MrGuitardeath said:
I worked in touring Rock 'n Roll for over 10 years. I have only ever seen one professional guitarist using full range cabs for electric guitar, and he was a Jazz/folk player. Electro-accoustic, yes, lead electric, no. Even guitarists using the newer modelling preamps still use standard cabs.
Via their own mic-ed up cabs...
Well, just because they don't have names like Yngwie Malmsteen or Joe Satriani doesn't mean they aren't out there. Do some searches online. You'll find plenty of modern independant solo players with sites online that run PA style cabs alongside their guitar cabs.
As far as mic'ing a cab into a PA, there is still going to be a much higher definition to the sound reproduction without any EQ'ing on the mixer. I'm sure this is what motivated a lot of guys to run full frequency cabs. There are a lot of tricks of the trade out there and often odd cabinet configurations are part of them.
If I were motiviated enough I could probably site easily half a dozen different sites of guitarists using full frequency custom enclosures. Heck, I even know of a few that build and sell them
As far as mic'ing a cab into a PA, there is still going to be a much higher definition to the sound reproduction without any EQ'ing on the mixer. I'm sure this is what motivated a lot of guys to run full frequency cabs. There are a lot of tricks of the trade out there and often odd cabinet configurations are part of them.
If I were motiviated enough I could probably site easily half a dozen different sites of guitarists using full frequency custom enclosures. Heck, I even know of a few that build and sell them
I have the evidence of my own experience with real gigging guitarists, not the imaginary world that is the internet.
Oh, and I haven't just worked in the heavy metal/ guitar hero genre as you assumed, my experience goes from, for instance, Diana Ross, through semi-pro bands working in a muddy field, and back to Pink Floyd.
al/ gave over 150 tour t-shirts to charity shops last time he moved house...
Oh, and I haven't just worked in the heavy metal/ guitar hero genre as you assumed, my experience goes from, for instance, Diana Ross, through semi-pro bands working in a muddy field, and back to Pink Floyd.
al/ gave over 150 tour t-shirts to charity shops last time he moved house...
Imaginary world?
What are you, deranged??
I refered to musicians that play regularly and have their equipment listed online. Imaginary...damn near every pro guitarist out there has their own site.
Have you ever seen what Pat Metheny's rig consists of?
It's elaborate.
What are you, deranged??
I refered to musicians that play regularly and have their equipment listed online. Imaginary...damn near every pro guitarist out there has their own site.
Have you ever seen what Pat Metheny's rig consists of?
It's elaborate.
Oh, yes, those pics. They keep the MI trade sponsors happy, and the kit might go into the studio every now and again, but you never see it on the road.
MrGuitardeath, I'm getting very tired of your flippant attitude. If you haven't noticed we don't like to deal with issues in the manner you bring.
I would strongly suggest you start to realise that. As in now.
Speakerdude,
I'm sure we all have something to say here but I moved your post. I didn't see it helping the situation.
I'm sure we all have something to say here but I moved your post. I didn't see it helping the situation.
The 90 dB rating isn't even for all frequencies. It's a result of the peak frequency generated during this industry standardized test. I believe they use white noise as the source signal and then the 1 watt @ 1 meter.
Flippant?
Not my fault I can articulate better than these trolls and it gets everyones blood pressure up. Yet again I'm going to get targeted for having an edge.
Flippant?
Not my fault I can articulate better than these trolls and it gets everyones blood pressure up. Yet again I'm going to get targeted for having an edge.
and mouse, Pat Metheny DOES take that exotic rig everywhere he tours as do many of the guitarsits I've mentioned. It's not as though everyone needs to hire soundmen such as yourself
MrGuitardeath said:
Last time i saw him, he put me to sleep... nothing exotic in his kit TIR...
dave
MrGuitardeath your reasoning for using other kinds of drivers is flawed, almost everyone that makes guitar cabinets uses 98 db spl or higher 10" or 12" paper cone speakers because they are the most efficient and cover the limited range of an electric guitar well(plus they sound the best). piezo tweeters will sound like crap if their even getting the upper octives of a guitar (imo no). the reason factory style car speakers have such a low spl is because their magnets are small to save money, not to mention sucky designs.
bet celestion never saw you comming, you could inform them on what their doing wrong, ROFL. 😉
bet celestion never saw you comming, you could inform them on what their doing wrong, ROFL. 😉
RMS & Peak
Nigel Goodwin is quite correct when he determines 100 watts RMS = 200 watts peak (in rough terms anyway dependant on the load and lots of other stuff).
