Accept the challenge? What challenge would that be?
DIYaudio is a free speech forum where discussions on the objective and subjective side of hifi design can be had. Keeping things on point with a productive exchange of ideas is often very challenging. This thread is a challenge in and of itself.
All I see here though is someone (you) who has nothing meaningful to respond with to what I just posted and as a result you say 'lets just end communication'. By doing so you've just admitted defeat. I am perfectly happy to continue discussing this with you like I have been so far.
I am trying to have a proper discussion here with you about the objective side of loudspeaker design. Something that, so far, you appear to show very little knowledge about. The only thing you appear to possess is a massive ego and an opinion that once someone has a ton of money to throw at boutique drivers that somehow qualifies them as an expert on 'high end'.
If you want to continue the challenge then do so in an appropriate fashion. And rather than taking digs at people and taking shots at people who disagree with your point of view, go ahead and actually produce something of substance.
I don't know why you don't make the test setup universal so that the only variable is the driver and in your case, you want to EQ it flat. Pick a low and high xo that works in all drivers (probably can't be bigger than what ATC uses which is 380Hz and 3.8kHz. ) pick your favorite filter slope like LR2 or whatever, make a test cabinet with swappable baffles for any driver. Use a sealed back cabinet with damping material. Put the recording mic at same position, use same amp power, same sound tracks, etc.
Now you have a controlled experiment where the only variable is the driver and its EQ-to-flat response. The tweeter, woofer, baffle, cabinet, music, amp, mic, etc are all the same. Post the sound clips like I did and let people online pick. You can do your live tests as well but if you do, the drivers can't be arrayed. They need to be swapped out to same spot. Need an automated carousel to do this.
I am not sure why you are so resistant to doing a test using some form of scientific method with controls in place. Otherwise it is no more than "Hey, let's come to JonBicani's place to listen to a bunch of speakers while we are blindfded." How translatable is that to others who are not there or who want to know what the differences sound like under identical conditions of same speaker box, same EQ, same woofer, same tweeter, same position.
Really we are just trying to make the test more of an enduring piece of research in the diyAudio archives rather than just another listening session with lots of drivers at Jon's place.
Now you have a controlled experiment where the only variable is the driver and its EQ-to-flat response. The tweeter, woofer, baffle, cabinet, music, amp, mic, etc are all the same. Post the sound clips like I did and let people online pick. You can do your live tests as well but if you do, the drivers can't be arrayed. They need to be swapped out to same spot. Need an automated carousel to do this.
I am not sure why you are so resistant to doing a test using some form of scientific method with controls in place. Otherwise it is no more than "Hey, let's come to JonBicani's place to listen to a bunch of speakers while we are blindfded." How translatable is that to others who are not there or who want to know what the differences sound like under identical conditions of same speaker box, same EQ, same woofer, same tweeter, same position.
Really we are just trying to make the test more of an enduring piece of research in the diyAudio archives rather than just another listening session with lots of drivers at Jon's place.
..uhh..
''perfectly happy'' ?
Sorry sir, i'm deeply confused now.
Being perfectly happy to discuss with someone who has a massive ego and no knowledge of the said beloved subject of interest ?
How can that be stimulating in any way ?
Please, believe me: nothing personal here but let's agree to (deeply) disagree. Both our point of views are sitting in opposite galaxies.
..uhh..
''perfectly happy'' ?
Sorry sir, i'm deeply confused now.
Being perfectly happy to discuss with someone who has a massive ego and no knowledge of the said beloved subject of interest ?
How can that be stimulating in any way ?
Please, believe me: nothing personal here but let's agree to (deeply) disagree. Both our point of views are sitting in opposite galaxies.
sorry, but you cannot even answer to his post where he literally destroyed all your stupid post.
for people who have been around those parts for a long time, you sound like a troll at this point.
so please, answer his post
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Jon, you asked for the forum's help...
Remember this:
I have used this picture before but somehow it seems valid to show you this...
If you ask for help, be open to it... all your responses so far indicate you've already made up your mind.
Why ask for help if you're unwilling to accept it?
What is it, if it's not our help you want. Just a bit of attention? Throwing money around to prove some illustrious point?
You've lost me anyway, I had high hopes from the start. Please reconsider your original point. And accept help instead of this know it all routine...
Remember this:
I have used this picture before but somehow it seems valid to show you this...
If you ask for help, be open to it... all your responses so far indicate you've already made up your mind.
Why ask for help if you're unwilling to accept it?
What is it, if it's not our help you want. Just a bit of attention? Throwing money around to prove some illustrious point?
You've lost me anyway, I had high hopes from the start. Please reconsider your original point. And accept help instead of this know it all routine...
Attachments
your stupid post.
you sound like a troll at this point.
so please, answer his post
Insults are so very efficient incentives... Way to go, buddy.
Congratulations, you've won a one-way ticket to iwillnowignoreyoucity.
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Ok seriously guys, let's go to the interesting parts as i have not much interest and time playing childish stuff.
I will now ignore anything that goes that way, even by the slightest.
you sound like a troll at this point.
so please, answer his post
Insults are so very efficient incentives... Way to go, buddy.
Congratulations, you've won a one-way ticket to iwillnowignoreyoucity.
------
Ok seriously guys, let's go to the interesting parts as i have not much interest and time playing childish stuff.
I will now ignore anything that goes that way, even by the slightest.
Yep, and i had a list of drivers.
As far as that part is concerned, the mission is filled. Can't complain about that.
🙂
With the flow going on I can't even be sure if this is directed at me. But if you view it that way, you have missed my point. Carry on... I'm out...
