I still have a hard time believing any of this...The way I see it is as long as the cable in question can handle the current/voltage required, then anything beyond the bare minimum is simply overhead that is only easier on the mind than easier on the ears, and certainly not on the wallet.
If you take a look at technologically advanced military equipment, I guarantee you won't find any funky rare metal cables or anything of the like, unless a higher conductance/diameter ratio is needed than what copper can afford.
The way I see it is SOMEWHERE down the line your system's juice is running through supposedly "inferior" cables...
Your internal house wiring is COPPER, and the transmission lines that supply your local power grid certainly aren't "solid silver super conductors" or even close.
They are engineered to be able to carry the amperage and voltage without danger, and anything above that is simply not needed.
😉
I think it would be interesting to have more professional opinions on this topic, not that nobody here is professional enough, just to get more opinions on the topic. Not any that are magazine editors, but rather actual engineers that have to deal with power transmission.
If you take a look at technologically advanced military equipment, I guarantee you won't find any funky rare metal cables or anything of the like, unless a higher conductance/diameter ratio is needed than what copper can afford.
The way I see it is SOMEWHERE down the line your system's juice is running through supposedly "inferior" cables...
Your internal house wiring is COPPER, and the transmission lines that supply your local power grid certainly aren't "solid silver super conductors" or even close.
They are engineered to be able to carry the amperage and voltage without danger, and anything above that is simply not needed.
😉
I think it would be interesting to have more professional opinions on this topic, not that nobody here is professional enough, just to get more opinions on the topic. Not any that are magazine editors, but rather actual engineers that have to deal with power transmission.
asauer said:
Oh oh 😀
Maybe time to get back to speaker cables. Sorry, I was the one who took us back off topic.
I really would like to know is if you can hear the difference between the 16 ga extension cord I'm currently using and my new roll of 10ga. high strand purified copper exterior grade speaker wire I just bought.
I suspect not but, "in my heart" I know the 10ga. sounds better😉
Funny thing is the big wire was the same per foot price, I just had to by a lifetimes worth (500 ft), that's all.
It's very difficult to judge what "well spent" money is, isn't it?
Cal
Any of you that haven't read this from Nelson Pass, should probably do so (if you're interested in speaker cables):
http://www.passlabs.com/pdf/spkrcabl.pdf
It's pretty interesting.
No, I have not read Nelson's thoughts on this topic, but I will do so tonight. By "professional opinions" and "engineers" I think that an engineer who has to deal with data transmisison (much more important than sonic transmission as far as accuracy tolerances, coloration, etc etc fancy (some imaginary?) terms for cable quality.
I should talk to my uncle about this...he is a professor at Notre Dame. Teaches a class that is titled *I think* Transmission Line Systems (deals with high voltage power lines for electrical companies). Not sure if the audio/tranmission line cable requirements can be contrasted, but it's worth a shot to talk to people about it.
I should talk to my uncle about this...he is a professor at Notre Dame. Teaches a class that is titled *I think* Transmission Line Systems (deals with high voltage power lines for electrical companies). Not sure if the audio/tranmission line cable requirements can be contrasted, but it's worth a shot to talk to people about it.
RHosch said:
I did not use the word _test_ in my post.
You are putting words into my post that I did not use. You specifically quote a word I did not use and attribute it to me. Looks to me like you're the one to run away from.
The man asked, I answered _big grin_
You don't like the concept? Hey, don't try it.
But don't lie and ridicule sincere discussion.
We're exchanging viewpoints, you're slinging mud.
No regards
Ken L
Was that Nelson Pass article written in February of 1980?
I think I saw that at the top of the article.
I wonder if things are the same nowadays with the amps and with the copper purity.
Were any of the cables something other than copper?
Cal
I think I saw that at the top of the article.
I wonder if things are the same nowadays with the amps and with the copper purity.
Were any of the cables something other than copper?
Cal
My oh my, I am so sorry I misquoted you. 🙄Ken L said:
So you stated "could A/B the difference blind." Well, to do that you must execute the steps that are generally agreed to constitute a test. You didn't explicitly use the word, but you certainly implied that you performed a test... controlled or not (obviously not, if you claim to have heard a difference blind).
