What does this thing actually do beyond add a ton of capacitance to the supply line? It appears to use a Mosfet to disconnect the supply side when turned off to protect the caps. I only ask because it looks very expensive and that is without the caps. In the photo of the bare power supply (unspecified type), a 1/2 A switched load is somewhat unrealistic. One wonders exactly what real world benefits are to a properly designed device running off USB 5V power.
The lack of a schematic in the download is suspicious as heck as well.
-Chris
The lack of a schematic in the download is suspicious as heck as well.
-Chris
You're correct re a ton of caps and a Mosfet disconnect. The idea for UcConditioner to safely charge some high capacitance ultra caps or LiFePO4 battery. Then disconnect the charge side so that the UC will power your device, typically a RPi based digital converter or DAC which may draw in excess of 0.5A. This concept is used in several commercial products and DIY projects, including Uptone's LPS-1.2.
Advantages include isolation from mains pollution, very low supply impedance, instantaneous current ramp, fast dynamic response and extreme low ESR, Ultra caps are also good at eliminating pink noise which a typical voltage regulator is not so good at doing.
Folks have reported good gain in SQ, for relatively low cost, and an attractive enhancement to your typical 3.3V or 5V PSU.
Denis
Advantages include isolation from mains pollution, very low supply impedance, instantaneous current ramp, fast dynamic response and extreme low ESR, Ultra caps are also good at eliminating pink noise which a typical voltage regulator is not so good at doing.
Folks have reported good gain in SQ, for relatively low cost, and an attractive enhancement to your typical 3.3V or 5V PSU.
Denis
Haha. I still say "most people couldn't tell the difference between a fancy interconnect and barbed wire"... and I can almost prove it. I have amplifiers wired up that will work on single wire with PE ground as return with no noticeable noise increase from normal RCA connections.
The mentioning of a "cable" thread made me think of it.
The mentioning of a "cable" thread made me think of it.
Yes, let's not go down that path as far as wires and interconnects go.
With regard to the supercap thing. Wouldn't you be much further ahead building a better 5VDC supply to begin with? That thing is intended to make a cheap, crappy supply look like a better one. However if you spend similar money you can end up with a much better supply. Come to think of it, if you have a nice "whatever" device, why would you run it off a crappy supply anyway? That defies logic right out of the gate. Then, if you do have a good supply, the advertised device would have no measurable effect at all. IF I wanted to run a device off the power grid for some reason, you would be much further ahead using a 12 V lead acid battery, or whatever chemistry you desire, regulate it down to the 5V and you are now using standard cheaper batteries and a better regulator to begin with. There are good switchers out there, follow that with a linear regulator and you'll have lower noise than from a 5V battery.
Then consider what happens inside your device. I'm going to bet it has a switcher inside to generate the voltages it actually uses (if the device is of any quality at all). So you're right back to switching noise and the only place to improve it is inside your device. The entire purpose of a power supply is to isolate the circuits it supplies from the mean old outside world. That means that within reason, your raw power only has to be reasonably clean without dropouts. Food for thought.
With regard to the supercap thing. Wouldn't you be much further ahead building a better 5VDC supply to begin with? That thing is intended to make a cheap, crappy supply look like a better one. However if you spend similar money you can end up with a much better supply. Come to think of it, if you have a nice "whatever" device, why would you run it off a crappy supply anyway? That defies logic right out of the gate. Then, if you do have a good supply, the advertised device would have no measurable effect at all. IF I wanted to run a device off the power grid for some reason, you would be much further ahead using a 12 V lead acid battery, or whatever chemistry you desire, regulate it down to the 5V and you are now using standard cheaper batteries and a better regulator to begin with. There are good switchers out there, follow that with a linear regulator and you'll have lower noise than from a 5V battery.
Then consider what happens inside your device. I'm going to bet it has a switcher inside to generate the voltages it actually uses (if the device is of any quality at all). So you're right back to switching noise and the only place to improve it is inside your device. The entire purpose of a power supply is to isolate the circuits it supplies from the mean old outside world. That means that within reason, your raw power only has to be reasonably clean without dropouts. Food for thought.
OK, here we go. No
It is best used with the best possible power supply when feeding a digital circuit. That best possible power supply is a LiFeP04 battery supply that is mainly disconnected from any kind of supply, but when charged done with a good linear supply.
With the battery supply it will be very good. But you add supercaps to the battery, and sound improves (insert double blind/how did you measure it/and general insults here). You can simply add supercaps, but better to have a balancing circuit between 2x2.7v caps. Ian takes it a step further to keep the caps charged and if I'm not mistaken to remove them from the load so they stay charged and allow the load to be switched off. This approach generally works well around the FIFO reclocker circuit, the squarer circuit after the clock and in most cases around the digital circuits of the DAC. Surprisingly, also can be seen by some to improve the sound when powering the single board computer such as the RPi. Here you are likely not using a battery or a switching PS, but again a well built linear supply.
Of course it is like all the discussions where someone claims a subjective improvement in sound. They are entitled to their opinion, and to spend their money any way they want, and anyone who thinks it is horse pukky are also entitled to their opinion and to not spend money on supercaps. All good.
I played with this stuff without spending any money btw. You can see the effect with 15F caps even though advocates claim it gets better with 350F caps. In my business building wireless networks we used about 2m supercaps as UPS in wireless radios to allow graceful shutdown of networks in the event of a power failure. If you live in Brampton, Milton, Straford or Hydro One territory you have one on the side of your house. As a result I had a bunch lying around and tried them in various circuits around a DAC without any of the fancy stuff that Ian built. He took it to the extreme and even created power supplies that run purely on Supercaps.