Sine wave maths of 0.707 (1.414) can only be applied to voltage not power because power is the product of volts x amps.
Theoretical example with voltage rails of 28.3 volts.
28.3 volts x 0.707 = 20.0 volts RMS
Into 4 ohms the RMS current is 20.0/4 = 5.0 amps
The RMS power therefore is 20.0 volts x 5.0 amps = 100 watts
The peak power is calculated by
28.3 volts x 1.0 = 28.3 volts peak
Into 4 ohms the peak current = 7.1 amps
The peak power therefore = 28.3 volts x 7.1 amps = 201 watts.
Now all the above will be affected by real world electronics, but as you can see peak watts is not RMS watts x 1.414.
Even simpler just multiply 1.414 by 1.414 = 2.00
Cheers
Nigel Goodwin is quite correct when he determines 100 watts RMS = 200 watts peak (in rough terms anyway dependant on the load and lots of other stuff).
Sine wave maths of 0.707 (1.414) can only be applied to voltage not power because power is the product of volts x amps.
Theoretical example with voltage rails of 28.3 volts.
28.3 volts x 0.707 = 20.0 volts RMS
Into 4 ohms the RMS current is 20.0/4 = 5.0 amps
The RMS power therefore is 20.0 volts x 5.0 amps = 100 watts
The peak power is calculated by
28.3 volts x 1.0 = 28.3 volts peak
Into 4 ohms the peak current = 7.1 amps
The peak power therefore = 28.3 volts x 7.1 amps = 201 watts.
Now all the above will be affected by real world electronics, but as you can see peak watts is not RMS watts x 1.414.
Even simpler just multiply 1.414 by 1.414 = 2.00
Cheers
chrisr said:
Small magnets???
Jeese, do you guys know ANYTHING other than what is printed on a chart or told to you by guys on this site. The magnet on the 10 I will be using weighs more than your typical guitar 12. Chrisr I don't think you know anything about speakers.
It's typical that car audio and pro/DJ audio use the heaviest magnets in the business. MUCH heavier than thosed used on basically any guitar speaker that exists.
Celestion is a company FOOLING you. They want you to believe that only THEIR products and THEIR designs can deliver THEIR results. It's a myth! It's how corporations are corporations. It's why +4 dB gear exists as Pro and -10 dB gear exists as semi pro. It's a lie! Stop playing by everyone elses rules...
Anyway, the amps finished. The second is under way.
The Piezo tweeter with a LIMITER sounds incredibl. I'm using a $1 piezo so when I install the KSN series in there it will be literally 10,000 times better. It adds so much clarity and definition while bringing out all the harmonics above the 1,800 hz bandwidth. Maximizes volume too. I'm now easily hitting 110 dB but I haven't metered anything just yet. My tube emulation circuit worked out great too and has yielded better results and a new design beyond anything I had dreamed.
As far as getting more dB volume out of a speaker, I guess all of you forget there is sound being projected out the rear side of the cone too. You can vent an enclosure and steal some volume without losing too much compression. Aside from that peak dB level being based on the speakers peak frequency and variety of other faults to such a test. This test is more geared towards designing custom enclosures for that specific speaker anyway. It's not actually giving you the results of it's performance in a tuned enclosure.
Someone also said I couldn't get more dB volume out of 50 watts by toying with signals but again, completely wrong. For starters I can run an input buffer which will let me get away with running a hotter and louder signal and achieving a little more volume without the added distortion. Heck, if I just max the amps volume and run a +4 dB piece of equipment into it, I'll get more overall volume and can use a few simple tricks to filter, limit or simply hide the distortion.
