Super caps
In my work I have often wanted to use special non certificated caps . It's a no-no .
One thing you can do if X2 caps is use a VDR in paralell . 300 V rating would be good . That's the same for USA because most houses use 230 V bi-phase which if it goes wrong in a storm becomes 230 V single phase ( neutral failure where wires touch ) .
Hope that helps ? The 32OV Epcos is especially suitable for golden ears .
B72220S0321K101 - EPCOS - VARISTOR, 184J, 320VAC | Farnell United Kingdom
You can use transorbs . However I never find the voltages offered useful . It's the three bears and the Epcos in baby bear . If you stand a transorb on another device like RATA did it works . However I wouldn't be allowed to use that in my work .
In Belgium and Spain some houses also have 230 V bi phase . This is Audio paradise for filtering if using 230 V and not 115 V . Tournai in Belgium is where I saw it .
BTW mostly the transformer absorbs transient up to the limit of this VDR . If switchmode PSU depending on design it is a bit more critical . Hence most are 300 V rated . Some devices make elaborate claims involving 6000 V . That is the supposed flash over point of wall sockets and not some magical thing they are saying .
In my work I have often wanted to use special non certificated caps . It's a no-no .
One thing you can do if X2 caps is use a VDR in paralell . 300 V rating would be good . That's the same for USA because most houses use 230 V bi-phase which if it goes wrong in a storm becomes 230 V single phase ( neutral failure where wires touch ) .
Hope that helps ? The 32OV Epcos is especially suitable for golden ears .
B72220S0321K101 - EPCOS - VARISTOR, 184J, 320VAC | Farnell United Kingdom
You can use transorbs . However I never find the voltages offered useful . It's the three bears and the Epcos in baby bear . If you stand a transorb on another device like RATA did it works . However I wouldn't be allowed to use that in my work .
In Belgium and Spain some houses also have 230 V bi phase . This is Audio paradise for filtering if using 230 V and not 115 V . Tournai in Belgium is where I saw it .
BTW mostly the transformer absorbs transient up to the limit of this VDR . If switchmode PSU depending on design it is a bit more critical . Hence most are 300 V rated . Some devices make elaborate claims involving 6000 V . That is the supposed flash over point of wall sockets and not some magical thing they are saying .
275Vac spike limiters are sold and are suitable for the UK's maximum of 254Vac when at maximum tolerance.
BTW,
the UK 3phase system is still 440Vac between the phases. 440 = sqrt(3) * 240 * 1.06
BTW,
the UK 3phase system is still 440Vac between the phases. 440 = sqrt(3) * 240 * 1.06
VDR's
That's true and is common advice . This is to protect the cap only . Some prefer not to use VDR's . This should please everyone and even do some good .
I will support Russ Andrews on this as it is an interruption of his early devices .
The unified system for 3 phase is about 420V . That raises to about 460 inside regs . Formulas on the net if wanting to be precise . I took 440 x230/240 as approximate .
CIVIL . In a capacitor current leads voltage . Voltage leads current in an inductor . A useful little aid to memory .
http://www.dynamicdemand.co.uk/grid.htm
That's true and is common advice . This is to protect the cap only . Some prefer not to use VDR's . This should please everyone and even do some good .
I will support Russ Andrews on this as it is an interruption of his early devices .
The unified system for 3 phase is about 420V . That raises to about 460 inside regs . Formulas on the net if wanting to be precise . I took 440 x230/240 as approximate .
CIVIL . In a capacitor current leads voltage . Voltage leads current in an inductor . A useful little aid to memory .
http://www.dynamicdemand.co.uk/grid.htm
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Fire risks
As said to please those who would not us a VDR . They should use them . I strongly encourage US readers to consider their system to be 230 V for insurance purposes . I do have a file somewhere for that . This one will suffice .
