Modified circuit
All
Being an absolute electronics newbie. I've been awake for the lasr 24 hours playing with jh6you's XSOZ in SIMetrix, COOL toy!! (SIMetrix I mean ;-))
Well, in the course of playing I read up a bit on the original Zen, started playing with different component / values and generally just enjoyed the heck out simulating an analogue circuit.
I've tried for the best bandwidth possible, and since I intend to build this (if it isn't absolute rubbish after my modifications) I've gone and bought a bulk pack of 1/4w thin film resistors, so advice as to where I should parallel 2/more higher value units would be appreciated.
If better qualified brains than mine would take a squiz at this and tell me how badly I've mangled an excellent circuit I would be extremely grateful!
I have attached a zip file with emf's of the circuit with a frequency response plot (-3db lowpass 179.79 kHz, -3db highpass 2.444Hz 26v flat from 12Hz to 41kHz) aslo included is emf of schematic and SIMetrix schematic file)
Regards
Jan
All
Being an absolute electronics newbie. I've been awake for the lasr 24 hours playing with jh6you's XSOZ in SIMetrix, COOL toy!! (SIMetrix I mean ;-))
Well, in the course of playing I read up a bit on the original Zen, started playing with different component / values and generally just enjoyed the heck out simulating an analogue circuit.
I've tried for the best bandwidth possible, and since I intend to build this (if it isn't absolute rubbish after my modifications) I've gone and bought a bulk pack of 1/4w thin film resistors, so advice as to where I should parallel 2/more higher value units would be appreciated.
If better qualified brains than mine would take a squiz at this and tell me how badly I've mangled an excellent circuit I would be extremely grateful!
I have attached a zip file with emf's of the circuit with a frequency response plot (-3db lowpass 179.79 kHz, -3db highpass 2.444Hz 26v flat from 12Hz to 41kHz) aslo included is emf of schematic and SIMetrix schematic file)
Regards
Jan
Hi Jan
The above short quate from another thread is to inform about the output power of 40 watts into 8 ohms. Referring to your simulation circuits, I just like to recommend you to build it. You will experience a different sound from Zen. Microphones come closer to each music performer so that the soundstage is getting wider, cleaner (reduced noise and distortion), detailed and cheerful. The stereo image and the soundstage depth are great too.
It might be even better than ZV5...
The power amp runs on 1.32A bias. If possible, however, I would like to recommend a choice of power transformers and heat sinks large enough for 2A bias, just in case...
Enjoy.
JH
PS. I suppose Henrik will help you for about the simulation.
Sproggit
Stay close to jh6you´s scematic.
You can´t use zvn3310A as replacement for IRFP240, here You want a powermosfet, and this one also need extensive heatsinking.
If You should do something, then change the sourceresistors of the diff. pair from 1.5 Ohm to about 4 to 5 Ohm, this would give You much more X.
The amount of X-feedback is related to the efficience of the diffrential stage. If You short the right input to ground, You will only find some 15% at the right output related to the left output. This means You only get 15% of the X-benefits. If You raise the resistance to about 5 Ohm, then You will get about 80% X-benefit. If You made a Constant Curren Source You would get it all, 100%.
Stay close to jh6you´s scematic.
You can´t use zvn3310A as replacement for IRFP240, here You want a powermosfet, and this one also need extensive heatsinking.
If You should do something, then change the sourceresistors of the diff. pair from 1.5 Ohm to about 4 to 5 Ohm, this would give You much more X.
The amount of X-feedback is related to the efficience of the diffrential stage. If You short the right input to ground, You will only find some 15% at the right output related to the left output. This means You only get 15% of the X-benefits. If You raise the resistance to about 5 Ohm, then You will get about 80% X-benefit. If You made a Constant Curren Source You would get it all, 100%.
I have listened to BOSOZ and XSOZV2 everyday for 45 days. I think that the time has passed long enough for the electrons to break through the whole path and for me to be used to the nice sound.
Last night I picked up one of my favorite CDs, Bob Dylan, Time Out of Mind, and was listening to the songs of his long-experienced and honest voices. By the way while he was singing the song, Not Dark Yet, I thought, yeah... the output of BOSOZ are with 47uF electrolytic capacitors and how the sound would change if I parallel them with nice small film caps...
I stood up and opened a box containing Icel-160V-1.0uF-1% film capacitors. I grabbed four of them and soldered them to each end of the 47uF caps parallel.
