believe their personal preferences are an absolute reference for everybody.
Because of this:
Seems you make a judgment about "much of what is available for audio" purely based on your subjective impression.
And I comment on things based on evidence and facts as opposed to subjective impressions or faith.
That has to be about the silliest comment I have ever read.
I admit defeat. I cannot compete with you in the arena of nonsense.
Have you ever considered a study of semiotics? Your cavalier approach to "evidence" tells me you have a simplistic idea of what evidence is. Talk about thinking your own view defines the world.
And with this I have had my fill until you actually purchase an SDTrans and can make comments based upon reality and not your desire to while away the hours on a thread you have no sincere interest in.
This will not get any sillier with my assistance.
I admit defeat. I cannot compete with you in the arena of nonsense.
Have you ever considered a study of semiotics? Your cavalier approach to "evidence" tells me you have a simplistic idea of what evidence is. Talk about thinking your own view defines the world.
And with this I have had my fill until you actually purchase an SDTrans and can make comments based upon reality and not your desire to while away the hours on a thread you have no sincere interest in.
This will not get any sillier with my assistance.
I have commented many times on power delivery systems, layout advice etc.
Your rants are unfounded... Your advise is bad and misguided, I would suggest you look at the wealth of data regarding decoupling and power delivery systems... I do this for a job day in day out, those boring old ways of doing things are done because they work, there is years of testing and development behind the metholodgy.
I do have an interest in this thread, I have as much right as anyone else to comment especially when bad advice is been given, as said some study on your part would be of benefit... my views on this subject come from over 30 years experience of doing layouts that are noise free, have maximum signal integrity and are EMC compliant, its not just text book theory in my case its hands on experience and learning...
Oh digital audio is digital, the same rules apply to the signal transmission as they do for DDR memory interfaces, USB, Ethernet etc.
You mention lead length, why do you think the best local decoupling cap is the smallest package available, next to the device pins...
You mention we havn't considered what is going on with the power delivery system, of course we have in many more critical digital/analogue circuitry also including audio (pro gear)... Do you understand the chain of current delivery when a digital device switches... because you totally dismiss standard well studies ways of doing decoupling!
You mention lead length, why do you think the best local decoupling cap is the smallest package available, next to the device pins...
You mention we havn't considered what is going on with the power delivery system, of course we have in many more critical digital/analogue circuitry also including audio (pro gear)... Do you understand the chain of current delivery when a digital device switches... because you totally dismiss standard well studies ways of doing decoupling!
Well, merce,
Nothing like giving advice on a device you have never used.
I do not work in the electronics industry. I doubt you work in the audio electronics industry. AS if that makes any difference in a DIY forum ...
I am sure what you prescribe is what is required for day to day use in a field where any downtime is something that must be avoided. For that reason your methods are coming from a very different perspective. I have made no comments regarding your work product. I must admit I am not aware of any of your audio stuff. You very well have come up with something that sounds good versus something that works. There is a difference.
I have been working on my current system for almost twenty years while trying to learn from people who have worked with the same gear as mine. I would never tell someone to do something on a piece of gear I was not familiar with and actually using. Your assumption of one size fits all is not very useful.
You fellows are never willing to try anything but what you have done a thousand times before. It is amazing we get anywhere at all with such a mindset.
I know nothing about the gear you use. I have no idea if you even listen to music. I know nothing about you. I suspect you can say the same things about me and I would not mind it staying that way.
I listen to my system every day. I do not watch TV, music is important to me and I have to believe if I was doing something that made my gear unlistenable I must be a masochist.
One of these days one of you engineers will try something like the battery scheme I am using. I did not come up with the scheme so I have no ownership/ego involved. It is the work of jkeny and was further developed by nige2000. There are more than a few folks who have tried this and have found it to work very well.
So instead of the endless repetition of what works in the communication industry it would be interesting if one of you tried it. And then with your myriad measurement devices, and please include your ears since that is what we are trying to placate, you could then discover for yourself that something is happening and if you are especially clever you might find out why something is happening which would be a great service to audio.
So, as usual, when asked what is a good way to approach the supply for the SDTrans you basically say the same old one size fits all scheme.
One of these days, if you listen carefully, you will hear what a ceramic cap does to the sound of any component, even digital ones. You , then, might want to find a way to power the digital component in such a way as the need for this bypass cap is no longer needed.
