Andre Visser said:
The point I was trying to make is that most people spend megabucks on cables and ignore the speaker internals which makes their claims for dramatic improvements so much more absurd.
The point I'm trying to make is that some things have a dramatic effect so why waste your time with the things that only have a very little effect or no effect at all 😉
snoopy said:
You first sort out everything that have a dramatic effect, then you worry about the "little" things. Sometimes they are not so little anymore if the rest of the system is good.
I think of myself as being about as objective as just about anyone. You won't find any tweaky type stuff in my system, for instance. However, I have talked extensively with a research psychologist from a major university here in the states about the effectiveness of DBT in the field of audio. He is the one that told me it wouldn't be the most effective testing method and would certainly be biased towards a null result when changes were small. I asked what kind of testing would be necessary to adequately test minute changes like we are discussing and he said that it would be far to extensive to have any interest in trying to perform it himself. He was quite sure there would be methods of testing that would be greatly superior to DBT, however.
DBT is an excellent tool, but it's not the only one, and it's certainly not the best one according to people who are in that particular field.
DBT is an excellent tool, but it's not the only one, and it's certainly not the best one according to people who are in that particular field.
Two areas where I do agree with Snoopy is in the ridiculousness of marketing in the industry and all industries for that matter. And secondly, the focus on what matters most and makes the most dramatic differences gets lost in the shuffle. It'll take quite a while before my system attains a performance level that would make me consider upgrading things like wires to extract that last minute detail for inordinate sums of money.
Andre Visser said:
Yes things like 5-10% distortion in your loudspeakers !! Surely this is a more pressing matter than your cables ??
Ever wondered why loudspeaker manufacturers don't publish distortion performance for their speakers 😉
dnewma04 said:
IMHO if the DBT yields a null result then the claim is not worth worrying about and you shouldn't be wasting money trying to achieve it which is what the audio snake oil merchants want you to do 🙁
But they are biased towards a null result because of the conditions, from what I could infer. I'd wish that someone would invest the money to do a proper test that could remove more biases, probably not possible to remove all.
The Making of a Guru
Hi
On the point that Snoopy is making I think it is perfectly valid for him to ask for some proof or challenge somebodies audio beliefs. In the past 15 years I have seen so many people with no technical knowledge go from doing diy audio for semingly just for fun reasons, suddenly turn into Gurus making claims about this and that .
Now the problem with this is that other people believe them and follow their advice only to ultimately waste both their time (mostly) and money. I have never seen any Guru deliver any product that gives a real improvement that translates across everybodies system, which is real proof of a fully reseached product (Pepsi challenge).
Good products are not usually just about one thing , to make a good product requires lots of things a done right, not just a piece of wire 1inch long made of pure silver placed between two components. Now I am not saying you cannot hear the difference you can but is it an improvement.
There are lots of good designers out there who know that passive components have their own sound but along with this they have technical kowledge. People with no technical knowlegde assume that technical people do not believe in such things , they do, its just that this knowledge alone is not enough to make the best product which you can make a claim about .
What I find personally offensive is that the person thats goes from regular DIY dude to Guru gets angry and defensive when challenged (in my experience) which I take to mean not even they believe their claims. Why don't they just go forth and make a competively priced product and get it out there in the market, of course they never do this either they use price point as the only technique to indicate product superiority.
Regards
Arthur
Hi
On the point that Snoopy is making I think it is perfectly valid for him to ask for some proof or challenge somebodies audio beliefs. In the past 15 years I have seen so many people with no technical knowledge go from doing diy audio for semingly just for fun reasons, suddenly turn into Gurus making claims about this and that .
Now the problem with this is that other people believe them and follow their advice only to ultimately waste both their time (mostly) and money. I have never seen any Guru deliver any product that gives a real improvement that translates across everybodies system, which is real proof of a fully reseached product (Pepsi challenge).
Good products are not usually just about one thing , to make a good product requires lots of things a done right, not just a piece of wire 1inch long made of pure silver placed between two components. Now I am not saying you cannot hear the difference you can but is it an improvement.
There are lots of good designers out there who know that passive components have their own sound but along with this they have technical kowledge. People with no technical knowlegde assume that technical people do not believe in such things , they do, its just that this knowledge alone is not enough to make the best product which you can make a claim about .