Sorry guys but sometimes doing things ghetto works out better.
....and Pat Metheny DOES take that rig on tour with him everywhere.
I always thought that one of the most important factors of choosing a pro-audio/instrument speaker over a typical car or home stereo model was that instrument speakers can withstand a lot more abuse. The most typical protection scheme in them is that the voice coil moves away from the magnetic field on the far ends of cone movement but I don't know if instrument speaker manufacturers have implemented any other protection techniques that would, for example, cool the voice coil more than in a car or home stereo speakers.
I have blown many hifi speakers even with very normal home stereo equipment and moderate volume levels: Distorted signal can be quite lethal to voice coils and i like to listen metal music. I wouldn't even dare to try any "consumer grade" speaker in a guitar amp rig that has more power than five watts.
McGuitardeath has a lot of sense in his way of doing things differently though: Since the sixties the guitar amplifier speaker cabinet design has mainly been quite inefficient and uninnovative. Some might say that the solutions of today are highly refined but i think this is highly untrue: Why only such a little amount of bi-amped guitar amplifier systems or crossover equipped designs? Why such a little amount of different speaker combinations? The guitar amplifier industry stopped being innovative after fifties and now you folks believe they do everything correctly and the most efficient way?
By the way MacGuitardeath, what's your tube emulator circuit like?
Teemu K
I have blown many hifi speakers even with very normal home stereo equipment and moderate volume levels: Distorted signal can be quite lethal to voice coils and i like to listen metal music. I wouldn't even dare to try any "consumer grade" speaker in a guitar amp rig that has more power than five watts.
McGuitardeath has a lot of sense in his way of doing things differently though: Since the sixties the guitar amplifier speaker cabinet design has mainly been quite inefficient and uninnovative. Some might say that the solutions of today are highly refined but i think this is highly untrue: Why only such a little amount of bi-amped guitar amplifier systems or crossover equipped designs? Why such a little amount of different speaker combinations? The guitar amplifier industry stopped being innovative after fifties and now you folks believe they do everything correctly and the most efficient way?
By the way MacGuitardeath, what's your tube emulator circuit like?
Teemu K
Not to be stingy but I think I should keep my tube emulation to myself for now. I'm hoping to piece together something new, simple and every bit as good as a very finely tuned/modded tube amp which would hopefully sell as one of the cheapest amp lines on the market.
The industry is close to having things right but still are missing the last piece of the puzzle which makes up 50% of getting the emulation right in the first place.
If what I'm planning works like I believe and hope it will, it will no longer be emulation...
As far as speakers go, I've never blown a high fi car or home audio speakers unless I exceeded the wattage ratings.
I remember these poly 6 1/2 mid-wooders I got for my car that I teamed with titanium coned tweeters, a really basic mosfet amp and 10 band EQ. They absolutely amazed people. Poly cones with great frequency response. The 10 I'm using is of the same design peaks into the 6-7 K range. They have performed incredibly in sub, 2-way and guitar applications. Almost as transparent as paper but just a little less bright while being quite a bit denser and just richer while delivering incredibly tight detail and clarity. You might crank up your paper cones louder but these will just project better. I'm certain the soundwaves produced are denser. If you think paper speakers are stronger then go right ahead and believe that, I won't try to persuade you otherwise.
Piezo tweeters are made from refined minerals. Basically it's a diamond audio resonator with a small paper, funnel, wizzer like cone and filtering strucure to project/aim the sound. Some are crap and some are incredible. If you know what to buy, you're going to get incredible performance. I say run them with a limiter but often you'll find you will crank it wide open. I won't tell you exactly what to get but look for a frequency respnose from 1,800 - 30,000 hz and at the least a 60 watt RMS rating. I bought some of these almost a decade ago and they were taken underground because they performed too well. The originals are around if and so are a few cut down versions but you need to know where to get them. Who the hell is going to buy a $300 silk dome tweeter when they can buy a piezo that performs better and sounds better for $10-$20 a pair??
