Hi ...l have a yamaha p-220 amp and its been working fine with out a problem on some JBL bins in my garage for the odd party or birthday. Anyway l sold the JBL speaker a year ago and now thought about useing it as a amp for a subwoofer in my home thearter set up. Then l decieded to get a new front from yamaha spares to make it look new and "spiffy". After finding out that this would cost aprox $400 l then thought that l would get a nice 10mm thick alluminium plate and have it milled with nice glass windows for the meters and "spiffy" blue LED with a brushed finish.
So l started to pull it apart and was a little disipointed to see that alot of the parts were .....cheap. Overall the outside look and performance didnt match with what l thought the innards of a pro amp from the makers of yamaha. Maybe its because l have not seen a lot of pro amps and that most of the amps that lve played with have been for domestic hi-fi.
Now lm thinking perhaps l should use the caps.trannie,case/heatsinks and put new amp boards like NX150 from Aussie amplifiers or make it into a leach amp(l think thats how you spell it?) not use the meters on the front or the volume pots and have a plane alluminium front(only on/off and LED) and making a new home hi-fi amp. OR try upgrade as manny parts as l can on the yamaha p-2200 boards , upgrade wires etc and would any of the upgrades make any diference anyway?
If any one would like to add any coments or ideas l would be very gratefull. Thanks for being patient with the long post!!
So l started to pull it apart and was a little disipointed to see that alot of the parts were .....cheap. Overall the outside look and performance didnt match with what l thought the innards of a pro amp from the makers of yamaha. Maybe its because l have not seen a lot of pro amps and that most of the amps that lve played with have been for domestic hi-fi.
Now lm thinking perhaps l should use the caps.trannie,case/heatsinks and put new amp boards like NX150 from Aussie amplifiers or make it into a leach amp(l think thats how you spell it?) not use the meters on the front or the volume pots and have a plane alluminium front(only on/off and LED) and making a new home hi-fi amp. OR try upgrade as manny parts as l can on the yamaha p-2200 boards , upgrade wires etc and would any of the upgrades make any diference anyway?
If any one would like to add any coments or ideas l would be very gratefull. Thanks for being patient with the long post!!
Hi mrnedrub,
Gee, I used to service those under warranty, and out. They are not cheaply built at all! Price an input level control.
They even used thermal grease on the power transformer. They are designed to be light weight as many were roaded.
These are very clean amplifiers and reasonably tough. My personal viewpoint is that it would be a crime to do what you are suggesting. Clean it up and treat any new amps with more care.
-Chris
Gee, I used to service those under warranty, and out. They are not cheaply built at all! Price an input level control.
They even used thermal grease on the power transformer. They are designed to be light weight as many were roaded.These are very clean amplifiers and reasonably tough. My personal viewpoint is that it would be a crime to do what you are suggesting. Clean it up and treat any new amps with more care.
-Chris
P2201
I had a P2201 for many years and it was a fantastic sounding amp. I had it opened up a few times and nothing about it seemed cheap to me, infact I thought it was built like a tank. It certainly worked like a tank as I did the DJ thing with it for four or five years. When we parted ways I I sold it for the same price I paid when I picked it up second hand. I really wish I held on to it. It was a kind of reference amp for me as it was the first "big" "nice" sounding PA amp I had. It had the first torroidal transformer I ever saw and I picked it up in 1985/86.
If I had one now I would put some "love" into it and take it to my grave. 🙂
Cheers,
Shawn.
I had a P2201 for many years and it was a fantastic sounding amp. I had it opened up a few times and nothing about it seemed cheap to me, infact I thought it was built like a tank. It certainly worked like a tank as I did the DJ thing with it for four or five years. When we parted ways I I sold it for the same price I paid when I picked it up second hand. I really wish I held on to it. It was a kind of reference amp for me as it was the first "big" "nice" sounding PA amp I had. It had the first torroidal transformer I ever saw and I picked it up in 1985/86.
If I had one now I would put some "love" into it and take it to my grave. 🙂
Cheers,
Shawn.
found this: http://www.ampslab.com/PDF/yamaha_p2201.pdf
If you want to dump it, I'll pay shipping ... he, he, he ...