275 V device is a good compromise .
New requirements for Voltage Dependent Resistors under UL/ IEC 60950-1, 2nd Edition
The best device type
http://www.adckrone.com/eu/en/webcontent/support/PDFs/carrier/101259EN.pdf
I found this very useful and sensible . Thanks Andrew .
http://forums.naimaudio.com/displayForumTopic/content/2833539973698352
As said to please those who would not us a VDR . They should use them . I strongly encourage US readers to consider their system to be 230 V for insurance purposes . I do have a file somewhere for that . This one will suffice .
275 V device is a good compromise .
New requirements for Voltage Dependent Resistors under UL/ IEC 60950-1, 2nd Edition
The best device type
http://www.adckrone.com/eu/en/webcontent/support/PDFs/carrier/101259EN.pdf
I found this very useful and sensible . Thanks Andrew .
http://forums.naimaudio.com/displayForumTopic/content/2833539973698352
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FIRE HAZARD USA
Fire Hazards of Surge Suppressors
This is very good reading and from the insurance industry . It is a very deep insight and I feel supports subjective doubts .
Fire Hazards of Surge Suppressors
This is very good reading and from the insurance industry . It is a very deep insight and I feel supports subjective doubts .
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Sound and safety
Many years ago I read an article that set out to prove or disprove that class B amplifiers could rise above mains voltage on transients . The conclusion was they could and was probably energy stored in the house wiring inductance . It was with measurements and was possibly in Hi Fi Answers in the 1980's . The transient mains currents were also measured and found to be much higher than expected . Naim owners seem to be the ones who took most notice . The effect is much like VI limiting of power amplifiers could be said .
My recommendations were not to state what is general advice on VDR's .It was to recommend a VDR to lets say a Naim user , fully respecting their reluctance to use them .
275 V I feel happy to recommend . 320 V is still I believe protecting the caps . The area of focus is . >500V .
EN 132400 says all on that . Due to copywrite I am reluctant to give a link on that . If you Google it you can see examples of capacitor tests .
The next piece of advice my company paid for . NEMCO gave a very simple formula . Consider the 230 V standard to be 300 V . The 460 V for three phase is my own . Three phase before harmonization was . 220 V = 380 V 240 V = 415 V . Now 230 V = 400 V 254 V = 440 V ( all rounded to convenient voltages ) . 440V caps seem ideal for general use . With a 320 V VDR an ideal solution if having misgivings over sonic degradation .
http://www.farnell.com/datasheets/1486466.pdf
ECQU3A474MG - PANASONIC - CAPACITOR, X1, 250V, 0.47UF | Farnell United Kingdom
http://www.dynamicdemand.co.uk/grid.htm
Many years ago I read an article that set out to prove or disprove that class B amplifiers could rise above mains voltage on transients . The conclusion was they could and was probably energy stored in the house wiring inductance . It was with measurements and was possibly in Hi Fi Answers in the 1980's . The transient mains currents were also measured and found to be much higher than expected . Naim owners seem to be the ones who took most notice . The effect is much like VI limiting of power amplifiers could be said .
My recommendations were not to state what is general advice on VDR's .It was to recommend a VDR to lets say a Naim user , fully respecting their reluctance to use them .
275 V I feel happy to recommend . 320 V is still I believe protecting the caps . The area of focus is . >500V .
EN 132400 says all on that . Due to copywrite I am reluctant to give a link on that . If you Google it you can see examples of capacitor tests .
The next piece of advice my company paid for . NEMCO gave a very simple formula . Consider the 230 V standard to be 300 V . The 460 V for three phase is my own . Three phase before harmonization was . 220 V = 380 V 240 V = 415 V . Now 230 V = 400 V 254 V = 440 V ( all rounded to convenient voltages ) . 440V caps seem ideal for general use . With a 320 V VDR an ideal solution if having misgivings over sonic degradation .
http://www.farnell.com/datasheets/1486466.pdf
ECQU3A474MG - PANASONIC - CAPACITOR, X1, 250V, 0.47UF | Farnell United Kingdom
http://www.dynamicdemand.co.uk/grid.htm
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Caps
Hi Andrew . A study my company did was punch though in capacitors . Mostly this was reading data on the problems and pulling apart caps which had been in service for a long time . In our opinion this was important to us . I feel that over lapping the capacitor with a VDR will create a super capacitor which if taken apart years later will have fewer punch though holes . For the want of a few pounds and listening tests it is worth considering . Symbiosis of two components . If you look at the operating curves you should find what I am talking about . For me that's all I can say on this .