What I find personally offensive is that the person thats goes from regular DIY dude to Guru gets angry and defensive when challenged (in my experience) which I take to mean not even they believe their claims. Why don't they just go forth and make a competively priced product and get it out there in the market, of course they never do this either they use price point as the only technique to indicate product superiority.
Regards
Arthur
AKSA said:
Sir, I must strenuously object and point to the arguments regarding the best sounding string for Marconi's kite.
SY said:
Yes you are right. I forgot to factor in the price of fish on Mars 😀 That is very important as well 😉
Do you mean to tell me that in all cases of bogus or extraordinary claims regarding audio equipment that you can only tell the differences when you have knowledge of the equipment being used ?? But as soon as this knowledge is taken away then all of a sudden you can no longer tell the difference ??
That is quite bazaar in itself 😱 I didn't know that evaluating audio equipment closely resembled quantum mechanics and Heisenberg's uncertainty principle where the outcome is dependent on the observer ??
Sounds like you audio gurus are just making excuses for not taking the Pepsi challenge 😉
Snoopy,
Are you saying, with conviction:
#1 That Hugh Dean has little or no technical background and could not possibly design proper audio components, and
#2 That Hugh Dean is a 'snake oil merchant who charges a premium for sub standard audio equipment by taking advantage of the ignorance of others'.
Now there's commitment, is this correct, yes or no?
Hugh
Are you saying, with conviction:
#1 That Hugh Dean has little or no technical background and could not possibly design proper audio components, and
#2 That Hugh Dean is a 'snake oil merchant who charges a premium for sub standard audio equipment by taking advantage of the ignorance of others'.
Now there's commitment, is this correct, yes or no?
Hugh
No, I'm telling you that you've posed a false dilemma. You may be a highly trained engineer (I don't know, but that's what you claim), but you don't seem to know much about experimental design and interpretation for sensory testing.
Now, what does ANY of this have to do with Yamaha NS1000 crossover tweaks? Nothing. So let's get back to that, shall we?
AKSA said:
Tell me something Hugh, is this the sort of half intelligent comment you'd read in a peer reviewed engineering journal ??
Snoopy,
Get to the point. Answer my question; either stand behind your claim or withdraw it. One or the other.
Correct, yes, or no?
Hugh
Get to the point. Answer my question; either stand behind your claim or withdraw it. One or the other.
Correct, yes, or no?
Hugh
SY said:
Correction. I don't understand your experimental design methodology that yields little in the way of objective improvements.
Your assertion of a false dilemma is just your opinion and is based on the fact that DBT is invalid in drawing any reasonable conclusions. Sorry I don't share your assertions 😉
I'd like to see some of your claimed experimentation that actually reduces the 30% distortion in a typical low frequency driver to reasonable levels of less than 1% or reduces standing wave patterns in the diaphragm ?? Can you do this by playing around with interconnects 😉
Regarding the NS1000's like I said before just replace the faulty components or upgrade them and put the thing back together and enjoy 😉 Forget about silly pieces of wire that make virtually no difference. This is just being totally irrational.
AKSA said:
Point #1. It's obvious that you have no engineering qualifications and are hiding behind your claimed gimmicks that anybody else could easily reproduce. You're the first one to jump on Leo Simpson from Silicon Chip magazine as well as criticize anyone else who objectively scrutinizes their own designs with proper test equipment so you shouldn't throw stones in glass houses 🙁
Point #2. I didn't specifically claim that you are a snake oil merchant. Those are your words not mine !! That comment was made as a generalization but now that you have mentioned it you have just dug your own grave
Snoopy,
Leo does not have engineering quals, actually, he is a BComm, but I do not upbraid him for that or for his POV......
So it appears that only engineers can design amplifiers. This is a load of rubbish, elitist nonsense.
It is interesting that when pushed you retract, lacking any courage to stand behind your accusations. It was always obvious what you meant, but would not outright say.
You are wrong, however, it is you who has dug his own grave.
Hugh
Leo does not have engineering quals, actually, he is a BComm, but I do not upbraid him for that or for his POV......
So it appears that only engineers can design amplifiers. This is a load of rubbish, elitist nonsense.
It is interesting that when pushed you retract, lacking any courage to stand behind your accusations. It was always obvious what you meant, but would not outright say.
You are wrong, however, it is you who has dug his own grave.
Hugh
Where in the world did you ever see me write that? Or did you just make it up?
Nope, it's based on my own professional expertise and 20 years of experience in sensory testing.