Yes, you could "put new amp boards like NX150 from Aussie amplifiers" ... but I wouldn't unless the main boards are beyond repair. (FYI: http://3dotaudio.com/ampics.html = worked out very well indeed.)
😎
If you want to dump it, I'll pay shipping ... he, he, he ...
Yes, you could "put new amp boards like NX150 from Aussie amplifiers" ... but I wouldn't unless the main boards are beyond repair. (FYI: http://3dotaudio.com/ampics.html = worked out very well indeed.)
😎
For me that pdf says a lot about the quality Yamaha was packing into their commercial line of products back in the day; it is almost a "101" on basic PA implementation.
The rail voltages are high in these amps like +/_80 VDC so care would be required if using the existing power supply for another drop in replacement. I don't think the NX150 would survive those rails but I have not seen the schematic so perhaps it could be tweaked for the application?
Also the Yamaha is set up for TO3's on the outputs, I believe the NX150 has a different package integrated into the PCB design?
Cheers,
Shawn.
The rail voltages are high in these amps like +/_80 VDC so care would be required if using the existing power supply for another drop in replacement. I don't think the NX150 would survive those rails but I have not seen the schematic so perhaps it could be tweaked for the application?
Also the Yamaha is set up for TO3's on the outputs, I believe the NX150 has a different package integrated into the PCB design?
Cheers,
Shawn.
"... The rail voltages are high in these amps like +/- 80 VDC so care would be required ..."
Yes indeedee = AA says that voltage may be too much for the NX150, not to be stressed beyond about +/- 68 VDC (as per previous link = Crown rail voltage.) ... FYI: Anthony is very forth coming with modest tech support ( aussieamps@netspace.net.au ). You might take a look at his brand new NX400 Synergy or the NX500NL or even the NX800N. (I am sure the NX800N and NX1000N will handle the +/- 80 VDC heat ... but best to ask him first.)
Also, the TO3 transistors in the Yamaha would or should be bypassed as the NX150,'400, '500, '800 & NX1000N are designed for and include matched sets of power MOSFETs, not "regular" transistors (The MOSFETs can easily be aligned with the Y2200's existing heat sinks, however.)
http://aussieamplifiers.com/power_amps.htm ... I recommend 'em and have two NX150 pre-assembled modules and two AV400 kits and just recently obtained two NX400 Synergy (got a couple of the prototypes, but have not assembled or run any tests as yet.) ... all these modules are priced within a narrow range = ~US$160 to ~US$350, each module plus shipping.
Yes, I have drunk the AA koolaid and I like power MOSFETs a lot = more efficient ( 😎 ) plus almost tube like performance and listening quality = plenty of guts on the low end, clean clear high end, smooth transition at clipping ... 🙂
.....
All the above long winded discourse being said, I would still suggest that gutting the Yamaha 2200 might be a grevious error. If that puppy still works and works pretty good, why don't you just tweak the caps with some high quality poly goodies, upgrade the wiring if you must and learn to love it! .... That Yamaha design with all those features would be a shame to part with IMOP ... (Do a retro fit of a junk amp, and save the Y2200 for your personal stash.)
... 😀
Yes indeedee = AA says that voltage may be too much for the NX150, not to be stressed beyond about +/- 68 VDC (as per previous link = Crown rail voltage.) ... FYI: Anthony is very forth coming with modest tech support ( aussieamps@netspace.net.au ). You might take a look at his brand new NX400 Synergy or the NX500NL or even the NX800N. (I am sure the NX800N and NX1000N will handle the +/- 80 VDC heat ... but best to ask him first.)
Also, the TO3 transistors in the Yamaha would or should be bypassed as the NX150,'400, '500, '800 & NX1000N are designed for and include matched sets of power MOSFETs, not "regular" transistors (The MOSFETs can easily be aligned with the Y2200's existing heat sinks, however.)
http://aussieamplifiers.com/power_amps.htm ... I recommend 'em and have two NX150 pre-assembled modules and two AV400 kits and just recently obtained two NX400 Synergy (got a couple of the prototypes, but have not assembled or run any tests as yet.) ... all these modules are priced within a narrow range = ~US$160 to ~US$350, each module plus shipping.
Yes, I have drunk the AA koolaid and I like power MOSFETs a lot = more efficient ( 😎 ) plus almost tube like performance and listening quality = plenty of guts on the low end, clean clear high end, smooth transition at clipping ... 🙂
.....
All the above long winded discourse being said, I would still suggest that gutting the Yamaha 2200 might be a grevious error. If that puppy still works and works pretty good, why don't you just tweak the caps with some high quality poly goodies, upgrade the wiring if you must and learn to love it! .... That Yamaha design with all those features would be a shame to part with IMOP ... (Do a retro fit of a junk amp, and save the Y2200 for your personal stash.)
... 😀
Hi FastEddy,
They were very good in recording studios.
-Chris
You had me worried. I'm glad you said that! That P-2200 is actually an advanced design for the time period. Way overkill for sound quality.
They were very good in recording studios.
-Chris
" ... That P-2200 is actually an advanced design for the time period. Way overkill for sound quality. ... They were very good in recording studios. ... "
Glad you said that too. I was worried there for a minute that mrnedrub might actually junk it. I would pay him a reasonable amount and shipping just to have one for my personal stash ... way cool, loaded with nice pro-gear features and a well thought out design. I would bet all it really needs is some power supply clean up = better poly caps, etc.
Glad you said that too. I was worried there for a minute that mrnedrub might actually junk it. I would pay him a reasonable amount and shipping just to have one for my personal stash ... way cool, loaded with nice pro-gear features and a well thought out design. I would bet all it really needs is some power supply clean up = better poly caps, etc.
Hi FastEddy,
-Chris
That's what I had in mind too.
Nice thought, but shipping would be killer from Oz!
-Chris
yamaha P-2200....?
Hi , thanks for some great ideas and for replies!! I went to the local sevice center and found some nice spray for cleaning the pcb and this has worked a treat. After looking closer at the board what really concerned me was the amount of resin on the solder joints and on the wires that conect to the T03 to the board.....In regards to the "cheap-ness" this remark was more about the fact that this amp sounded so good to me that l was expecting more inside than l found.
So l was thinking to re-spray/powder coat all pieces semi gloss black , re-wire inside with better grade wire for power/T03/speakers , leave out level controls and re-wire from new RCA/balanced inputs straight to the boards(with good S.Q coax) then finish off with a new 10mm alluminium front with brushed finish(black or silver ?) based roughly on the original(should l use the meters or not?)
Does this sound better? Also when replacing the caps should l relace all caps on board or only some. Can anyone give me ideas as to what brand l could use and still have money left to eat?
Cheers to all and thanks again to those who make this place what it is!!😀
Hi , thanks for some great ideas and for replies!! I went to the local sevice center and found some nice spray for cleaning the pcb and this has worked a treat. After looking closer at the board what really concerned me was the amount of resin on the solder joints and on the wires that conect to the T03 to the board.....In regards to the "cheap-ness" this remark was more about the fact that this amp sounded so good to me that l was expecting more inside than l found.
So l was thinking to re-spray/powder coat all pieces semi gloss black , re-wire inside with better grade wire for power/T03/speakers , leave out level controls and re-wire from new RCA/balanced inputs straight to the boards(with good S.Q coax) then finish off with a new 10mm alluminium front with brushed finish(black or silver ?) based roughly on the original(should l use the meters or not?)
Does this sound better? Also when replacing the caps should l relace all caps on board or only some. Can anyone give me ideas as to what brand l could use and still have money left to eat?
Cheers to all and thanks again to those who make this place what it is!!😀
Hi mrnedrub,
I don't believe thee things will make it sounds any better. The level controls are really very good. "Out of circuit" is fully up, so leave them. You may find them very handy from time to time.
Replacing the old electrolytics on the board will help, so will changing out any ceramic types you may find for a film or mica type.
-Chris
I don't believe thee things will make it sounds any better. The level controls are really very good. "Out of circuit" is fully up, so leave them. You may find them very handy from time to time.
Replacing the old electrolytics on the board will help, so will changing out any ceramic types you may find for a film or mica type.