Do I think doing this is worthwhile ? Yes .
Do I ever get non VDR clamped caps fail ? Yes . Do I know why ? No . I have many theories and plenty is published .
Maybe people don't trust a free gift these days ?
Hi Andrew . A study my company did was punch though in capacitors . Mostly this was reading data on the problems and pulling apart caps which had been in service for a long time . In our opinion this was important to us . I feel that over lapping the capacitor with a VDR will create a super capacitor which if taken apart years later will have fewer punch though holes . For the want of a few pounds and listening tests it is worth considering . Symbiosis of two components . If you look at the operating curves you should find what I am talking about . For me that's all I can say on this .
Do I think doing this is worthwhile ? Yes .
Do I ever get non VDR clamped caps fail ? Yes . Do I know why ? No . I have many theories and plenty is published .
Maybe people don't trust a free gift these days ?
Would it be fair to claim that a spike limiter will give some attenuation of spikes downstream of the nearby mains capacitor?
Then surely from this, it is not only the capacitor that benefits from the spike limiter.
The downstream side also benefits from the attenuation of the spikes.
Whereas I see the benefit, as explained at my opening statement, extending to the many components and assembles downstream of the X cap.
Then surely from this, it is not only the capacitor that benefits from the spike limiter.
The downstream side also benefits from the attenuation of the spikes.
give me the impression that the benefit only extends as far as the capacitor across the mains poles, i.e. the X cap.
Whereas I see the benefit, as explained at my opening statement, extending to the many components and assembles downstream of the X cap.
Absolutely . We agree , but come at it from very different points of view . Mine is can we have some useful VDR protection whilst being cautious about Pace ,Rhythm and Timing ( Naim ) . Protecting the caps is my big deal .
Thanks for putting me right about 3 phase . Somehow it was burnt into my mind that we started with 440V because it was always on a warning sticker next to the lathe . I still think 460 V is a wise idea of a standard . If applying NEMCO rule of thumb it would be higher .
The only 3 phase used in my job was a big Amcron amp for testing gradients which go into body scanners .
AE Techron Precision Industrial Amplifiers
Thanks for putting me right about 3 phase . Somehow it was burnt into my mind that we started with 440V because it was always on a warning sticker next to the lathe . I still think 460 V is a wise idea of a standard . If applying NEMCO rule of thumb it would be higher .
The only 3 phase used in my job was a big Amcron amp for testing gradients which go into body scanners .
AE Techron Precision Industrial Amplifiers
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I have three phase in my present home.
I had three phase in my two previous homes.
There are some advantages in having more than one phase in a home.
But there is one big disadvantage. One must remember that potentially 440Vac can exist around the house.
eg. fixed lighting in the ceiling can be on a different phase from the wall sockets in that room !!!!
I had three phase in my two previous homes.
There are some advantages in having more than one phase in a home.
But there is one big disadvantage. One must remember that potentially 440Vac can exist around the house.
eg. fixed lighting in the ceiling can be on a different phase from the wall sockets in that room !!!!
3 phase
You are right . I was in France at my in-laws house . I had to get the local electrician in as the house was starting to burn and we were leaving ( my suspicion it was ) . I could not in conscience leave it like that . A small cable was overheating . My French is so-so . I asked Mr Bergeon if he wanted some help ? He did . Mr B says to me I have not repaired this installation you know . It is the work of a criminal . It was 3 phase and it was all wrong and inside the house . The reason it was 3 phase was the electrician who installed it thought it best for a future swimming pool ( no idea why ) . My ex father in-law had been paying extra for 3 phase . It is all still the same and that's 20 years now .
I didn't know the exact word for LIVE , it is PHASE or DENUDE . I lernt that day " attention c'est denude Nigel " I learnt the hard way . Phase is technical live , the other dangerous live .
