The logical approach is to reduce the variables as much as possible in order to pinpoint something.
Recording drivers or any audio reproduction performance is a charming idea but the price to pay is to double the transducer conversions. We all know (do we?) that a transducer conversion is THE enemy of the high-fideliy.
One cannot transform acoustic energy into electrical energy -and vice versa- without a major loss.
Please, take the time to think about that. 😕
I can only briefly remember the vented midrange in EV's 1503 in a local store - also the heart of the Interface D which never got to see/hear - might pick up a rebuilt pair but perhaps more interested in hotter horns at this point - it used basically the same motor as EV15L and is rated for 125dB peak levels - if I get one - you know how I'll load it ;^) I have Altec 290/1 which need to be put into action sometime with either great white horns or 203B
16lb magnet structure, 2.5" aluminum edge wound coil
Looks like a paper ad from Coleco vision era.
Am i still allowed to listen music today, doc ?
aah, there we go. 😉
My listening position distance is 13.3 ft (4 meters) and it sure doesn't cause any problem. I'm also on-axis from almost everywhere in my place (open-space Loft, very long very narrow).
I can listen to 8'' driver up to 20,000hz if i want to.
That part alone is enough to add some discredit-points to your feuille de route (pardon my french).
YOU are chosing to limit yourself to 1.4khz-1.6khz, that is sure not everybody's idea of what state-of-the-art should be. Many high-end speakers manufacturers, for starters. And what about the guys that are listening fullrange drivers to bat-level frequencies..?
What i think is: you have built yourself a parallel reality with all kinds of rules that, taken alone, do not automatically reflect the real world -the actual human sensorial perception- and you're completely trapped in that illusion. Repeating to yourself and others, like a mantra, that only ONE way is possible...
I knew i'd stumble upon some very-narrow minded persona on this site, but please gimme a break.
You know what would be the final answer to 5th element croisade's non-sense ?
Me, organizing another test with two fully built sound systems.
One my way.
One 5th element's way.
Just a very efficient but cruel appreciation blind test with hundred+ testees, audiophiles and non-audiophiles. People who enjoy music and sound.
Then, only one f***** simple question:
WHICH ONE DO YOU LIKE THE MOST ?
.
.
.
10,000 quid that i get 51%+ votes.
How 'bout that ?
Me, organizing another test with two fully built sound systems.
One my way.
One 5th element's way.
Just a very efficient but cruel appreciation blind test with hundred+ testees, audiophiles and non-audiophiles. People who enjoy music and sound.
Then, only one f***** simple question:
WHICH ONE DO YOU LIKE THE MOST ?
.
.
.
10,000 quid that i get 51%+ votes.
How 'bout that ?
Only 51% majority? That doesn't match the bravado of the challenge. That is less than statistical spread. Are you talking about real life blind audition or sound clips? Who records the clips so that it is fair and non-advocate?
This can't be done live because you two are on different continents. So really a challenge that is not feasible and can't be realized unless done virtually. But then virtually there will be all sorts of questions and protestations.
If you think P10 challenging my use of mics and Zoom recorders when it's all for fun - wait till 10k pounds sterling is behind it.
This can't be done live because you two are on different continents. So really a challenge that is not feasible and can't be realized unless done virtually. But then virtually there will be all sorts of questions and protestations.
If you think P10 challenging my use of mics and Zoom recorders when it's all for fun - wait till 10k pounds sterling is behind it.
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No, no... REAL-LIFE blind audition. In acoustically controlled environment.
''only 51% majority''
Are you kidding ?? The way 5th element is pointing out the so-called flaws in everything i do or think that i do... just me having 20% of success would be a discredit for his theories!
But, hey, 51% will do. Fair and square. Winner takes all.
Rather like to see the two systems objective data, including square waves and the like 🙂 to see claims for good sound is not just special system voicing or distortion to please the audience.
It doesnt stop anything. We just have to place ads and spread the word locally about this contest so we can attract enough testees for statistical value. Then, 5th element can send whoever he wants to inspect, monitor and supervise the methodology, etc...
Also will film everything and make a video out of it.
---------------------
10,000 quid
+
10,000 quid
Fideicommis account
Not a bet: money used to, officially, produce the test. Then a company will pay back 20,000 as ''expertise fees'' to the individual who provided the highest level of expertise. 😉
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🙂 Well think yourself set the bar to be very high "Worlds best mid" gear at reference class. When we up in that class gear not just it needs to subjective sound good it also needs the objective data to prove its precision is world class is my opinion.
JonBocani said:
No it is just not just me that chooses to design in this way. So okay, go and use those drivers higher than that. With the Ti100 you're going to let through a huge increase in third order distortion slap bang in the area where the ear is the most sensitive. That doesn't seem state-of-the-art to me.