-Chris
mrnedrub: " I ... found some nice spray for cleaning the pcb and this has worked a treat. ... what really concerned me was the amount of resin on the solder joints and on the wires that conect to the T03 to the board ... this amp sounded so good to me that l was expecting more inside than l found ... "
There are treatments that can "brighten up" an older board = that resin does deteriorate with time to a high impedence / high resistance pathway (not a good insulator), degrading some signal response = removal is a good idea. Wondering what type / formula the spray is that you picked up ?? (Personally I like the very old fashioned Radio Shack spray-on contact cleaner for old style TV tuners, red & white can, cheap, leaves very little residue & is water soluable. Use a scrub brush or old toothbrush where possible, very carefully.)
In My Opinion / mrnedrub's MODs:
" ... was thinking to re-spray/powder coat all pieces semi gloss black."
[Good, exterior only, I trust = no overspray allowed inside around the circuits.]
" ... re-wire inside with better grade wire for power/T03/speakers."
[I Might suggest #14 stranded silver or silver plated or #12 stranded copper, TO3s to the binding posts. I would probably not replace wiring from board to TO3s unless you see an obvious necessity.]
" ... leave out level controls and re-wire from new RCA/balanced inputs straight to the boards(with good S.Q coax)."
[I might try bypassing the gain controls, temporarily, but would probably not remove them = nice looking hardware and could be useful in a future tweak or mod. I might suggest that stranded silver or solid silver twisted pairs would work well to & from the RCA connectors.]
" ... finish off with a new . front . based roughly on the original(should l use the meters or not?)"
[I would try to keep any and all meters, indicator lights & LEDs, etc., and keep 'em all working and useful. I believe that Yamaha had and always has had a very good circuit for the VU meters = very high impedence = virtually no effect on audio quality that I remember. Yamaha is a pretty sharp outfit = they make wonderful pianos, so they understand about audio quality.]
" ... when replacing the caps should l relace all caps on board or only some. Can anyone give me ideas as to what brand l could use and still have money left to eat?"
[First I would carefully examine all big and small electrolytic capacitors and any other "barrel type" capacitors, looking for any signs of leakage or corrosion around the leads, bloated or "fat" bulges on the tops or bottoms, etc. ... any signs of this on any electro cap or other type of caps = replace 'em with same value, same voltage rating, same type (some of the smaller caps may have influence over timing = the RLC time constants, and should not necessarily be modified unless you absolutely know what you are doing) ... and use silver solder, everywhere you make a repair. I consider the power supply and power rails as a special case: I always like to use top quality, audiophile preferenced capacitors (expensive sometimes, sometimes not) ... close to the working amplification parts = close coupling to any second stage IC or drive transistors and the power output stage drivers ... thus adding extra filtration right next to where the action is. Doubling or tripling the total power rail capacitance is not unusual = IMOP. I also like to add plastic (poly) snubbing caps in parallel with larger valued electrolytic caps in a ratio of ~~ 1 to 100 ... adding to the overall "brightness" and response of the last stage(s) of output = IMOP.]
There are treatments that can "brighten up" an older board = that resin does deteriorate with time to a high impedence / high resistance pathway (not a good insulator), degrading some signal response = removal is a good idea. Wondering what type / formula the spray is that you picked up ?? (Personally I like the very old fashioned Radio Shack spray-on contact cleaner for old style TV tuners, red & white can, cheap, leaves very little residue & is water soluable. Use a scrub brush or old toothbrush where possible, very carefully.)
In My Opinion / mrnedrub's MODs:
" ... was thinking to re-spray/powder coat all pieces semi gloss black."
[Good, exterior only, I trust = no overspray allowed inside around the circuits.]
" ... re-wire inside with better grade wire for power/T03/speakers."
[I Might suggest #14 stranded silver or silver plated or #12 stranded copper, TO3s to the binding posts. I would probably not replace wiring from board to TO3s unless you see an obvious necessity.]
" ... leave out level controls and re-wire from new RCA/balanced inputs straight to the boards(with good S.Q coax)."
[I might try bypassing the gain controls, temporarily, but would probably not remove them = nice looking hardware and could be useful in a future tweak or mod. I might suggest that stranded silver or solid silver twisted pairs would work well to & from the RCA connectors.]
" ... finish off with a new . front . based roughly on the original(should l use the meters or not?)"