Ok let's do something guys:
I registred on this website less than 10 days ago. My social life don't depend on it. 'Came here to have some suggestions of drivers. Got it (thank you all).
Now, i wouldn't mind just heading toward the exit before i start losing too much time or, even worse, be responsible for other people loss of time.
So what i suggest is: you want to have a follow-up on the test, see the video and all ? Just send me a private message, i'll be happy to give you updates.
That might weed out people who just stays for the entertainment, the drama and all the sh_t.
How that sounds (graph non-included) ?
I registred on this website less than 10 days ago. My social life don't depend on it. 'Came here to have some suggestions of drivers. Got it (thank you all).
Now, i wouldn't mind just heading toward the exit before i start losing too much time or, even worse, be responsible for other people loss of time.
So what i suggest is: you want to have a follow-up on the test, see the video and all ? Just send me a private message, i'll be happy to give you updates.
That might weed out people who just stays for the entertainment, the drama and all the sh_t.
How that sounds (graph non-included) ?
Cut the dust cap out (and add some sort of phase plug) it gets even better IMO.
dave
Not at all, i was answering post 504 http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/mult...nd-testing-need-your-help-51.html#post4394382
still wonder why you arent able or willing to answer to 5th element post.
I guess its because youll have to google a lot 😛
I guess its because youll have to google a lot 😛
Sounds like a statement describing many here throwing out so called objective arguments … many of those as yet unsubstantiated as valid indicators of ear/brain response because there have been few scientific experiments coorelating the "objective" measures with what the ear/brain perceives … as such those people have made a subjective choice that the objective measures are valid.
One of those are people continuing to disregard one of the few scientific experiments (by Geddes) that points to what we measure as speaker distortion as meaningless.
There are many compromises that have to be made designing a speaker, people should be open minded enuff to understand that Jon's choice of compromises may not be yours. It is his set of tests for his purposes, respect his choice of compromises.
Jon seems to be very open minded, and seems to have a LARGE experience set, we can all learn from what he is trying to do here.
dave
I mentioned this in your FR request thread, i will repeat here.
Mark Audio Alpair 7.3, and better yet the matched & enhanced A7.3eN that i do or the factory A7 MOAP (rare and hard to get)
dave
I'm willing to listen to any camp, really. It's hard to find the truth in audio though. I believe in the science part, can't help it, pre-programmed that way. But at least I try to stay open to other opinions and perceptions as well.
I'm of the (maybe too simplistic) opinion that in our heart we all mean well. But somehow we continue to collide. All that does is suck our energy. If we could find a way to progress by participation we would advance our hobby.
I am nor pro this or that, even if that sometimes might seem that way. I genuinely think we are all here to learn a thing or two.
I have nothing against Jon, I hope he sees that. But I also see the points made by 5th Element. I know how our own agenda's or opinions can drive us to a point where there's almost no room for a different point of view. I've been guilty of that, but I think we all have been at some point.
Tests like this take time, energy and perseverance. All I want here is to think a bit before judging one another. We don't need to be in opposite camps here. Just read the other point of view and let it sink in for a bit.
That's not to much to ask is it?
I'm of the (maybe too simplistic) opinion that in our heart we all mean well. But somehow we continue to collide. All that does is suck our energy. If we could find a way to progress by participation we would advance our hobby.
I am nor pro this or that, even if that sometimes might seem that way. I genuinely think we are all here to learn a thing or two.
I have nothing against Jon, I hope he sees that. But I also see the points made by 5th Element. I know how our own agenda's or opinions can drive us to a point where there's almost no room for a different point of view. I've been guilty of that, but I think we all have been at some point.
Tests like this take time, energy and perseverance. All I want here is to think a bit before judging one another. We don't need to be in opposite camps here. Just read the other point of view and let it sink in for a bit.
That's not to much to ask is it?
Geddes does not say that measuring speaker distortion is meaningless and people take this out of context and repeat it time and time again without the actual qualifiers.
Geddes has standards with regards to the drive units that he selects. Drive units that are properly designed, with advanced motor geometry, or similar, for improved motor linearity and then drivers that also preferably contain inductance linearising circuits.
He also selects drivers that innately have a lot of headroom and are highly efficient so that xmax vs max SPL vs increasing distortion near those limits (and the potential for clipping amplifiers) are pretty much eliminated.
This is not the case for the vast majority of designs and drivers that revolve around low sensitivity and/or low price points that feed to the bottom, or have more basic tech built into them as a marketing strategy.
This does NOT mean you can ignore driver distortion indiscriminately. It means you can ignore the minor differences between one excellently designed driver and another excellently designed driver.
If a driver isn't of excellent design then it doesn't even come into consideration because it is deemed inherently faulty.
In a world of small full range drivers, driver distortion is most certainly worth looking at because most of them have severely compromised lower end capabilities. Distortion measurements are an excellent way to determine how hard one can push said drivers before needing to back away, or where the best place to cross them over in a FAST design may be. With the designs that Geddes comes up with this isn't a concern because you will back away with on the volume control because your ears are hurting before the speakers ever cave in.
Distortion measurements for mid range drivers and tweeters in standard multiway loudspeakers are also essential as a way of knowing when said drivers are starting to lose linearity due to being pushed too hard. This once again is necessary for determining where they need to be crossed over so that they aren't going to be overloaded and exceed their linear operating rage under all normal operating conditions. This extends to realising driver specific idiosyncrasies that should also be avoided by judicious crossover choices.
After Geddes did his tests, he told people to ignore the entire chapter on distortion. He didn't say distortion wasn't bad, just the way it is measured.
dave
dave