Now you are moving on to price, but still no reference to measurements.
At the end you don't use measurements as a choice parameter at all.
Which is the opposite of what you said.
is what you do waste time only bla bla
Invitation accepted.
It's me who waste time with those who claims something but then do not know what he is talking about.
@andrea_mori,
there is no need to fight over this stuff.
I (or we) should be able to accept that others do not share the same experiences (or believes) about the differences between amps/dacs whatsoever.
Interindividual differences are quite profound and especially wrt to listening or perception in general.
We have done a lot of controlled listening tests over the years and I have first hand experience with humans who are extremely keen listeners but were not the least interested in sound quality.
If someone like billshurv doesn't rate differences between dacs as important enough to care about, than it is just like it is - an absolutely acceptable point of view.
there is no need to fight over this stuff.
I (or we) should be able to accept that others do not share the same experiences (or believes) about the differences between amps/dacs whatsoever.
Interindividual differences are quite profound and especially wrt to listening or perception in general.
We have done a lot of controlled listening tests over the years and I have first hand experience with humans who are extremely keen listeners but were not the least interested in sound quality.
If someone like billshurv doesn't rate differences between dacs as important enough to care about, than it is just like it is - an absolutely acceptable point of view.
I waited only because you posted, "In the meantime I look for the amps measurements.". Once you do, I will start a separate thread and post my reply.
That's an important point and a simple one but somehow it just won't get through some people. Then there are those who try to dispute it for their business interest.
Every opinion is acceptable.
What is not acceptable is to claim something and immediately afterwards the opposite.
Merely because he does not know what he is talking about.
If someone claims using the measurements to define the sound quality of a device then he should be able to explain what measures he uses and how he uses them for the purpose.
And it's not a problem related the the relevance of the DAC in the audio chain, I could move to the speaker drivers and the results will be the same.
No technical explanations.
Wow, we now have another claiming the irrelevance of the DAC in the audio chain.
And the curious thing is that this thread is just about DACs.
Fantastic!
So we want to talk about amplifier or speaker measurements?
Waste of time, the same results.
You don't know what mean the measurements you are pointing out.
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Do you guys notice at all that you are seriously abusing this thread? Anybody searching for info about the akm4499 and it's implementation details in the future will have to wade through all this off topic stuff. No fun at all.
And I'm talking to all of you, at least those who have contributed to the last 100 posts, or even more.
And I'm talking to all of you, at least those who have contributed to the last 100 posts, or even more.
That could be viewed as both ignorant and offensive. I'll assume you didn't intend offense.
So the Gang of (more than) Four is right: your audio system sucks, that's why you don't hear any fine changes like the clock phase noise @-150dB. You are either too poor (or not stupid enough) to upgrade to the Audio Nirvana, therefore everything you say can be dismissed on these grounds.
Happens that the impact of the clock jitter on the analog output SNR can be calculated mathematically (and measured precisely, since the SNR is an easy metric). -140dB phase noise translates to a jitter of about 0.5pS (considering the 3 segment phase noise model, for phase noise integration, and a 48KHz sampling frequency), which in turn leads to a maximun SNR degradation of -170dB. 10pS RMS jitter (which is huge according to the Golden Ears) leads to a SNR degradation of -144dB.
These are for wideband jitter; for close-in jitter, one may want to follow https://www.by-rutgers.nl/PDFiles/clock_jitter_spec-1.pdf and note that the problem is at best ambiguous; it is not immediate where the threshold between the close-in SNR degradation and the signal sidebands is. But one way or another, the problem is one of the noise power distribution (uniform beyond the cormer freaquency, up to the sampling frequency, or in an unknown bandwidth around the signal). Therefore, until somebody comes up with some serious data (anecdotic reports are not acceptable) of how much close-in noise is audible, I would think that, for audio purposes, wideband and close-in SNR degradation are equivalent. Again the "extraordinary claim requires extraordinary proof" principle applies.
Now I am waiting somebody to tell me how a "crappy" 10pS jitter clock and it's -144dB SNR degradation is something that would affect the DAC user experience.
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Given that I have nothing to prove and I am not even interested in proving anything, "what would you think" does not make audio history.
So when you write "for audio purposes, wideband and close-in SNR degradation are equivalent" you express your personal opinion, but if you wanted to prove something you didn't prove anything, you just speculated.
But since you linked a document on Herbert Rutgers' website, I must say that you haven't even studied well.
From the linked document:
"One would find, however, that a good quality clock oscillator will stretch even the best analyser beyond its limits."
"Integration at n=0 poses a question: jitter of even the best oscillators becomes large at very low frequencies (“close in”). When should we count the sidebands as “noise” and when is it part of the “legitimate” signal?
Where does the carrier end and where does jitter begin?
The question is nearly a philosophical one that only listening tests can settle. For now, we should content ourselves with the measurement capability of the analyser, ie. the width of the notch placed at fmax."
And Herbert Rutgers, the owner of the website, write:
"Since a number of years Henk ten Pierick became aware of the influence of 'jitter' on the clock oscillator in digital equipment, particularly with AD- and DA-conversion. He has found that a few ps (pico seconds) could already be of great influence on the sound. Bit by bit arises the idea that the noise components close to the carrier (within 10 Hz or so) do the harm, so that I returned to the measurements in the frequency domain."
"Equipment in digital audio installations will be provided with an XO. Eg. a CD-player is controlled by a Xtal oscillator. This oscillator must directly control the clock-input of the DAC (preferably a PCM1792). From many listening sessions became apparent that the close in noise (0.1 - 10 Hz from the carrier) is responsible for the audio quality: the intelligibility, brightness of the sound and the image of the soundstage.
Phase noise at >100 Hz from the carrier affects the audio signal to noise (S/N) ratio."
So no "extraordinary claim" from me, maybe from others (although I agree with them).
Then I cannot prove anything (and I have no interest in proving anything) the same you cannot prove anything.
Except Herbert Rutgers thinks like me and not like you.
Finally, you can use your FFT analyzer to measure THD or TID but certainly not the effect of jitter at the DAC output, since its time base could be worse than a "crappy" 10pS jitter clock.
Sorry, at this point I need to quote you from a few posts above:
"It's me who waste time with those who claims something but then do not know what he is talking about".
Next time try to understand what it is told and quoted, in particular numbers; when everything fails, you can always ask for help, usually a good soul will always try to educate you, although:
"It's me who waste time with those who claims something but then do not know what he is talking about".
Next time try to understand what it is told and quoted, in particular numbers; when everything fails, you can always ask for help, usually a good soul will always try to educate you, although:
Upton Sinclair said: