zoranaudio said:
I agree with you but adding bits of silver interconnect and silver wire inductors is really not going to make any difference. Just replace or upgrade the old parts and be done with it. Most of the performance of these speakers comes from the use of Beryllium dome midranges and tweeters not through some magic capacitor used in the crossover.
For those still interested here are some recent further findings on the YAM 1000.
The cables after the crossover include one for bass one for mid one for treble and one for neutral. Each has its own plug connector both on the speaker and the x-over box. This then allows each one to be individually changed to the cable of my fancy.
The Bass interconnect has proven to be of greatest fascination and appears to have one of the biggest impacts on the overall sound.
solid core versus multifilament, or shielded versus non shielded does not appear to show any particular patterns. I presume technically the cable is having a profound effect on electrical parameters such as inductance. Every one is praising the berryllium drivers yet what i have just experienced may shock some of you as it did me.
Most of this thread has been consumed by talk of active versus passive, yet in my humble little world I am seeing genuinely large changes i.e Changing the entire characteristics of the sound by changing just the bass drivers post x-over speaker cable interconnect of about three feet in length!!!!!!!!!!!!
Here are the findings
Naim mulitstranded copper speaker cable _ warm sound vocals have more body and warmth to them perhaps a little over done. Not exciting in terms of sound staging and detail or presence factor.
Audio Note SPx - as soon as this one went in the ENTIRE sound spectrum seemed to snap into focus, guitars felt like individual wires were being plucked. There was clarity to the complex tones in a strummed guitar. Voices had more air around them and took up an almost spooky holographic presence.
NVA cables. Leaner sounding almost equal clarity to the audio note but robbed the notes a little from their natural decay, leaving you feeling a little short changed.
DIY 99.99% silver with a silver braid multistranded litz
clarity once again improved but sounding overall more lean and a little more artificial sounding.
VAL cables , multistranded silver on copper and heavily insulated both mechanically and electrically. When positioned before the x-over this was the best cable out of the lot but the minute it was used to feed the bass driver, the whole sound collapsed and became almost confused sounding . I had great difficulty following and understanding the chords of the guitars!!!!
Who said changing passive components was futile??????. The bass unit seems to contribute to the entire sound clarity, air and tonal balance, potentially a far greater influence than the berrylium drivers. Although no doubt there is a synergy going on here.
I have not mentioned the lowest bass notes simply because i was not convinced that there was as much change to these notes as there was to the rest of the sound spectrum!!!!!!!
The cables after the crossover include one for bass one for mid one for treble and one for neutral. Each has its own plug connector both on the speaker and the x-over box. This then allows each one to be individually changed to the cable of my fancy.
The Bass interconnect has proven to be of greatest fascination and appears to have one of the biggest impacts on the overall sound.
solid core versus multifilament, or shielded versus non shielded does not appear to show any particular patterns. I presume technically the cable is having a profound effect on electrical parameters such as inductance. Every one is praising the berryllium drivers yet what i have just experienced may shock some of you as it did me.
Most of this thread has been consumed by talk of active versus passive, yet in my humble little world I am seeing genuinely large changes i.e Changing the entire characteristics of the sound by changing just the bass drivers post x-over speaker cable interconnect of about three feet in length!!!!!!!!!!!!
Here are the findings
Naim mulitstranded copper speaker cable _ warm sound vocals have more body and warmth to them perhaps a little over done. Not exciting in terms of sound staging and detail or presence factor.
Audio Note SPx - as soon as this one went in the ENTIRE sound spectrum seemed to snap into focus, guitars felt like individual wires were being plucked. There was clarity to the complex tones in a strummed guitar. Voices had more air around them and took up an almost spooky holographic presence.
NVA cables. Leaner sounding almost equal clarity to the audio note but robbed the notes a little from their natural decay, leaving you feeling a little short changed.
DIY 99.99% silver with a silver braid multistranded litz
clarity once again improved but sounding overall more lean and a little more artificial sounding.
VAL cables , multistranded silver on copper and heavily insulated both mechanically and electrically. When positioned before the x-over this was the best cable out of the lot but the minute it was used to feed the bass driver, the whole sound collapsed and became almost confused sounding . I had great difficulty following and understanding the chords of the guitars!!!!
Who said changing passive components was futile??????. The bass unit seems to contribute to the entire sound clarity, air and tonal balance, potentially a far greater influence than the berrylium drivers. Although no doubt there is a synergy going on here.
I have not mentioned the lowest bass notes simply because i was not convinced that there was as much change to these notes as there was to the rest of the sound spectrum!!!!!!!
audiojoy said:
How can such a short piece of cable have such a dramatic effect on the inductance when the total inductance will be dominated by the parasitic inductance of the voice coil which happens to be quite non linear ??
When you did these changes did you manage to evaluate it using double blind testing or did you make the same cardinal mistake that most audio gurus do and were actually quite aware of what you were testing ??
Also if you think that such a short piece of interconnect cable makes such a dramatic difference are you willing to go the next step and and make sure that the thin wire used on the voice coils of these speakers are rewound with similar materials as the interconnect ?? If not why not ??
Dear Snoopy I am not amazed that you are unable to believe or even recognize the differences i am speaking of. You need to be educated on the set up of hifi systems and how to get the best from them from a listening point. You may also potentially have poor sensory perception when it comes to sound, because in double blind studies with two friends these changes were day and night.
i have had numerous audiophile and recording studio friends (as I live close to the BBC and a lot of my clients are studio engineers)read your ' listening and comparison'comments and are totally shocked by your lack of experience in hearing differences in sound produced by a good hifi system by simply changing a single interconnect cable.
You seem to enjoy the freedom you have been given on this forum to make remarks that few others will agree with. No doubt you will do your usual fun game of breaking down every comment I make and quote, followed by your usual unfounded negative and derogatory comments.
All I can say is that you are letting yourself down by denying such a well known finding.
Luke
i have had numerous audiophile and recording studio friends (as I live close to the BBC and a lot of my clients are studio engineers)read your ' listening and comparison'comments and are totally shocked by your lack of experience in hearing differences in sound produced by a good hifi system by simply changing a single interconnect cable.
You seem to enjoy the freedom you have been given on this forum to make remarks that few others will agree with. No doubt you will do your usual fun game of breaking down every comment I make and quote, followed by your usual unfounded negative and derogatory comments.
All I can say is that you are letting yourself down by denying such a well known finding.
Luke
I don't think that most people understand what a double blind test really is, and under the conditions of a double blind test, they are biased towards null. What you heard with your friends was very likely highly biased and far from a double blind format. That said, it seems apparent that Snoopy's role in just about every thread is to be an obnoxious bore. Ignore the troll, you have nothing to answer to him for. We are highly impressionable creatures and if we hear differences that are minute or not even physically there, but without them we can't enjoy our system, it seems foolish to try to avoid them if they better our perception of the sound. The best way to handle people like snoopy is to either ignore him or just conclude that he is right but rather than being a miserable wretch, you choose to enjoy and play with your system.
Guys, FWIW here is my take on this sort of thing:
There are large numbers of people on both sides of this issue -- folks who insist that there is no rational reason why such a seemingly trivial change should make a significant difference (and that it is impossible to measure any significant difference), versus folks who insist that significant differences are indeed audible, at least in some cases. Folks in the former group might suggest doing a double blind A/B test with a group of veteran audiophile listeners, expecting that under such controlled conditions no significant differences would be consistently noted, etc. We've all been around this bush dozens of times in different aspects of audio, and it seems to me that people rarely move from one group to the other, although there are probably degrees of fervence with which the various opinions are held in each group. It seems to me that it is not worth "getting on each other's case" over this sort of thing . . . for me, if people are deriving delight from their audio passion/pastime, that's what counts. Different folks will be pressing their respective pleasure buttons in different ways, and that's okay.
-- Chris
P.S. Edit: dnewma04 posted while I was composing my own post and I just wanted to clarify that my reference to "double blind test" is not referring to anyone in particular.
There are large numbers of people on both sides of this issue -- folks who insist that there is no rational reason why such a seemingly trivial change should make a significant difference (and that it is impossible to measure any significant difference), versus folks who insist that significant differences are indeed audible, at least in some cases. Folks in the former group might suggest doing a double blind A/B test with a group of veteran audiophile listeners, expecting that under such controlled conditions no significant differences would be consistently noted, etc. We've all been around this bush dozens of times in different aspects of audio, and it seems to me that people rarely move from one group to the other, although there are probably degrees of fervence with which the various opinions are held in each group. It seems to me that it is not worth "getting on each other's case" over this sort of thing . . . for me, if people are deriving delight from their audio passion/pastime, that's what counts. Different folks will be pressing their respective pleasure buttons in different ways, and that's okay.
-- Chris
P.S. Edit: dnewma04 posted while I was composing my own post and I just wanted to clarify that my reference to "double blind test" is not referring to anyone in particular.
audiojoy said:
Why should I not have the freedom to make comments which disagree with the majority ??
Your "well known finding" appears to be nothing more than your own biased opinions. The reason why you disagree with me is because you don't have a basic understanding of electrical circuit theory. To make up for this you resort to fallacies and claims that only paranormal science can explain.
If you and your friends claim that you can hear dramatic differences by replacing a short piece of interconnect then why don't you take up the Pepsi challenge and submit your modifications to proper scientific scrutiny which includes double blind testing 😉 If it is proven that this mod dramatically improves your speakers then most likely it will improve other speakers for the same reasoning. Somehow I just can't imagine everyone unscrewing their speakers in order to make this mod 😉
dnewma04 said:
No one is not saying to experiment and enjoy your system but please don't make extraordinary claims without backing them up with evidence. It's OK to say something is your opinion but to infer a generalization that is set in stone and that applies to everyone else requires a bit more substantiation than a few other people's casual opinions 😉
cdwitmer said:
It's an easy issue to solve. Just ask the people who make the extraordinary claims to take the audio equivalent of the Pepsi challenge and 99 times out of 100 they will decline and will offer you a whole lot of rationalizations as to why they shouldn't take the challenge 😉
snoopy said:
Many years ago when I had a "basic understanding of electrical circuit theory", I was also laughing at cable differences. Luckily I've learned since that things are normally more complicated and that cables are an important part of a good system.
Andre Visser said:
And you should still be laughing at the absurd prices people are willing to pay for these things 😀
Like I said if you are so sure of yourself then why don't you try the Pepsi challenge and see what happens ?? 😉 When people start paying more for their cables than the worth of the speakers and/or amplifier that they are connected to then there is something seriously wrong with their reasoning
Those people who tout the benefits of certain cables usually ignore the effects of meters and meters of ordinary conductors used in their crossover components such as the inductors, meters of tin foil used in the capacitors , and nichrome wire used in wire wound resistors !! Not to mention the meters of relatively thin copper wire used in the voice coils of the speaker drivers. Somehow all of this is not important because it is not visible or not easy to change as plugging in a different set of speaker cables. That's what makes the whole issue even more absurd !! Also none of these claims usually stand up to any sort of scrutiny that's why you never see the people making these claims willing to undergo the audio equivalent of the Pepsi challenge 😉
snoopy said:
I agree that the prices of some cables are absurd but we are talking about cable effects and not prices.
snoopy said:When people start paying more for their cables than the worth of the speakers and/or amplifier that they are connected to then there is something seriously wrong with their reasoning
Agreed.
snoopy said:
Cables are just as much part of a system as every other component (including crossover), there is little or nothing to gain with good cables if the rest of the system is lacking, but a good system can be ruined by poor cables.
Now you want to make it difficult, I don't make them, I only use them. 😀
To start with, I would say high purity copper or silver and a Polyethylene, Foamed Polyethylene or Teflon dielectric, combined with some quality connectors. Correct conductor dia. also have an influence on the sound.
Then you have to play with different cables to find the one or combination that suit your system and taste. Cables normally influence detail and staging but can even change the tonal perception of a system.
To start with, I would say high purity copper or silver and a Polyethylene, Foamed Polyethylene or Teflon dielectric, combined with some quality connectors. Correct conductor dia. also have an influence on the sound.