USA bi phase is the same as Andrew points out . It can be 230 V between rooms . I am told 130 V is not uncommon in the US per phase. Bi phase is said to be adapted Edison DC system . No idea if that's right .
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnex_Scientific
You are right . I was in France at my in-laws house . I had to get the local electrician in as the house was starting to burn and we were leaving ( my suspicion it was ) . I could not in conscience leave it like that . A small cable was overheating . My French is so-so . I asked Mr Bergeon if he wanted some help ? He did . Mr B says to me I have not repaired this installation you know . It is the work of a criminal . It was 3 phase and it was all wrong and inside the house . The reason it was 3 phase was the electrician who installed it thought it best for a future swimming pool ( no idea why ) . My ex father in-law had been paying extra for 3 phase . It is all still the same and that's 20 years now .
I didn't know the exact word for LIVE , it is PHASE or DENUDE . I lernt that day " attention c'est denude Nigel " I learnt the hard way . Phase is technical live , the other dangerous live .
USA bi phase is the same as Andrew points out . It can be 230 V between rooms . I am told 130 V is not uncommon in the US per phase. Bi phase is said to be adapted Edison DC system . No idea if that's right .
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnex_Scientific
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Just a couple minor points with respect to USA power distribution to homes.
It is very difficult to get three phase to a residential home unless in the county. If you are in a city, regulations usually prohibit it unless you are running a business. The laws vary considerably from state to state and county to county.
The 6000 V flashover for a connector is totally irrelevant since the wiring insulation will break down much below that. the usual insulation rating is only 600V. Look up Romex 12-3 for typical values. 600V rated insulation will break down below 1200V.
I've measured voltage as high as 132V at my house breaker panel.
At my previous house, I was having peaks of 135V and complained to the power board. They installed a chart recorder for 24 hours, and after reviewing it declared it was normal. We were using 130V rated bulbs from Poland at the time just to keep from blowing them on a weekly basis. A couple years later I talked to a Lineman working on a neighbors power transformer. After telling him of my problems he agreed to look at it. While he was up the power pole measuring the transformer he had me switch various loads on and off in the house. When he came down he stated the ground in the transformer was faulty, and that it wasn't uncommon. The power board replaced the transformer, and my problems went away although typical voltage was still in the 125V range. US power at one time was rated at 115V nominal +/- 10% which gave the range of 90-130V.
It is very difficult to get three phase to a residential home unless in the county. If you are in a city, regulations usually prohibit it unless you are running a business. The laws vary considerably from state to state and county to county.
The 6000 V flashover for a connector is totally irrelevant since the wiring insulation will break down much below that. the usual insulation rating is only 600V. Look up Romex 12-3 for typical values. 600V rated insulation will break down below 1200V.
I've measured voltage as high as 132V at my house breaker panel.
At my previous house, I was having peaks of 135V and complained to the power board. They installed a chart recorder for 24 hours, and after reviewing it declared it was normal. We were using 130V rated bulbs from Poland at the time just to keep from blowing them on a weekly basis. A couple years later I talked to a Lineman working on a neighbors power transformer. After telling him of my problems he agreed to look at it. While he was up the power pole measuring the transformer he had me switch various loads on and off in the house. When he came down he stated the ground in the transformer was faulty, and that it wasn't uncommon. The power board replaced the transformer, and my problems went away although typical voltage was still in the 125V range. US power at one time was rated at 115V nominal +/- 10% which gave the range of 90-130V.
US Electricity
I had a basic training as a power engineer . I have been told off for going transformer spotting ( like train spotting ) . If on a farm we can have a near duplicate of a US house with pole transformer . Very nice .
If I lived in the USA I would balance the load on my supply . I don't know if it's allowed ? The 230 V option would be my choice .
I am told the 3 wire Edison DC was reconfigured to be bi phase AC when Tesla Westinghouse won the battles of the AC DC war . 110 V as was said then was a compromise to suit Edison's danger warnings over AC kills .