No, I am using common sense. Something a few others around here should give a shot from time to time. You probably should run away from me, but not because I misquoted you.
I didn't lie, and ridiculous statements deserve ridicule.
You're making false statements of fact (look up the definition of a statement of fact), not sharing opinions.
Hey RHosch,
I asked Ken his opinion on the silver. He gave it.
Where are you coming from?
Very good advice
Heed it.
Cal
I asked Ken his opinion on the silver. He gave it.
Where are you coming from?
Very good advice
Heed it.
Cal
These statements of Ken's are statements of fact, not opinion:
I have no problem with people sharing their opinions. You think purple skies look better than blue ones, fine... no one can argue your opinion. You think silver cables sound better than copper ones, fine... no one can argue your opinion. You claim that the sky is in fact purple and that this is easily demonstrated, then someone will rightly step in and call you on it.
I have done no different here. Ken made statements of fact about the audibility of silver cabling, with no offer of supportive information to back up that claim. Were his claim something like "big speaker sound different than small ones" I wouldn't have a problem, since the tests proving that to generally be the case are abundant. There exists no such data regarding the claims he made.
My point is simple... people should be careful about separating statements of opinion and fact. False statements of fact are misleading and deceptive. Opinions are just that. It isn't always necessary to label a statement as an opinion, but when a statement is worded and presented as a fact then I think more care should be taken.
Hi,
It is a fact that statements of fact are in fact only an interpretation of a statement of an opinion.
It therefore is not a fact but merely an interpretation of the fact that:
a) Ken L. prefers the silver I/C in his system, past and current.
b) When asked for his experience with this he gladly gave his opinion on this matter.
Where is the fact stating that silver IS de facto better than copper/or conductor?
Cheers,😉
It is a fact that statements of fact are in fact only an interpretation of a statement of an opinion.
It therefore is not a fact but merely an interpretation of the fact that:
a) Ken L. prefers the silver I/C in his system, past and current.
b) When asked for his experience with this he gladly gave his opinion on this matter.
Where is the fact stating that silver IS de facto better than copper/or conductor?
Cheers,😉
Belden makes a great wire that is silver plated copper with a teflon jacket. It has 19 strand of wire per cable. Hook-up/Lead- UL Style 1213 MIL-W-16878/4 (Type E) is an example of it. It comes in lots of gauges and colors. I braid it like kimber kable for interconnects and use the heavier gauges as cheap speaker hook-up wire.
At one, I had Kimber 8 something cables on my speakers, a friend brought over his MIT cables and I was floored at the difference. Being an engineer, we tend not to believe in cable differences however, I became a believer that day that there are differences in speaker cable. Also in my work in fiber optics, there are many different grades of performance in that stuff.
I have used silver plated hookup wire since the late 70's. I also use in my speakers amps preamps and interconnects. A couple of months back I even purchased some Beldon 75ohm RG187 silver plated Teflon cable for the DAC I was completing. I am sold on the stuff, I have even heard Nelson state that he uses it also.
As for the Orange cable AC extension cables, I remember seeing the Grateful dead with AC extension cable connecting to all there speaker in their sound reinforcement systems.
😉
I have used silver plated hookup wire since the late 70's. I also use in my speakers amps preamps and interconnects. A couple of months back I even purchased some Beldon 75ohm RG187 silver plated Teflon cable for the DAC I was completing. I am sold on the stuff, I have even heard Nelson state that he uses it also.
As for the Orange cable AC extension cables, I remember seeing the Grateful dead with AC extension cable connecting to all there speaker in their sound reinforcement systems.
😉
You have no idea what you are talking about. I'm not even sure if you were trying to be serious or not, but if you were you need help.fdegrove said:
Statements of fact are statements that are either true or false. There is no inbetween. Whether we know whether it is true or false doesn't matter, as long as it has to be one or the other. Some statements of fact are false statements and the rest are true, and some are indeterminable at the current time (but remain either true or false, albeit which one may be unknown to us). A few examples to help:
Statement of fact: There are stars in the universe. This is a statement that can be tested.
Provably false statement of fact: There are three stars in the universe. This can be proven false by merely counting a few.