[I would try to keep any and all meters, indicator lights & LEDs, etc., and keep 'em all working and useful. I believe that Yamaha had and always has had a very good circuit for the VU meters = very high impedence = virtually no effect on audio quality that I remember. Yamaha is a pretty sharp outfit = they make wonderful pianos, so they understand about audio quality.]
" ... when replacing the caps should l relace all caps on board or only some. Can anyone give me ideas as to what brand l could use and still have money left to eat?"
[First I would carefully examine all big and small electrolytic capacitors and any other "barrel type" capacitors, looking for any signs of leakage or corrosion around the leads, bloated or "fat" bulges on the tops or bottoms, etc. ... any signs of this on any electro cap or other type of caps = replace 'em with same value, same voltage rating, same type (some of the smaller caps may have influence over timing = the RLC time constants, and should not necessarily be modified unless you absolutely know what you are doing) ... and use silver solder, everywhere you make a repair. I consider the power supply and power rails as a special case: I always like to use top quality, audiophile preferenced capacitors (expensive sometimes, sometimes not) ... close to the working amplification parts = close coupling to any second stage IC or drive transistors and the power output stage drivers ... thus adding extra filtration right next to where the action is. Doubling or tripling the total power rail capacitance is not unusual = IMOP. I also like to add plastic (poly) snubbing caps in parallel with larger valued electrolytic caps in a ratio of ~~ 1 to 100 ... adding to the overall "brightness" and response of the last stage(s) of output = IMOP.]
Ahhh.....Fast Eddy your the man!! l like your reply and am trying to look at some types of caps that l can find on the net(and trying to not buy into snake oil...)and get an idea to cost. l suspect that its a bit like "how long is a piece of string" but got to start trying....bit hard really when there is no way for me to really tell the diffirence in products....just sales talk as far as lve found. After looking inside the attenuators lm not convinced that they arnt going to degrade the signal as l thought that the fewer joints and the more direct way of getting the signal to the pcb was the best? lspent today desoldering the board in quite a few places and used silver solder combined with good tempcontrol iron and have made the look better if not the sound. lwill try to get some photo's up soon so your able to see me "butcher" or make something good better?
cheers
p.s thanks to the others aswell!
cheers
p.s thanks to the others aswell!
Hi mrnedrub,
Different wire will only manage to possibly make things sound worse. Look up "dissimilar metal contact" and a thermocouple table.
Copper is by far and away the best. That's what the traces are made from and what everything has been designed for. When you solder, some copper is dissolved making a solid solution.
Now, if there is any doubt what so ever, find out how errors in measurement is avoided in the test and measurement field. Thermometer errors would be one of the best examples of how to avoid errors. researching mV meter calibration is another way. (eg. When zeroing an HP 34401 meter, copper shunts must be used. This is only a 6 1/2 digit meter)
Silver wire and other alloys are simple nonsense. Look it up for yourself.
-Chris
Different wire will only manage to possibly make things sound worse. Look up "dissimilar metal contact" and a thermocouple table.
Copper is by far and away the best. That's what the traces are made from and what everything has been designed for. When you solder, some copper is dissolved making a solid solution.
Now, if there is any doubt what so ever, find out how errors in measurement is avoided in the test and measurement field. Thermometer errors would be one of the best examples of how to avoid errors. researching mV meter calibration is another way. (eg. When zeroing an HP 34401 meter, copper shunts must be used. This is only a 6 1/2 digit meter)
Silver wire and other alloys are simple nonsense. Look it up for yourself.
-Chris
" ... Different wire will only manage to possibly make things sound worse. Look up "dissimilar metal contact" and a thermocouple table. Copper is by far and away the best. ..."
Yes, this is all true. But if one must replace wires because of some real or preceived failure or degradation over time, my choice is always silver wire or silver plated or silver coated, stranded, especially in the small signal area and to use silver solder, always. ... I👎 M👍 OP(inion).
" ... if there is any doubt what so ever, find out how errors in measurement is avoided in the test and measurement field. Thermometer errors would be one of the best examples of how to avoid errors. ..."