Do you listen for polarity inversion with the recordings you play? Can you hear the effect? If not, I can understand you thinking all of this is nonsense. But that is a quick way to figure out how far along one is with their system and their hearing acuity.
I am sixty one years old and have owned a decent music system since I was fifteen years old. I know that one simply cannot buy a few boxes and wire them up indiscriminately and hear good sound. It takes lots of time and experimentation to get something that sounds even a little like music. Many are much easier to please than I am.
What you do for a living, whatever that may be exactly, is much easier to do than to achieve good sound in one's home. If you find that not to be the case then I am glad I do not have to listen to what you listen to. But if you are happy with it then that is all that matters.
Hoping we can return the discussion to the SDTrans .
Nothing like giving advice on a device you have never used.
I do not work in the electronics industry. I doubt you work in the audio electronics industry. AS if that makes any difference in a DIY forum ...
I am sure what you prescribe is what is required for day to day use in a field where any downtime is something that must be avoided. For that reason your methods are coming from a very different perspective. I have made no comments regarding your work product. I must admit I am not aware of any of your audio stuff. You very well have come up with something that sounds good versus something that works. There is a difference.
I have been working on my current system for almost twenty years while trying to learn from people who have worked with the same gear as mine. I would never tell someone to do something on a piece of gear I was not familiar with and actually using. Your assumption of one size fits all is not very useful.
You fellows are never willing to try anything but what you have done a thousand times before. It is amazing we get anywhere at all with such a mindset.
I know nothing about the gear you use. I have no idea if you even listen to music. I know nothing about you. I suspect you can say the same things about me and I would not mind it staying that way.
I listen to my system every day. I do not watch TV, music is important to me and I have to believe if I was doing something that made my gear unlistenable I must be a masochist.
One of these days one of you engineers will try something like the battery scheme I am using. I did not come up with the scheme so I have no ownership/ego involved. It is the work of jkeny and was further developed by nige2000. There are more than a few folks who have tried this and have found it to work very well.
So instead of the endless repetition of what works in the communication industry it would be interesting if one of you tried it. And then with your myriad measurement devices, and please include your ears since that is what we are trying to placate, you could then discover for yourself that something is happening and if you are especially clever you might find out why something is happening which would be a great service to audio.
So, as usual, when asked what is a good way to approach the supply for the SDTrans you basically say the same old one size fits all scheme.
One of these days, if you listen carefully, you will hear what a ceramic cap does to the sound of any component, even digital ones. You , then, might want to find a way to power the digital component in such a way as the need for this bypass cap is no longer needed.
Do you listen for polarity inversion with the recordings you play? Can you hear the effect? If not, I can understand you thinking all of this is nonsense. But that is a quick way to figure out how far along one is with their system and their hearing acuity.
I am sixty one years old and have owned a decent music system since I was fifteen years old. I know that one simply cannot buy a few boxes and wire them up indiscriminately and hear good sound. It takes lots of time and experimentation to get something that sounds even a little like music. Many are much easier to please than I am.
What you do for a living, whatever that may be exactly, is much easier to do than to achieve good sound in one's home. If you find that not to be the case then I am glad I do not have to listen to what you listen to. But if you are happy with it then that is all that matters.
Hoping we can return the discussion to the SDTrans .
LOL, do layout for professional gear, I have done work on many communications projects such as AN-VIS5 where I was responsible for the PCBs, never mind the other stuff I do... I talk to other PCB designers many who also do professional audio gear and quite often do consultation on aspects of layout that are critical to signal integrity... As well as working on some fun designs often cutting edge, also done many SD card readers, PSUs etc. so unlike you I do know what I am talking about.
All of which is relevant because despite your urge to be a Audio guru and your belief that audio electronics is some sort of magic area, audio electronics is no different than any other area of electronics, on the digital side it is actually quite tame and not really taxing at all, but keep up the patronisation.
I made a relevant comment that removing local decoupling and reservoir caps from a digital based layout is not a good idea, in fact it is TOTTALLY STUPID, instead of piling in with all the rubbish you have posted go away and learn, though I doubt you will since you are so sure of yourself, ignore all the previous research, development and knowledge that has been gained over the years and keep on proving your ignorance...