True statement of fact: There is one star in our solar system. This statement is consistent with the condition of being true... I'm avoiding the issue of whether you can prove something to be true by reducing the requirement to being consistent with the condition of being true (i.e., passes all proposed tests of validity, passes conceptual tests, is logical and self consistent, etc.).
Statement of fact: There are 100,039,048,848,489,290 stars in the universe. This is either true or false. We can't determine this now, and probably never will be able to, but it is a statement of fact.
Statement of fact: Blue stars weigh more than red stars. This is a statement that can be tested by looking at a sampling of blue and red stars. It could easily be proven false by finding a single red star heavier than a single blue star. It could be currently indeterminable if our technology didn't allow accurate estimation of the mass of stars. It could be proven consistent with the conditition of being true if no examples were found that were in contradiction to the statement.
Statement of OPINION: Blue stars are prettier than red stars. How would you even test such a thing? There is no test. There is no refutation. The statement can be both true and false, or to someone who is blind the statement could be neither. There is no one condition that the statement is either in agreement with or in disagreement with... it is merely a statement about what one person thinks.
Applied to this discussion, a statement of fact would be that silver cables produce audible differences (a statement that was repeatedly made). This is a statement that is either true or false (but perhaps indeterminable at the present time...) and can be readily tested. Whether it is true or false does not change the nature of the statement... it is a statement of fact, by definition.
A statement of opinion would be which cable sounds better to you. Since personal preference need not meet any objective criterion, there is no refutation. Even if the cables objectively produced identical signals, the final auditory perception involves more than the soundwaves hitting the eardrum, thus one may still form an opinion. I might like one rock better than another even if they are identical, if for no other reason than because I always like to have one favorite out of any grouping, logical or not. That's fine. That's an opinion.
However, if the "opinions" about the sound begin to lean to more objectively testable conditions, such as lower noise floor, lower distortion, extended frequency response or better transients, then these statements become statements of fact (either true or false). It is an easy excercise to show that the statements of fact made by so many botique cables manufacturers are not consistent with a condidtion of being true. However, in this case absence of a positive will never be proof of a negative. There is no test that can prove the negative... it can only be demonstrated that in any statistically valid sample no proof of audibility has been found.
In Ken's particular case though, he made the statement not about people in general, but about two specifically. With a narrowed sample size, it can be proven that he can or cannot perform the feat claimed. The burden of proof is tremendous in this case, and rests squarely on his shoulders, simply due to the profound impact such a true claim would make.
I didn't intend to get this deep into the discussion, but it needs to be discussed from time to time. I don't label every statement of opinion as such, and don't expect others to do it every time either. However I think some common sense should be used in the veracity of claims made about such questionable phenomenon.
And after his statement about the 'veil being lifted' I just couldn't resist. A statement that he can easily pass blind testing was pushing it. To then describe the difference in such cliche terms was too much.
NE CHERCHEZ PAS DOCTEUR, C'EST LA TETE...
Hi,
Perhaps we all need help then;
Where can one possibly read a statement of fact regarding the superiority of silver conductors in the following lines:
I'm not here to defend anyone but I surely can't see or read any other claim than the mere statement : " In my system I found this and that..."
Next time anyone wants to exchange a personal experience please note to add a disclaimer saying that it's just an opinion, nothing more, nothing less.
That being said, can anyone in his right mind demand proof of a subjective experience?
It is however a fact that silver is a superior conductor compared to copper.
Whether it would therefore sound better is entirely up to individual preference. That too is a fact.
Cheers,😉
Hi,
Perhaps we all need help then;
Where can one possibly read a statement of fact regarding the superiority of silver conductors in the following lines:
I'm not here to defend anyone but I surely can't see or read any other claim than the mere statement : " In my system I found this and that..."
Next time anyone wants to exchange a personal experience please note to add a disclaimer saying that it's just an opinion, nothing more, nothing less.
That being said, can anyone in his right mind demand proof of a subjective experience?
It is however a fact that silver is a superior conductor compared to copper.
Whether it would therefore sound better is entirely up to individual preference. That too is a fact.
Cheers,😉
markp said:
I have made a great deal of experiments with this sort of cable, but the version I used is manufactured by Habia. I chose Habia over a few other manufacturers due to the fact that silver plated wire must be of second to none quality, othervise it is audiably (we are talking night and day) worse than anything else. With the plating done right, it works well. For interconnects it is an excellent choice...(I use it for pretty much anything right now, like hook uo and so forth, due to the overall good properties of little oxidation and nice insulation properties).