Then you have to play with different cables to find the one or combination that suit your system and taste. Cables normally influence detail and staging but can even change the tonal perception of a system.
Folks,
Snoopy is a software/electronic engineer. His stand is pure objectivism; if it can't be measured, or accurately divined in DBT, it's not there. This is merely another position, albeit extreme, on the audiophile belief spectrum - a bush we have been chasing around futilely since the forties.
He is a relatively young man, refuses to divulge his true identity, and while I have offered to buy him a coffee to talk things over in private (we are both in Melbourne) he categorically refuses. In light of his preference for confrontation, this refusal to reveal identity and to converse rationally face to face is highly suspicious.
I have a successful business designing and selling amps, and I know a thing or two. I know, for example, that we cannot measure prized audiophile features like 'emotional engagement', something tubes do rather well. Certainly this feature is subjective, highly so, but it is an important factor in the decision to purchase. I can only conclude that all his posts are a deliberate taunt, he has time on his hands (perhaps someone else is paying for this time??), he is here for sport, and he lacks the fortitude to confront the people he routinely insults.
Don't waste your time. This is a grand joke for him. His knowledge of audio is strictly objective, based on text book math.
Snoopy, the offer stands, I'd still rather like to meet you. You are rude, but you are interesting.
Hugh
Snoopy is a software/electronic engineer. His stand is pure objectivism; if it can't be measured, or accurately divined in DBT, it's not there. This is merely another position, albeit extreme, on the audiophile belief spectrum - a bush we have been chasing around futilely since the forties.
He is a relatively young man, refuses to divulge his true identity, and while I have offered to buy him a coffee to talk things over in private (we are both in Melbourne) he categorically refuses. In light of his preference for confrontation, this refusal to reveal identity and to converse rationally face to face is highly suspicious.
I have a successful business designing and selling amps, and I know a thing or two. I know, for example, that we cannot measure prized audiophile features like 'emotional engagement', something tubes do rather well. Certainly this feature is subjective, highly so, but it is an important factor in the decision to purchase. I can only conclude that all his posts are a deliberate taunt, he has time on his hands (perhaps someone else is paying for this time??), he is here for sport, and he lacks the fortitude to confront the people he routinely insults.
Don't waste your time. This is a grand joke for him. His knowledge of audio is strictly objective, based on text book math.
Snoopy, the offer stands, I'd still rather like to meet you. You are rude, but you are interesting.
Hugh
AKSA said:
With all due respects Hugh I do evaluate audio equipment by listening to it as well but because of my education I have a better understanding of cause and effect relationships in audio equipment and I don't suffer fools easily 😉
I have read some of the comments you have made on your own forums and can understand your resentment towards people with proper technical training as you seem to lack that yourself. You can't make up for a lack of proper technical training by hiding behind the "subjectivist" banner. Sooner or later the astute amongst us will see through it 😉
I don't mind having a cup of coffee with you but fear that we would not have much in common and I don't believe it would achieve anything at all except for you to use it to your advantage in some sort of sinister way 🙁
I'm not interested in snake oil merchants who charge a premium for sub standard audio equipment by taking advantage of the ignorance of others. I won't stand for that in any situation nor will I stand for extraordinary claims backed up by no evidence other than ones own opinion and wild imagination 🙁
Andre Visser said:
Doesn't this same reasoning apply to crossover inductors, capacitors and resistors as well as driver voice coils ??
Why should the issue of cable composition only start at the amplifier and end at the speaker box ?? Isn't the internals of the speaker box just as importance ??
SY said:
It depends on what the "it" refers to. No scientific measurement instrument can measure something that is purely imaginary.
To determine if something is imaginary or not you need to submit a piece of audio equipment to proper objective analysis using double blind testing. Like I said before are you willing to take the Pepsi challenge ??
Also if you can't draw any valid conclusions from DBT then the claim must be completely bogus or imaginary 😉
And who is Will Rogers ??
snoopy said:
Isn't it what I've said in my previous post?
Andre Visser said:
The problem with your reasoning is that if you view a system in small enough parts, nothing will have a significant effect on sound quality compared to the rest of the system, that implies that a mini hi-fi should sound the same as a high-end system.