Of interest, generally, silver has less effect on thermal couple & galvanic (dissimilar metals) questions, not more ... Check out this cute Apple Mac (and soon MS Vista) widget: http://www.apple.com/downloads/dashboard/reference/theperiodictable.html ... double clicking on any element leads straight to the wikipedia pages ...
Yes, this is all true. But if one must replace wires because of some real or preceived failure or degradation over time, my choice is always silver wire or silver plated or silver coated, stranded, especially in the small signal area and to use silver solder, always. ... I👎 M👍 OP(inion).
" ... if there is any doubt what so ever, find out how errors in measurement is avoided in the test and measurement field. Thermometer errors would be one of the best examples of how to avoid errors. ..."
Of interest, generally, silver has less effect on thermal couple & galvanic (dissimilar metals) questions, not more ... Check out this cute Apple Mac (and soon MS Vista) widget: http://www.apple.com/downloads/dashboard/reference/theperiodictable.html ... double clicking on any element leads straight to the wikipedia pages ...
Hi FastEddy,
If you were referring to the voltage generated, then silver is the least of the evils you could commit. See here for more info (incl. silver). Of course you could simply use copper wire, which is also cheaper to boot. I guess silver is shiny and we all like shiny things. 😉 That and expensive things are always better.
I hear you though.
-Chris
Hmmmm, silver to copper vs copper to copper. You lost me somewhere. Copper is the standard PCB trace material for audio electronics. Non-magnetic component leads (high end caps) are copper. Since we are using copper as a reference, we have to look at copper to <insert other metal> for our effects.
If you were referring to the voltage generated, then silver is the least of the evils you could commit. See here for more info (incl. silver). Of course you could simply use copper wire, which is also cheaper to boot. I guess silver is shiny and we all like shiny things. 😉 That and expensive things are always better.
I hear you though.
-Chris
anatech: " ... Copper is the standard PCB trace material for audio electronics. Non-magnetic component leads (high end caps) are copper. Since we are using copper as a reference, we have to look at copper to <insert other metal> for our effects. ..."
MMmmm Yes, I see what you mean. I would only add that most of the copper to copper interconnects (caps, resistors connecting to board traces, etc.) use metal solder other than copper (lead, tin, etc. ... and silver). Of these various metals, silver seems to be the best, least subject to corrosion (silver maintains low impedence even with sulphur tarnish), lowest resistance and having the lowest Q&A, least problems re: galvanic action and thermo-coupling. ... at least that is what I make of it.
I have no Q&A with having copper be the reference for resistance, thermal conductivity, galvanic action, etc., etc. .... I would just submit that copper traces connecting to silver wire via silver solder connection ... then reconnecting on the other end to copper (silver solder again) ... would seem the least likely to have any impedence problems = lower resistance, lower thermo-coupling voltage (as per your link above), least degradation over time, etc.
etc ...🙂
MMmmm Yes, I see what you mean. I would only add that most of the copper to copper interconnects (caps, resistors connecting to board traces, etc.) use metal solder other than copper (lead, tin, etc. ... and silver). Of these various metals, silver seems to be the best, least subject to corrosion (silver maintains low impedence even with sulphur tarnish), lowest resistance and having the lowest Q&A, least problems re: galvanic action and thermo-coupling. ... at least that is what I make of it.
I have no Q&A with having copper be the reference for resistance, thermal conductivity, galvanic action, etc., etc. .... I would just submit that copper traces connecting to silver wire via silver solder connection ... then reconnecting on the other end to copper (silver solder again) ... would seem the least likely to have any impedence problems = lower resistance, lower thermo-coupling voltage (as per your link above), least degradation over time, etc.
etc ...🙂
Hi FastEddy,
We are in agreement. I'm only pointing out that paying more for silver isn't going to help anything. If your wire is corroding, the board is toast already.
-Chris
We are in agreement. I'm only pointing out that paying more for silver isn't going to help anything. If your wire is corroding, the board is toast already.
-Chris
Re: yamaha P-2200....?
For memory those level controls were indented 32 odd position Black Alps Pots, only the best you can get? You could probaly get $50 each for the pots s/h on ebay.
Cheers George
mrnedrub said:
For memory those level controls were indented 32 odd position Black Alps Pots, only the best you can get? You could probaly get $50 each for the pots s/h on ebay.
Cheers George
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