DC was not like amplifier DC . It was like rectified AC .
I had a basic training as a power engineer . I have been told off for going transformer spotting ( like train spotting ) . If on a farm we can have a near duplicate of a US house with pole transformer . Very nice .
If I lived in the USA I would balance the load on my supply . I don't know if it's allowed ? The 230 V option would be my choice .
I am told the 3 wire Edison DC was reconfigured to be bi phase AC when Tesla Westinghouse won the battles of the AC DC war . 110 V as was said then was a compromise to suit Edison's danger warnings over AC kills .
DC was not like amplifier DC . It was like rectified AC .
How did you manage to get a three phase supply to your house, its unusual unless you have a big workshop! Never mind the bills.
My first house had it by chance.
It was a conversion from coach house and stable (Meuse for the upmarket and rather grand houses on the main thorough fair) to self contained meuse flat. Lounge in the former stable, two bedrooms in the former hay loft.
It had two phases in the garage (coach house) and three phases in the house portion. But only two were in use. The third had no fuse and no meter.
One phase fed the allways on supply. The second phase fed the off peak supply. It remained an off peak supply, even though that version had been replaced with tariff D.
I asked if they could change the meter to three phase. They said yes and it cost me nothing for the meter change and nothing extra on the daily rate nor the energy rate. It was a no cost changeover. I then bought a few three phase machines at auction. They were usually less than 50% of the bid price for equivalent single phase machines. That led to me manufacturing my prototype single seater racing car.
Since then I have asked the supplier if they would install a 3phase meter in my next house. All I had to pay for was the cable trench and backfilling to my new meter location. Again no extra charge for the meter or the energy rates.
My current house is a self build. I simply asked that they bring the three phases to my meter location. Again no extra charges.
It was a conversion from coach house and stable (Meuse for the upmarket and rather grand houses on the main thorough fair) to self contained meuse flat. Lounge in the former stable, two bedrooms in the former hay loft.
It had two phases in the garage (coach house) and three phases in the house portion. But only two were in use. The third had no fuse and no meter.
One phase fed the allways on supply. The second phase fed the off peak supply. It remained an off peak supply, even though that version had been replaced with tariff D.
I asked if they could change the meter to three phase. They said yes and it cost me nothing for the meter change and nothing extra on the daily rate nor the energy rate. It was a no cost changeover. I then bought a few three phase machines at auction. They were usually less than 50% of the bid price for equivalent single phase machines. That led to me manufacturing my prototype single seater racing car.
Since then I have asked the supplier if they would install a 3phase meter in my next house. All I had to pay for was the cable trench and backfilling to my new meter location. Again no extra charge for the meter or the energy rates.
My current house is a self build. I simply asked that they bring the three phases to my meter location. Again no extra charges.
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3 phase
Just thought you might like to see how 3 phase works
Star is the domestic version which allows both 400V three phase and 230V single phase go to houses and workshops . Usually houses are arranged on phases in sequence to balance the load . At the center of the star a neutral is fixed . A typical street 3 phase ring main is 400A per phase . 100A usually into house . The cable is often triangular ( easy clamping ) and made from aluminum for the 400A feed . The 5 ( 4 ) cables seen on older poles outside the house are 3 phase 1 neutral and an earth .
Across country delta is used without a neutral . Here power is taken across phases .
Three-phase Y and Delta configurations : POLYPHASE AC CIRCUITS
Just thought you might like to see how 3 phase works
Star is the domestic version which allows both 400V three phase and 230V single phase go to houses and workshops . Usually houses are arranged on phases in sequence to balance the load . At the center of the star a neutral is fixed . A typical street 3 phase ring main is 400A per phase . 100A usually into house . The cable is often triangular ( easy clamping ) and made from aluminum for the 400A feed . The 5 ( 4 ) cables seen on older poles outside the house are 3 phase 1 neutral and an earth .
Across country delta is used without a neutral . Here power is taken across phases .
Three-phase Y and Delta configurations : POLYPHASE AC CIRCUITS
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