Or with the B200, go ahead and cross that over really high to a tweeter and cause a huge wide-narrow-wide dispersion profile, with a wonky power response. That too doesn't seem state-of-the-art either.
JonBocani said:
S'fine with me. Listening to a loudspeaker with lighthouse like high frequencies is their choice, but listening genuinely full range is far better than using an 8" up to 7kHz with it's lighthouse highs and then suddenly crossing it to a tweeter that is radiating out in all directions - which is what you are wanting to do.
JonBocani said:
It's got nothing to do with being narrow minded, I keep arguing what's wrong with what you are doing from a technical point of view, this is not being closed minded it's being objective and listening to what science tells us. Are you going to fly to the moon with a rocket that you picked out because it was aesthetically pleasing? I think not.
You have created this thread to find the 'worlds best midrange' that is quite the challenge. Worlds best means something that not only sounds excellent but ticks all the boxes for objective technical prowess.
Hear hear!
5th Element's statement:
Originally Posted by 5th element
You shouldn't really be using either driver beyond around 1400Hz - 1600hz in a finished multiway system anyway if state of the art is what you have in mind. Or are you going to use drivers inappropriately?
Seems ridiculous, but maybe he has an argument to go with that. I'm guessing he is thinking of off axis response, and how that would mesh with a small tweeter (?) Not that I agree with him, and I don't, but there must be some reason why he would make that statement.
Update: he beat me to the draw by about a minute... Anyway, there are many tradeoffs, and it's my opinion that keeping crossover points out of the 800 - 6kHZ region is more important than avoiding a sag in the off axis response in the 2kHZ - 5kHZ region. That sag will usually sound more pleasant in the real world, where everything is riddled with variables and tradeoffs.
Originally Posted by 5th element
You shouldn't really be using either driver beyond around 1400Hz - 1600hz in a finished multiway system anyway if state of the art is what you have in mind. Or are you going to use drivers inappropriately?
Seems ridiculous, but maybe he has an argument to go with that. I'm guessing he is thinking of off axis response, and how that would mesh with a small tweeter (?) Not that I agree with him, and I don't, but there must be some reason why he would make that statement.
Update: he beat me to the draw by about a minute... Anyway, there are many tradeoffs, and it's my opinion that keeping crossover points out of the 800 - 6kHZ region is more important than avoiding a sag in the off axis response in the 2kHZ - 5kHZ region. That sag will usually sound more pleasant in the real world, where everything is riddled with variables and tradeoffs.
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We could set requirements and system needs to meet them just to qualify. Sort of like car audio competitions but high fidelity. As an example of requirements - so don't flame me.
20Hz to 20kHz +/- 1.5dB
90dB with no more than 0.5% HD at any harmonic and no more than 1% THD at any frequency in specified bandwidth.
Able to hit 115dB peaks with no more than 3%THD at any frequency.
Phase flat from 100Hz to 10kHz within +/-10deg
Transient perfect SR triangle shaped response
Able to produce square wave from 200Hz to 10kHz with 80% accuracy with non linear least squares fit to determine goodness of fit over 1 cycle.
Etc
Show measurements.
Not too many systems that can do this. Maybe Wesayso's Two Towers - AFAIK.
20Hz to 20kHz +/- 1.5dB
90dB with no more than 0.5% HD at any harmonic and no more than 1% THD at any frequency in specified bandwidth.
Able to hit 115dB peaks with no more than 3%THD at any frequency.
Phase flat from 100Hz to 10kHz within +/-10deg
Transient perfect SR triangle shaped response
Able to produce square wave from 200Hz to 10kHz with 80% accuracy with non linear least squares fit to determine goodness of fit over 1 cycle.
Etc
Show measurements.
Not too many systems that can do this. Maybe Wesayso's Two Towers - AFAIK.
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You don't get it, xrk971... That is not some kind of open contest with qualifications and sh_t... Nope. It's between 5th element and me. Full Sergio Leone style...
*insert Ennio Morricone music here*
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h1PfrmCGFnk
relax men. you should look why 5th element talks about th 1.6khz limit. many will agree with him. i sure do.
the atc mid is amazing if you like to listen to your music analytically.
.. what does that even mean ? 🙄
oh my. a lot of you completely lost track of what is the ultimate goal here:
Audio reproduction system. Intended to work for the sensorial perception of a human being.
...any single thing must pass through sensorial perception validation, in a way or the other. Period.
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Bob, people are having arguments to defend wrong positions since the dawn of men.
What he basically says is: What i hear, what i feel, what i enjoy... is an illusion. He's saying that something is wrong while the REAL-LIFE results that works very successfully, for years, and for thousands of people.
What you say in that case ? Nothing. You put 10,000 quid on the table and see if he's confident enough to go out in the real world with his theories and prove it.
You have the recipe to build a race car with all the simulations to back it ?
Well. Time to go on a real race track, sir.
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