Hi Lars
Yes, 'So my road map is to test different approaches, and sort out the good stuff from the bad, and then design a SMPS / PS that kicks ***', I know that you can produce the ultimate PS, as important as it is, but, remember you have had a good deal of support along the way?
Now, why could an SMPS be better than a traditional PS? We need to think along the lines of, amp ripple/noise (crucial), output impedance (crucial), current and voltage delivery (crucial).
Have I missed anything?
Yes, 'So my road map is to test different approaches, and sort out the good stuff from the bad, and then design a SMPS / PS that kicks ***', I know that you can produce the ultimate PS, as important as it is, but, remember you have had a good deal of support along the way?
Now, why could an SMPS be better than a traditional PS? We need to think along the lines of, amp ripple/noise (crucial), output impedance (crucial), current and voltage delivery (crucial).
Have I missed anything?
I haven't worked the electronics side of the audo for some time, but following this thread suddenly let me think about this again. If we look at amplifiers from a different point of view and consider it a "voltage controlled PS" as a whole where the controller is the signal from upstream, the PS should not just be independently considered, but integrated into the whole circuit. So in reality, different circuits really should have different PS designs to let the circuit perform the best.
Hi Lars
Yes, 'So my road map is to test different approaches, and sort out the good stuff from the bad, and then design a SMPS / PS that kicks ***', I know that you can produce the ultimate PS, as important as it is, but, remember you have had a good deal of support along the way?
Now, why could an SMPS be better than a traditional PS? We need to think along the lines of, amp ripple/noise (crucial), output impedance (crucial), current and voltage delivery (crucial).
Have I missed anything?
Yes, 'So my road map is to test different approaches, and sort out the good stuff from the bad, and then design a SMPS / PS that kicks ***', I know that you can produce the ultimate PS, as important as it is, but, remember you have had a good deal of support along the way?
Now, why could an SMPS be better than a traditional PS? We need to think along the lines of, amp ripple/noise (crucial), output impedance (crucial), current and voltage delivery (crucial).
Have I missed anything?
Hi,
My thoughts on SMPSs in audio are that they're actually more expensive to the customer, for which their only pro is that of reduced weight (a non issue for the home listener) and "maybe" size. From the perspective of mass production it becomes cheaper, but that's always been called a profit margin and not savings.
Now when I say a "good SMPS" I'm of course not looking at it from a mass production perspective, but as the end user who wants his moneys worth. That is, it'll have to be significantly better performing in every aspect than the standard unregulated raw DC supply in order to justify the additional cost.
Most also seem to agree the zap's sound good with nothing less than a 1000VA...that'll have to be one mean SMPS, not like the ice power stuff where they seem to be talking about PMPO for a certain length of time before it cooks. Idon't think a SPMS is the holy grail anyway and I agree with your original statement Lars. The "uber" SMPS implementation would no doubt do the job better but would it be worth paying for? Nah.
Lars, are you saying most people prefer a worst sound? I'm assuming the likes of T-networks (I plan on buying some soon.. today in fact) and slit foils, actually do improve the sound? Are they a gimmick or is the science behind them real?
You know the other day I had a friend listening to a new power supply I built .. he said "the old one was way louder".... I said "thanks".
Then he felt the new power of it.. Most people don't know what a good sound is, and thanks to the garbage that is consumer audio loud=obnoxious with ear bleeding distortion, this is what they know.
So what's your experience with the likes of T-networks and slit foils making other flaws in the system more apparent?
With an old car that's not worth upkeeping I don't mind masking out those ugly sounds by rolling the window down on the highway or cranking up the music but when it comes to an amp I'd rather address the issue than mask it by using cheaper parts. I don't see many around here who've tried T-networks anyway so I wanted an opinion on them.
Regards,
Chris
My thoughts on SMPSs in audio are that they're actually more expensive to the customer, for which their only pro is that of reduced weight (a non issue for the home listener) and "maybe" size. From the perspective of mass production it becomes cheaper, but that's always been called a profit margin and not savings.
Now when I say a "good SMPS" I'm of course not looking at it from a mass production perspective, but as the end user who wants his moneys worth. That is, it'll have to be significantly better performing in every aspect than the standard unregulated raw DC supply in order to justify the additional cost.
Most also seem to agree the zap's sound good with nothing less than a 1000VA...that'll have to be one mean SMPS, not like the ice power stuff where they seem to be talking about PMPO for a certain length of time before it cooks. Idon't think a SPMS is the holy grail anyway and I agree with your original statement Lars. The "uber" SMPS implementation would no doubt do the job better but would it be worth paying for? Nah.
Lars, are you saying most people prefer a worst sound? I'm assuming the likes of T-networks (I plan on buying some soon.. today in fact) and slit foils, actually do improve the sound? Are they a gimmick or is the science behind them real?