Wow that sentence says so much about the level of knowledge you are bringing to the discussion...I know how to power digital ICs (and analogue for that matter) and using a ceramic (X7R are a good choice) small local decoupling capacitor is critical to the power deliver system, if you put decoupling into Google you will get lots of information, read it then come back with some sensible comments. I have empirical data regarding there use and the fact that in decoupling situations they have NO effect on the sound..... Provide some evidence that they do....
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LOL high end PCB layout and consultation on PCB layout... even got a CID+ qualification for it...
LOL LOL 55 years old, Mother was a trombonist with Ivy Bensons band, so piano from 4, trombone from 8, bass guitar from 13, had a system since I was 11 and I can see that the emperor is actually naked.... Oh and had numerous systems over the years but obviously not one of the GEB as I cant hear cables or caps or a difference between silver cables and copper, poor me, having to listen to sub standard sound on my substandard system.....
Audio guru?
The only things I post about are the three things I use:
The SOEKRIS DAM DAC
THE SDTrans
The SALAS PHONO STAGE
One would think a guru would be far more wide-ranging than that.
I do not remember telling anyone they MUST do this or be unhappy for the rest of their lives. I have not posted telling someone they SHOULD NOT try a supply idea I did not approve of. I have to think you have me confused with someone else.
You are more of the guru type since you have an opinion on what is best for things you are not familiar with.
I write about what I have done with credit given to who inspired it. I am not creative, either. I follow what I think is good advice in hopes of getting closer to good sound
AS I said before, since you have narrowed your focus down to what you do, professional gear and by this I assume you are speaking of either studio or performance gear; these have very different requirements than home DIY gear. Needless to say the things I have found to work would not be practical in the applications you are involved in.
Nevertheless, are you saying you would use these same components to listen at home?
Looked at your profile and see that you have seven children and I must tell you, even if we disagree on audio subjects, I have nothing but the utmost respect and admiration for a man who has raised seven children. I would say the world is in your debt for that contribution to society.
So we disagree on audio power supplies? Big deal.
Take care,
The only things I post about are the three things I use:
The SOEKRIS DAM DAC
THE SDTrans
The SALAS PHONO STAGE
One would think a guru would be far more wide-ranging than that.
I do not remember telling anyone they MUST do this or be unhappy for the rest of their lives. I have not posted telling someone they SHOULD NOT try a supply idea I did not approve of. I have to think you have me confused with someone else.
You are more of the guru type since you have an opinion on what is best for things you are not familiar with.
I write about what I have done with credit given to who inspired it. I am not creative, either. I follow what I think is good advice in hopes of getting closer to good sound
AS I said before, since you have narrowed your focus down to what you do, professional gear and by this I assume you are speaking of either studio or performance gear; these have very different requirements than home DIY gear. Needless to say the things I have found to work would not be practical in the applications you are involved in.
Nevertheless, are you saying you would use these same components to listen at home?
Looked at your profile and see that you have seven children and I must tell you, even if we disagree on audio subjects, I have nothing but the utmost respect and admiration for a man who has raised seven children. I would say the world is in your debt for that contribution to society.
So we disagree on audio power supplies? Big deal.
Take care,
So if a car design engineer tells you not to mix different types of antifreeze in your engine, would you disregard the advice if the engineer hasn't driven the specific model of car you have?
I just can't resist.
Well, if the "car engineer" was the guy in charge of door locks I would dismiss his concerns.
I would usually look for more than one opinion before making a decision on something I know nothing about.
If it was something I knew something about and the opinion given agreed with what I knew I would, as would most, figure the advice was sound.
I would never mix brands of any fluid in a car. That is never a good idea.
Well, if the "car engineer" was the guy in charge of door locks I would dismiss his concerns.
I would usually look for more than one opinion before making a decision on something I know nothing about.
If it was something I knew something about and the opinion given agreed with what I knew I would, as would most, figure the advice was sound.
I would never mix brands of any fluid in a car. That is never a good idea.
Funnily I advise people like Cobham, BAE, NG, NGNPP and many others, it is a field I do have a lot of experience in... It is the local decouplers and there removal we disagree about....
Yep 7 Kids, which is why I am sat in a hotel in Poole working on site doing layout, try and recover some money, though now the majority have left home it has got more expensive, its not a bar of chocolate these days they just get more expensive
Peace.
@marce
To help establish a reference point and to understand better each others preferences and consequently points we are making here, could you please share what system you are listening to and what type of music you prefer.
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