I replayed the same CD from the beginning to experience any different sound with the additional film capacitors. ???... The long-experienced and honest voices were the same. I smelled the same feeling of the songs. The same taste. ???... I might need to wait time until I could realize any difference in sound...
Anyhow, you could see the photo about my work.
JH
Last night I picked up one of my favorite CDs, Bob Dylan, Time Out of Mind, and was listening to the songs of his long-experienced and honest voices. By the way while he was singing the song, Not Dark Yet, I thought, yeah... the output of BOSOZ are with 47uF electrolytic capacitors and how the sound would change if I parallel them with nice small film caps...
I stood up and opened a box containing Icel-160V-1.0uF-1% film capacitors. I grabbed four of them and soldered them to each end of the 47uF caps parallel.
I replayed the same CD from the beginning to experience any different sound with the additional film capacitors. ???... The long-experienced and honest voices were the same. I smelled the same feeling of the songs. The same taste. ???... I might need to wait time until I could realize any difference in sound...
Anyhow, you could see the photo about my work.
JH
Attachments
jh6you
jh6you,
that are the same experiences as i made.
the only thing to try is to change the 47uF`s to completeley other ones. As bypasses to the electrolytics i can also hear no difference.
in my Bosoz i replaced the signal path resistors to expensive exotic ones - too -without any differences in sound quality. only, when i turn one of the bypassed film caps other way round there is difference in sound, as described in former posts.
since i am building the X`s now in fine cases i am attempted to use best parts only, but i think it`s waste of money.
But i am curious about Henrik`s experiences when building x`s with audio note parts...
Ralf
jh6you said:
jh6you,
that are the same experiences as i made.
the only thing to try is to change the 47uF`s to completeley other ones. As bypasses to the electrolytics i can also hear no difference.
in my Bosoz i replaced the signal path resistors to expensive exotic ones - too -without any differences in sound quality. only, when i turn one of the bypassed film caps other way round there is difference in sound, as described in former posts.
since i am building the X`s now in fine cases i am attempted to use best parts only, but i think it`s waste of money.
But i am curious about Henrik`s experiences when building x`s with audio note parts...
Ralf
jh6you and ralf
I have almost finished my XBOSOZ, I hoped I could finish it this weekend, but I doubt it.
I have almost finished my XBOSOZ, I hoped I could finish it this weekend, but I doubt it.
I happened to read audio advertisements claiming that they proudly use H resistors, J capacitors, S internal wires... And, I happened to see who believes such advertisements and try to blindly replace resistors, capacitors and wires for their audio equipments. I am afraid to say that I was one of them.
These days I have a different approach. The question is which electronic components are fit for the circuit. It could be exotic components or reasonably good ones or surprisingly cheap ones or all of them or any of them.
I want to see not only the “exotic” grade of components, but also the “right” grade. Of course, if the exotic grade covers up the right grade technically and I have good budget, I might buy only the exotic grade.
🙂
JH
right ones
hi,
i think the biggest challenge is to find the "right ones", with which the amp sounds best.
But i can be very expensive until you find the right ones.
last week i bought some siemens MKV capacitors for building in in my final version of X Bosoz.
i bought 8 pieces of 22uF, absolutely exotic ones. they are filled with oil, which you can hear, when you shake it.
each of them meassures 80mm in diameter and 200mm in height and weights about 2,4 pounds. Costs: 150$, each.
they are nos types of 1985 and more expensiv than jensens.
that means, that my XBosoz will get bigger than many power amps on this world...
i have made experiences with siemens mkv in crossovers, and it`s revealing with jenesen paper in oil.
I hope they sound good, nevertheless -they look giant.
next days i will post a pic of them.
...projects by the fanatics, for the fanatics....😀
Ralf
hi,
i think the biggest challenge is to find the "right ones", with which the amp sounds best.
But i can be very expensive until you find the right ones.
last week i bought some siemens MKV capacitors for building in in my final version of X Bosoz.
i bought 8 pieces of 22uF, absolutely exotic ones. they are filled with oil, which you can hear, when you shake it.
each of them meassures 80mm in diameter and 200mm in height and weights about 2,4 pounds. Costs: 150$, each.
they are nos types of 1985 and more expensiv than jensens.
that means, that my XBosoz will get bigger than many power amps on this world...
i have made experiences with siemens mkv in crossovers, and it`s revealing with jenesen paper in oil.
I hope they sound good, nevertheless -they look giant.
next days i will post a pic of them.