During a discussion with Frank a few days ago about speaker cable he recommended a test of this wire as speaker cables.
I paralelled 4 times 1mm2 to be able to compare them to my current cables. The first impression was that I couldnt tell them from my 4mm2 OFC copper cables. They have been in my system for a couple of days by now, and yesterday I felt like making a little experiment...(another "Frank" idea) and twisted the cables. Now that made a change, and for the better. The sound became remarkably softer.
I may stay with it like this.
One thing I have found to be a general guideline is to not go under 4mm2 for speaker cable when dealing with bigger than 8inch woofers. I too tried to go up to 8mm2, that made the highs unpleasent.
Magura🙂
Re: NE CHERCHEZ PAS DOCTEUR, C'EST LA TETE...
Where did I say that a claim of superiority was what I had a problem with? Perhaps you should reread my above post more carefully.
I read a bit more than that... he didn't claim that he preferred this or that, but rather that this or that was easily identifiable though a blind test. Quite different than stating a personal preference.
Interesting topic, but IMO yes. I can't demand proof for what your subjective preference is related to that experience, but I can demand proof that such an experience actually occurred, or more relveant and more important I can demand proof of the reasons given for why that experience occured.
i.e., I can demand proof that various cables actually produce an audible difference. If you claim that signal variations are the reason you prefer one over the other, than I can rightfully demand proof that such variations exist and are of sufficient magnitude to be audible. If on the other hand you provide no reason for your preference other than "I like that one just because..." then I have no problem.
Everyone is entitled to their opinion. Just don't confuse opinions with statements of fact, and prefacing every statement with "I think" is not sufficient. You are entitled to your opinion that purple skies are prettier than blue skies. Stating that "I think the sky is purple" is not an opinion though... you can be proven wrong. Stating that "I think cables sound different" is not an opinion... it is a statement of fact.
fdegrove said:
Where did I say that a claim of superiority was what I had a problem with? Perhaps you should reread my above post more carefully.
I read a bit more than that... he didn't claim that he preferred this or that, but rather that this or that was easily identifiable though a blind test. Quite different than stating a personal preference.
Interesting topic, but IMO yes. I can't demand proof for what your subjective preference is related to that experience, but I can demand proof that such an experience actually occurred, or more relveant and more important I can demand proof of the reasons given for why that experience occured.
i.e., I can demand proof that various cables actually produce an audible difference. If you claim that signal variations are the reason you prefer one over the other, than I can rightfully demand proof that such variations exist and are of sufficient magnitude to be audible. If on the other hand you provide no reason for your preference other than "I like that one just because..." then I have no problem.
Everyone is entitled to their opinion. Just don't confuse opinions with statements of fact, and prefacing every statement with "I think" is not sufficient. You are entitled to your opinion that purple skies are prettier than blue skies. Stating that "I think the sky is purple" is not an opinion though... you can be proven wrong. Stating that "I think cables sound different" is not an opinion... it is a statement of fact.
Try a braided configuration with the third wire not connected at either end. It is just there as a place holder so it is easier to get the two other leads at right angles as much as possible greatly reducing their interaction.
Hi,
No, it's an expression of personal opinion.
The following statement could however be considered as a statement of fact:
"Cables sound different".
However, the following statement is just wishful thinking, not a fact:
I think I'll live another twenty years.
So, you could also reply to Ken L. that you think he and his wife are just imagining things...something that could well be true after all.
You can also put the third wire to good use and connect it to the minus terminal of the amplifier. Same procedure for the other channel.
If you use shielded cable, you can do the same with the shield.
Cheers,😉
No, it's an expression of personal opinion.
The following statement could however be considered as a statement of fact:
"Cables sound different".
However, the following statement is just wishful thinking, not a fact:
I think I'll live another twenty years.
So, you could also reply to Ken L. that you think he and his wife are just imagining things...something that could well be true after all.
You can also put the third wire to good use and connect it to the minus terminal of the amplifier. Same procedure for the other channel.
If you use shielded cable, you can do the same with the shield.
Cheers,😉
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