You know the other day I had a friend listening to a new power supply I built .. he said "the old one was way louder".... I said "thanks".
Then he felt the new power of it.. Most people don't know what a good sound is, and thanks to the garbage that is consumer audio loud=obnoxious with ear bleeding distortion, this is what they know.So what's your experience with the likes of T-networks and slit foils making other flaws in the system more apparent?
With an old car that's not worth upkeeping I don't mind masking out those ugly sounds by rolling the window down on the highway or cranking up the music but when it comes to an amp I'd rather address the issue than mask it by using cheaper parts. I don't see many around here who've tried T-networks anyway so I wanted an opinion on them.
Regards,
Chris
That's something to think about.
You just told me I'd be doing more wiring for nothing, I can get Elna Cerafines at half the cost of a T-network....hmmmmmmmmmmmm.
I may have to flip a coin for this one.
I'm not sure if you're saying that a decent cap is a decent cap or that the specs of T-networks and slit foils just aren't enough to make a difference to sonically give them an edge over the rest of them. How would classify black gates, same thing?
Thanks for the reply.
Chris
You just told me I'd be doing more wiring for nothing, I can get Elna Cerafines at half the cost of a T-network....hmmmmmmmmmmmm.
I may have to flip a coin for this one.
I'm not sure if you're saying that a decent cap is a decent cap or that the specs of T-networks and slit foils just aren't enough to make a difference to sonically give them an edge over the rest of them. How would classify black gates, same thing?
Thanks for the reply.
Chris
It may not be strictly relevant, but Martin Colloms did a cap test in HFN/RR using some class AB amps and IIRC the ranking was as follows:
T-networks 9/10
slit foils 8/10
cerafine 7/10
nichicon great supply 6/10
Scores are from memory, but I;m pretty sure he thought the differences quite striking.
Maybe the results would be different for class D?
T-networks 9/10
slit foils 8/10
cerafine 7/10
nichicon great supply 6/10
Scores are from memory, but I;m pretty sure he thought the differences quite striking.
Maybe the results would be different for class D?
Hi Lars,
Thanks for the offer. I've been thinking about it for a few hours now. On one hand, I can get 15 000uF 63V T-networks for not much more money than a set of 10 000uF 63V Cerafines, those were my choices before.
In order for a comparison to be at all meaningful I'd have to get 10 000uF T-networks from you instead, so already you've compromised my system
I however realize I'm a total sucker when it comes to going overboard with things, just because I can. I also realize 10 000uF is enough for the job and is already just a hair on the overkill side, so I don't think I'd be lacking anything if I did it.
What make are your T-network caps, and are they a pretty color? lol
Seriously, if you can ship a pair of 10 000uF 63V T-netorks this week, I'm going to call about the Cerafines shortly and make sure they have them.... we've got a deal. I'd still like to know what make though?
Regards,
Chris
Thanks for the offer. I've been thinking about it for a few hours now. On one hand, I can get 15 000uF 63V T-networks for not much more money than a set of 10 000uF 63V Cerafines, those were my choices before.
In order for a comparison to be at all meaningful I'd have to get 10 000uF T-networks from you instead, so already you've compromised my system
I however realize I'm a total sucker when it comes to going overboard with things, just because I can. I also realize 10 000uF is enough for the job and is already just a hair on the overkill side, so I don't think I'd be lacking anything if I did it.
What make are your T-network caps, and are they a pretty color? lol
Seriously, if you can ship a pair of 10 000uF 63V T-netorks this week, I'm going to call about the Cerafines shortly and make sure they have them.... we've got a deal. I'd still like to know what make though?
Regards,
Chris
Hi Lars: I am currently using the BHC ALN20S 10,000uF 63V 4 PIN T-Network, which I purchased from you (actually from Soundlabs, Australia?). I find them to be very good (read that as very fast), but they do not seem to quieten zener diode noise that is produced by the bridge rectifiers. Hence the need to the use the 4 x 0.22uF PP 250/400V caps on each bridge rectifier.
Lars: On the electronics (amp) side, can the following snubber circuit (I think that it is called a snubber circuit) be used with the 2.3SE circuit board?
For some reason I don't seem to be able to attach the picture (jpg)? I need some help with this. Any ideas?????
Lars: On the electronics (amp) side, can the following snubber circuit (I think that it is called a snubber circuit) be used with the 2.3SE circuit board?
For some reason I don't seem to be able to attach the picture (jpg)? I need some help with this. Any ideas?????
KLe said:
It's not so silly, silly would be in trying it while uncertain how to do it right.
Check this out:
http://www.partsconnexion.com/jensen/jensen.html#faq
It's the only place I found that info. BHC should include it with their data sheet too!.
Regards,
Chris
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