...projects by the fanatics, for the fanatics....😀
Ralf
Re: right ones
it remains to do some thinkings
in the line of your statements
thanksralf said:
it remains to do some thinkings
in the line of your statements
Re: right ones
😉
JH
Thanks, Ralf. I will learn the right components at the cost of your experiments.ralf said:
😉
JH
that`s it
..that`s it,
but it will not work, when everybody waits, until others have tested components.
my first attempts were with ero MKP 1840, 6,8uF`s - cascaded to 33uF .
then bypassed with MKP from intertechnik, germany - hard to hear differences.
then bypassed by Styroflexes, 40 year old nos - hard to hear diffrences
then substituted with siemens MKV 900 volt types - the same-
next i will substitute with my new monster caps...
i`ll tell you the results next time...
i also substituted signal pass resistors with nos- ones called "Kohleschicht- resistors" which are selled from stein hifi systems, germany - for tree or four euro/piece- same result
O.k i could say that i heared ´small differences. the sound got warmer and so on. but i doubt, that i would hear it in blind test.
it`s not so, that my hifi ears are bad, i hear differences in sound between original soz/bosoz and xsoz/xbosoz - but i want to close out the psychlogical phenomenes like: oh i bought capacitors and resistors for half the price of a used car and therefor they sound best in the world - (otherwise i am a crazy guy who spends that amounts of money for nothing...
)
Many High-enders i know hear that what they wish to hear...
Nevertheless i am very interested in Henriks results with his parts.
I`m waiting nervous
Ralf
..that`s it,
but it will not work, when everybody waits, until others have tested components.
my first attempts were with ero MKP 1840, 6,8uF`s - cascaded to 33uF .
then bypassed with MKP from intertechnik, germany - hard to hear differences.
then bypassed by Styroflexes, 40 year old nos - hard to hear diffrences
then substituted with siemens MKV 900 volt types - the same-
next i will substitute with my new monster caps...
i`ll tell you the results next time...
i also substituted signal pass resistors with nos- ones called "Kohleschicht- resistors" which are selled from stein hifi systems, germany - for tree or four euro/piece- same result
O.k i could say that i heared ´small differences. the sound got warmer and so on. but i doubt, that i would hear it in blind test.
it`s not so, that my hifi ears are bad, i hear differences in sound between original soz/bosoz and xsoz/xbosoz - but i want to close out the psychlogical phenomenes like: oh i bought capacitors and resistors for half the price of a used car and therefor they sound best in the world - (otherwise i am a crazy guy who spends that amounts of money for nothing...
)Many High-enders i know hear that what they wish to hear...
Nevertheless i am very interested in Henriks results with his parts.
I`m waiting nervous
Ralf
Peter
source components are 1/4 watt metalfilm resistors.
and in caps (in signal path)- what i have laying around. that are older ero mkp`s, new glimmer`s
old styroflexes (just bought 1000 pcs), some mkp`s of different manufakturers, MKV`s of siemens, different types, jensen oil paper.
i`m playing around with them, to get sure to have the best parts build in.
these days the resistors and other standard parts of my first attempt of AlephX will arrive me. When the first listening impression will satisfy me, the game with changing parts will go on...
the bigest differences are, when they are tested in signalpath of crossover. Here i can hear differences between each cap.
regards,
Ralf
.Peter Daniel said:
source components are 1/4 watt metalfilm resistors.
and in caps (in signal path)- what i have laying around. that are older ero mkp`s, new glimmer`s
old styroflexes (just bought 1000 pcs), some mkp`s of different manufakturers, MKV`s of siemens, different types, jensen oil paper.
i`m playing around with them, to get sure to have the best parts build in.
these days the resistors and other standard parts of my first attempt of AlephX will arrive me. When the first listening impression will satisfy me, the game with changing parts will go on...
the bigest differences are, when they are tested in signalpath of crossover. Here i can hear differences between each cap.
regards,
Ralf
Ralf
The questin on what parts to use is a hard one.
My first SOZ was build with standard parts, and my next with exotic parts. The difference was clearly audible, but not a revolution at all. I do think, that the sins committed by parts in the X-feedbackloop is significantly cancled by the X.
The change from no X to X was the greatest improvement I ever done. Construction is the most important issue.
My test-XSOZ, wich consists of my old SOZ with exotic parts and some new standard parts to add the X.
I did one test on this test-XSOZ, I compared 2*22000uF Panasonic HA with 1*4700uF Blackgate Standard (wich was totally new, BG claims that they have to "play" more than 300 hours to reach max.) in my powersupply after the regulator. The test was clearly in favour of the Black Gate in any acpect. But if I got value for money, I don´t know, hard to say. And may be I heard wat I expected, so I do need to do some more tests before I am shure. Some times You se what You want to se.