If you get your tone and instrument that refined and minimalized in gear, even cheap piezos don't have to sound harsh.
The industry is close to having things right but still are missing the last piece of the puzzle which makes up 50% of getting the emulation right in the first place.
If what I'm planning works like I believe and hope it will, it will no longer be emulation...
As far as speakers go, I've never blown a high fi car or home audio speakers unless I exceeded the wattage ratings.
I remember these poly 6 1/2 mid-wooders I got for my car that I teamed with titanium coned tweeters, a really basic mosfet amp and 10 band EQ. They absolutely amazed people. Poly cones with great frequency response. The 10 I'm using is of the same design peaks into the 6-7 K range. They have performed incredibly in sub, 2-way and guitar applications. Almost as transparent as paper but just a little less bright while being quite a bit denser and just richer while delivering incredibly tight detail and clarity. You might crank up your paper cones louder but these will just project better. I'm certain the soundwaves produced are denser. If you think paper speakers are stronger then go right ahead and believe that, I won't try to persuade you otherwise.
Piezo tweeters are made from refined minerals. Basically it's a diamond audio resonator with a small paper, funnel, wizzer like cone and filtering strucure to project/aim the sound. Some are crap and some are incredible. If you know what to buy, you're going to get incredible performance. I say run them with a limiter but often you'll find you will crank it wide open. I won't tell you exactly what to get but look for a frequency respnose from 1,800 - 30,000 hz and at the least a 60 watt RMS rating. I bought some of these almost a decade ago and they were taken underground because they performed too well. The originals are around if and so are a few cut down versions but you need to know where to get them. Who the hell is going to buy a $300 silk dome tweeter when they can buy a piezo that performs better and sounds better for $10-$20 a pair??
If you get your tone and instrument that refined and minimalized in gear, even cheap piezos don't have to sound harsh.
Celestion got it wrong ???
Run for the hills folks, Celestion got it wrong...
Better also add
JBL
RCF
Peavey
Marshall
Fender
Yamaha
all got it wrong!
All the big concert venues too ...all got it wrong
And all the cinemas ....they got it wrong too
And Page, Hendrix, Blackmore, Clapton, Hughes, Gallagher, Iommi (how old am I) they got it wrong too....
And all the recording studios ....the mistakes they made
Well I'm just chuck all my gear away and trade up to polycone subwoofers and piezo tweeters....
Thanks man for putting me straight.
Run for the hills folks, Celestion got it wrong...
Better also add
JBL
RCF
Peavey
Marshall
Fender
Yamaha
all got it wrong!
All the big concert venues too ...all got it wrong
And all the cinemas ....they got it wrong too
And Page, Hendrix, Blackmore, Clapton, Hughes, Gallagher, Iommi (how old am I) they got it wrong too....
And all the recording studios ....the mistakes they made
Well I'm just chuck all my gear away and trade up to polycone subwoofers and piezo tweeters....
Thanks man for putting me straight.
Quasi you're a buffoon. All you did was shoot your mouth off and throw some big corporate names around. You justified nothing you said.
They don't have it wrong, they just don't dictate what is superior. You may BELIEVE that they are superior over anything else when they say so but hey, you go right ahead and be a trained monkey.
I can honestly say based on your behavior that you need an 8th grade level class in speakers 101. Then you need to spend a good 4 or 5 years studying materials, construction methods, testing/comparing driver designs and everything in between. Then you can run your mouth so foolishly once again if you still have not learned anything.
Your arguement was completely jackassed. Next time at least do a few searches on google if you want it to at least SEEM like you half know what you are talking about.
You collect your information then come debate me. I'll make you look like a loud mouthed fool.
By the way, a lot of major brands use piezo.
They don't have it wrong, they just don't dictate what is superior. You may BELIEVE that they are superior over anything else when they say so but hey, you go right ahead and be a trained monkey.