It is best used with the best possible power supply when feeding a digital circuit. That best possible power supply is a LiFeP04 battery supply that is mainly disconnected from any kind of supply, but when charged done with a good linear supply.
With the battery supply it will be very good. But you add supercaps to the battery, and sound improves (insert double blind/how did you measure it/and general insults here). You can simply add supercaps, but better to have a balancing circuit between 2x2.7v caps. Ian takes it a step further to keep the caps charged and if I'm not mistaken to remove them from the load so they stay charged and allow the load to be switched off. This approach generally works well around the FIFO reclocker circuit, the squarer circuit after the clock and in most cases around the digital circuits of the DAC. Surprisingly, also can be seen by some to improve the sound when powering the single board computer such as the RPi. Here you are likely not using a battery or a switching PS, but again a well built linear supply.
Of course it is like all the discussions where someone claims a subjective improvement in sound. They are entitled to their opinion, and to spend their money any way they want, and anyone who thinks it is horse pukky are also entitled to their opinion and to not spend money on supercaps. All good.
I played with this stuff without spending any money btw. You can see the effect with 15F caps even though advocates claim it gets better with 350F caps. In my business building wireless networks we used about 2m supercaps as UPS in wireless radios to allow graceful shutdown of networks in the event of a power failure. If you live in Brampton, Milton, Straford or Hydro One territory you have one on the side of your house. As a result I had a bunch lying around and tried them in various circuits around a DAC without any of the fancy stuff that Ian built. He took it to the extreme and even created power supplies that run purely on Supercaps.
Well, I'm not about to insult anyone here, but the raw supply oscillograph shows an "regulated supply" reacting predictably to a switched load. One that has very little load regulation. So I can only assume they are representing a pretty poor supply to "fix" at relatively high cost while not improving regulation at all. Well designed power supplies work with as much noise as a battery or supercapacitor. That is simply a fact. Given the cost of that board - plus the cost of the super caps one could make a superior power supply and really deliver value to the consumer. It is that simple. Factually, an LM317 has far higher performance and I wouldn't call that technologically advanced. Hang a lead acid battery in front and charge that to 7.5 VDC or so and you're in business. Jan's "Silent Switcher" would allow a very efficient and quiet 12 VDC battery to be used. Any argument here?
There is no way on this earth that the design of a couple caps with a mosfet disconnect is worth anywhere near what they are charging. Honestly.
They are targeting audiophiles here, a popular target for over-priced "tech". That is what I observe and what I am seeing. The lack of a schematic simply proves how little technology is involved here. Heck, I figured it out without any info to speak of and little examination. I have no problem with offering a PCB minus the expensive parts having limited performance, just do it at a fair price. I am obviously in the wrong business!
There is no way on this earth that the design of a couple caps with a mosfet disconnect is worth anywhere near what they are charging. Honestly.
They are targeting audiophiles here, a popular target for over-priced "tech". That is what I observe and what I am seeing. The lack of a schematic simply proves how little technology is involved here. Heck, I figured it out without any info to speak of and little examination. I have no problem with offering a PCB minus the expensive parts having limited performance, just do it at a fair price. I am obviously in the wrong business!
Personally I do not use this device. I understand and have experienced what a supercap does in a digital circuit. It makes a small improvement in sound taking you another small step away from typical digital and more to a natural analogue sound. But the price of the board, the caps and the space that they use are to me just not worth the modest improvement delivered.
I use linear power supplies using traditional clc filtering 6th order with a lot of capacitors and discrete salas shunt regs. They work very well and deliver sound that is more than good enough. But is the sound better with a supercap? To my ear, in some applications it is.
They (Ian) is not targeting anyone IMHO. He is a hobbyist in audio like the rest of us. His day job is designing medical equipment.
I use linear power supplies using traditional clc filtering 6th order with a lot of capacitors and discrete salas shunt regs. They work very well and deliver sound that is more than good enough. But is the sound better with a supercap? To my ear, in some applications it is.
They (Ian) is not targeting anyone IMHO. He is a hobbyist in audio like the rest of us. His day job is designing medical equipment.
Is anyone interested in coming by to hear my amps and chill?
My place is small but i could have a few people by and we could listen to each others tunes, maybe watch an NBA playoff game on the 85 inch screen? And you could tell me what you think of my designs?
I'm near Yonge and Eglinton in Toronto.
My place is small but i could have a few people by and we could listen to each others tunes, maybe watch an NBA playoff game on the 85 inch screen? And you could tell me what you think of my designs?
I'm near Yonge and Eglinton in Toronto.
Thanks for the kind offer, kodabmx.
Young and Eglington was my happy home when I moved to Toronto in 75. Great spot. But I'm still not hanging out in closed places. Love to hear your stuff in the future as I have followed your posts with interest. I am with Chris on this one. Maybe in the future at a group mtg.
Young and Eglington was my happy home when I moved to Toronto in 75. Great spot. But I'm still not hanging out in closed places. Love to hear your stuff in the future as I have followed your posts with interest. I am with Chris on this one. Maybe in the future at a group mtg.
Btw, since I'm still a chicken about in person meets. Further to our discussion about supercaps in digital ps. I posted sound clips of before and after here if anyone is interested. Use head phones and maybe you can maybe just make it out. small impact but worth the effort.
cheers,
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/diy-tda1541a-pcb-d3.328060/page-59#post-7009659
cheers,
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/diy-tda1541a-pcb-d3.328060/page-59#post-7009659