The questin on what parts to use is a hard one.
My first SOZ was build with standard parts, and my next with exotic parts. The difference was clearly audible, but not a revolution at all. I do think, that the sins committed by parts in the X-feedbackloop is significantly cancled by the X.
The change from no X to X was the greatest improvement I ever done. Construction is the most important issue.
My test-XSOZ, wich consists of my old SOZ with exotic parts and some new standard parts to add the X.
I did one test on this test-XSOZ, I compared 2*22000uF Panasonic HA with 1*4700uF Blackgate Standard (wich was totally new, BG claims that they have to "play" more than 300 hours to reach max.) in my powersupply after the regulator. The test was clearly in favour of the Black Gate in any acpect. But if I got value for money, I don´t know, hard to say. And may be I heard wat I expected, so I do need to do some more tests before I am shure. Some times You se what You want to se.
Henrik
I believe in this. High probability of sound improvement comes more from the different circuit designs than from the different passive parts. If I had saved total cost spent so far to buy non-effective exotic parts, etc., I could have bought at least one Pass X-150. But, we are diyAudio fanatics, as Ralf says. We feel happy ourselves in changing parts, and we have budget for this as Casanova have his budget for changing partners. 🙂
I look forward to hearing from you about the result of your new X-amps, and about your conclusion.
JH
I believe in this. High probability of sound improvement comes more from the different circuit designs than from the different passive parts. If I had saved total cost spent so far to buy non-effective exotic parts, etc., I could have bought at least one Pass X-150. But, we are diyAudio fanatics, as Ralf says. We feel happy ourselves in changing parts, and we have budget for this as Casanova have his budget for changing partners. 🙂
I look forward to hearing from you about the result of your new X-amps, and about your conclusion.
JH
Henrick & yh6you
Thanks for all the amazing info!
I have a question....
What would I have to change on the x-soz to drive headphones (Sennheiser HD 570's)?
Thanks again for your help
Regards
Jan
Thanks for all the amazing info!
I have a question....
What would I have to change on the x-soz to drive headphones (Sennheiser HD 570's)?
Thanks again for your help
Regards
Jan
Questions.
I am on the brink of building my pre-amp. Decided on BoSoZ, but now thinking about XBoSoZ.
I intend to use XBoSoZ with Aleph30:
(I did try to follow this thread from page 1, did get some answers, also got confused couple of times, so please excuse for recurring questions.)
Questions (All on XBoSoZ)
1a. Which will work better with Aleph30 - X'ed or normal BoSoZ?
1. R115 - is it just a plain jumper -short?
2. The sum of R103,104,105,106,117 = 772ohm, is this crucial, or can I fit just 1 x 750ohm instead of all of these?
3. Must R117 now be 3Watt as well?
4. C101,102 - must it be metallised polyester film caps.(non polarised) ?
5. C101,102 - must it be 33uf, will 10uf work?
6. Do you now use P101, 102 for volume control - or do you use volume control on output?
7. For unbalanced input - do I just take -In straight to ground, do I still need P102 here?
8. The most difficult question - or most laughable - what is V1, V3 (AC 270m 0 Sine...)
Obviously I know nothing about the operation of amplifiers, but are learning
Thanx for all answers and what ever other comments.
I am on the brink of building my pre-amp. Decided on BoSoZ, but now thinking about XBoSoZ.
I intend to use XBoSoZ with Aleph30:
(I did try to follow this thread from page 1, did get some answers, also got confused couple of times, so please excuse for recurring questions.)
Questions (All on XBoSoZ)
1a. Which will work better with Aleph30 - X'ed or normal BoSoZ?
1. R115 - is it just a plain jumper -short?
2. The sum of R103,104,105,106,117 = 772ohm, is this crucial, or can I fit just 1 x 750ohm instead of all of these?
3. Must R117 now be 3Watt as well?
4. C101,102 - must it be metallised polyester film caps.(non polarised) ?
5. C101,102 - must it be 33uf, will 10uf work?
6. Do you now use P101, 102 for volume control - or do you use volume control on output?
7. For unbalanced input - do I just take -In straight to ground, do I still need P102 here?
8. The most difficult question - or most laughable - what is V1, V3 (AC 270m 0 Sine...)
Obviously I know nothing about the operation of amplifiers, but are learning
Thanx for all answers and what ever other comments.