I can honestly say based on your behavior that you need an 8th grade level class in speakers 101. Then you need to spend a good 4 or 5 years studying materials, construction methods, testing/comparing driver designs and everything in between. Then you can run your mouth so foolishly once again if you still have not learned anything.
Your arguement was completely jackassed. Next time at least do a few searches on google if you want it to at least SEEM like you half know what you are talking about.
You collect your information then come debate me. I'll make you look like a loud mouthed fool.
By the way, a lot of major brands use piezo.
Umm....
Your Quote
Oh come on man I've powered 300 watt car amps off of 9 volt stomp box wall warts. Obviously I'm not delivering full power but the volume would shatter anything the Crate will dish out. I've actually gotten mass volume by connecting a 9 volt energizer to one.
At 9 volts a class AB amplifier will deliver 1.53 watts RMS into 4 ohms (more of that dreaded maths). But I suspect the 300 watt amp didn’t even turn on as it would need near an amp in idle current.
Your Quote
I'm thinking of loading it with a thick coned automotive grade 6.5 inch pure polypropylene speaker I'm familiar with and high output piezo bullet tweeter with limiter. I'll get twice the volume at half the wattage
Please explain how, maybe with a circuit and some maths.
Quote
As it is, speaker technology has seen almost no changes over the last 100 years aside from the materials used.
Oh well, I guess Morel, Scanspeak, Vifa should just shut their doors now.
Your Quote
You stressed the math but then said 100 watts RMS is equal to 200 watts peak. Not according to the math it isn't.
Oops that was proved incorrect, no retraction from you however.
Your Quote
Oh incidently, have you stayed current and followed solid wood cone technology?
The math and performance proves it to be far superior to any other cone material including paper.
Ok please show us the maths and performance analysis.
Your Quote
I've been working with speakers of over 10 years.
People who have tried to help you in this thread have a combined experience of maybe 10 times that. You seem to reject it all.
Your Quote
Nigel, you are a complete fraud. You stated that 100 watts RMS is 200 watts peak....maybe you don't realise those posts prior to this can be referenced again. Then you want to reference the math that I brought into the picture.
Oops wrong again, guess he ain’t a fraud on that one.
Your Quote
That's funny because I've witnessed dB readings off the board from a single 12 inch sub rated 90 dB @ 1 watt @ 1 meter produce 130 dB levels...
That would require around 9,000 watts. Oops forgot the maths on that one too.
Your Quote
Things like high power ultra heavy magnets that are vented to reduce dampening.
Vented magnets are used to aid cooling.
Your Quote
Small magnets??? Jeese, do you guys know ANYTHING other than what is printed on a chart or told to you by guys on this site. The magnet on the 10 I will be using weighs more than your typical guitar 12. Chrisr I don't think you know anything about speakers.
Small magnets are no good? Oh well may as well chuck my Morels away.
Your Quote
Not to be stingy but I think I should keep my tube emulation to myself for now.
Not surprising, given you have not posted any technical specs, schematics, photos, drawings etc.
Your Quote
Piezo tweeters are made from refined minerals. Basically it's a diamond audio resonator
You’ve got a diamond to resonate?
Your Quote
I can honestly say based on your behavior that you need an 8th grade level class in speakers 101. Then you need to spend a good 4 or 5 years studying materials, construction methods, testing/comparing driver designs and everything in between. Then you can run your mouth so foolishly once again if you still have not learned anything.
I have spent at least 20 years designing & building a range of speaker systems, including bass reflex, 4th order, PA and have used drivers from many of the manufacturers I mentioned extensively. It’s possible that I may have picked up an idea or two.
Your Quote
Your arguement was completely jackassed. Next time at least do a few searches on google if you want it to at least SEEM like you half know what you are talking about.
Oh man, you used the internet for research? Not fair. all those books I read…just wasted.
Your Quote
By the way, a lot of major brands use piezo.
Indeed, ever since Motorola first released them. I have used them extensively. You got me though, I’ve never used one with a 6.5 inch poly woofer.
You have called people here, Liars, Trolls, Jackasses, Out of date, Arrogant, Frauds, Jerks, Naïve, Deranged, Foolish.
Is it possible that you may have offended anybody?
Is it possible that the combined knowledge displayed here could actually help you?
Is it possible for you to re-consider your approach?
Your Quote
Oh come on man I've powered 300 watt car amps off of 9 volt stomp box wall warts. Obviously I'm not delivering full power but the volume would shatter anything the Crate will dish out. I've actually gotten mass volume by connecting a 9 volt energizer to one.
At 9 volts a class AB amplifier will deliver 1.53 watts RMS into 4 ohms (more of that dreaded maths). But I suspect the 300 watt amp didn’t even turn on as it would need near an amp in idle current.
Your Quote
I'm thinking of loading it with a thick coned automotive grade 6.5 inch pure polypropylene speaker I'm familiar with and high output piezo bullet tweeter with limiter. I'll get twice the volume at half the wattage
Please explain how, maybe with a circuit and some maths.
Quote
As it is, speaker technology has seen almost no changes over the last 100 years aside from the materials used.
Oh well, I guess Morel, Scanspeak, Vifa should just shut their doors now.
Your Quote
You stressed the math but then said 100 watts RMS is equal to 200 watts peak. Not according to the math it isn't.
Oops that was proved incorrect, no retraction from you however.
Your Quote
Oh incidently, have you stayed current and followed solid wood cone technology?
The math and performance proves it to be far superior to any other cone material including paper.
Ok please show us the maths and performance analysis.
Your Quote
I've been working with speakers of over 10 years.
People who have tried to help you in this thread have a combined experience of maybe 10 times that. You seem to reject it all.
Your Quote
Nigel, you are a complete fraud. You stated that 100 watts RMS is 200 watts peak....maybe you don't realise those posts prior to this can be referenced again. Then you want to reference the math that I brought into the picture.
Oops wrong again, guess he ain’t a fraud on that one.
Your Quote
That's funny because I've witnessed dB readings off the board from a single 12 inch sub rated 90 dB @ 1 watt @ 1 meter produce 130 dB levels...
That would require around 9,000 watts. Oops forgot the maths on that one too.
Your Quote
Things like high power ultra heavy magnets that are vented to reduce dampening.
Vented magnets are used to aid cooling.
Your Quote
Small magnets??? Jeese, do you guys know ANYTHING other than what is printed on a chart or told to you by guys on this site. The magnet on the 10 I will be using weighs more than your typical guitar 12. Chrisr I don't think you know anything about speakers.
Small magnets are no good? Oh well may as well chuck my Morels away.
Your Quote
Not to be stingy but I think I should keep my tube emulation to myself for now.
Not surprising, given you have not posted any technical specs, schematics, photos, drawings etc.
Your Quote
Piezo tweeters are made from refined minerals. Basically it's a diamond audio resonator
You’ve got a diamond to resonate?
Your Quote
I can honestly say based on your behavior that you need an 8th grade level class in speakers 101. Then you need to spend a good 4 or 5 years studying materials, construction methods, testing/comparing driver designs and everything in between. Then you can run your mouth so foolishly once again if you still have not learned anything.
I have spent at least 20 years designing & building a range of speaker systems, including bass reflex, 4th order, PA and have used drivers from many of the manufacturers I mentioned extensively. It’s possible that I may have picked up an idea or two.
Your Quote
Your arguement was completely jackassed. Next time at least do a few searches on google if you want it to at least SEEM like you half know what you are talking about.
Oh man, you used the internet for research? Not fair. all those books I read…just wasted.
Your Quote
By the way, a lot of major brands use piezo.
Indeed, ever since Motorola first released them. I have used them extensively. You got me though, I’ve never used one with a 6.5 inch poly woofer.
You have called people here, Liars, Trolls, Jackasses, Out of date, Arrogant, Frauds, Jerks, Naïve, Deranged, Foolish.
Is it possible that you may have offended anybody?
Is it possible that the combined knowledge displayed here could actually help you?
Is it possible for you to re-consider your approach?
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