Woofer for Manger

[slr 5000]

please excuse the bad pics
i am a good gasfitter but not much of a photographer😱
the pics make the cabs look uneven and crooked but they are nice and straight
they will have a leather front baffle and veneer on the top and backs
i also have to build stands to get them off the ground more
regards to all sheafer

 

[Richard Moon]

Hello SLR..

Nice work. It looks nice without veering. ^^

What is the woofer?..

The distance between MSW and woofer looks a bit far..

Would you describe your plan for this speaker?

Thanks..

 

[inertial]

WOW!!

Sheafer, impressive matrix cabinet!!!!!!😎

I only suggest to put grey( or black) wool felt instead leather!😉

Stand..............make they serious!!😀


Cheers,
Paolo

 

[slr 5000]

hi all
thanks for the kind words
my plan for the speakers is to use them as test cabs to get a feel for the sound of the 2/way with the manger transducer the whole project is a bit of an experiment

the bass driver is a eton 12" hexacone and blends very well with the manger i feel ,and to be honest i just took a guess as to the distance between the bass driver & manger
can you explain further why you feel it is too far any advice would be helpfull

im very happy so far and am amazed at how the speakers dissapear in the room and the natural presentation of the mid and highs of the manger but i will do it a little bit different next time

im planning on trying the manger central in between 2x bass drivers next and then ill do some messing around with open baffle designs

 

[tinitus]

my plan for the speakers is to use them as test cabs to get a feel for the sound of the 2/way with the manger transducer the whole project is a bit of an experiment

can you explain further why you feel it is too far any advice would be helpfull

im planning on trying the manger central in between 2x bass drivers next and then ill do some messing around with open baffle designs

Experiment thats a nice experiment 😀

So now I dare critisize such a nice thing
It seems like its too low
Manger should be at listening height
I think some one mentioned a standmount (Paolo?), or just some feet, thick plate or something

Crossing low you should have no concerns about distance between drivers

Doing dipole is no good fore bass, I know many are happy with it
OB would only make sense to me with subs
And dipole subs would be as big as IBs

But sure, a single good woofer with high sensitivity would work
You probably miss the BSC in midbass
Your present woofer is too low on sensitivity or Manger would need attenuation, which would be awfull
Only, a woofer with high enough sensitivity will be low on deep bass
Some could live with that
Personally I would only consider such expencive driver in as system that would be true "fullrange"

 

[slr 5000]

hi tinitus
do not fear as i am not offended by criticism of my design

people who have more experiance than i picking apart my design
can only help me in my future projects making them get progressively better each time

i value very highley the oppinions of others on this site and it is with help from them that i was able to build this project

i plan on making some stands for the speakers in the future which will bring the mangers up to ear level ,they were designed to be standmounts but i just haven,t the time

by trying ob i mean just the mangers and the bass drivers will stay a sealed design but with a q of .5 instead of the .7 it currently uses

i,m also curious as to what the mangers would sound like paired with a 15" to 18" high efficiancy driver

 

[inertial]

hi all


im planning on trying the manger central in between 2x bass drivers next and then ill do some messing around with open baffle designs

Shaefer, stay far from those "monstruosity" and also from dipole ( perhaps Daniela Manger do not reccomend it ) , you will save a lot of time and frustrations!😀


P.S: perdone my stupid question: in your matrix photo it is not clear
the separation of the two volumes. Are they separate, right?

I'm glad you hear they sound good, deseappering well, imaging better and so on.
Keep in mind you are extremly lucky on that!

If you want improve the sound you have to redraw the electronics.
In particular all those nice DBX have to remain ONLY on the signal path of the woofer, not the Manger!!

Excuse if I am annoing but I know where the issues are😎


Cheers,
Paolo

 

[slr 5000]

hi paolo
in the pics the matrix bracing is upside down and the pics were taken before the i boxed out the sections for the manger which is sealed in 10 litre boxes built into the matrix bracing

ive been trying to figure out a way to seperate the manger so it is not running through the dbx but its got me stumped on how to do it

ive got an extra goldpoint passive pre i can use for volume control on the manger but my source (cd)
only has one output, and how would i split this to go into the dbx for bass and the mcintosh 275 that drives the manger 😕

also how do you feel about the manger being used with a high efficency 15"driver for bass duties
can anyone here reccomend one

 

[tinitus]

Are your mid chamber fore Manger also matrix, preferably a bit "finer" than woofer matrix

It wont ever get than a well done matrix like you have made, dont consider nothing else


About sensitivity it seems I have been very wrong
I looked and it says 91db...I thought I have seen 94db

 

[tinitus]

Tricky nut to crack, but interesting

Sometimes I do crazy things and end up way off
But fore some reason I never do whats common, but try different
Which ofcourse I may fail bigtime

Big hifi woofers are rarely much good fore anything but bass, and even that they might not do too good either
I dont know, but I think these little new underhung fellows from Tangband are interesting
Surely not what you would call highend and there may be better drivers out there, maybe Seas or something, but this is basicly the idea

Two pair of 5-6" in WWTWW in a wide curved flat design
Its a closed design and rolls off around 60-70hz, so unfortunately subs are still needed

 

[tinitus]

Maybe two pair of a small driver like SEAS EXCEL W15LY001 could be used
Something in that direction
This driver will also roll off around 75hz

If one can only accept one single woofer
Maybe ask EMS to make a modified 12"...or their field coil might be the obvious choice, and its "adjustable" 😎
Or one could consider AE

 

[slr 5000]

id love to try the manger in a 2/way with one of the ae td 15 drivers
i think they would be a nice match ,but i will have to wait for our aussy dollar to recover first

i feel the eton 12" hexacone im using is a very,very good match but i cant help but long for somnething 15' or bigger

for sale 1 pair of eton 12" hexacones hardly used
willing to do a trade for anything 15" and over pioneer td and ae owners welcome 😀 😀 😀

 

[inertial]

Hi Sheafer,


IMO you need a guidance to avoid to waste a lot of work,time and money😉
Your work have to be understand exactly how good the system is now,
and paragonate with high end commercial brands.
This is a long work , not easy, eh !

When I am talking about "monstruosity" I was thinking exactly as like the drawing you have posted ! No offence here, just warning, you are moving toward a very dangerous road!

You have to motivate why you want a bigger woofer.
12" is not sufficent? IMO you guys are obsessed by high SPL....Why this? ( again no offence here )
Exerpt home theatre, I do not see the reason. This is IMO a wrong habit , 100dB spl CAN BE sufficent .

I am familiar with La Fenice Theater in Venezia and Arena of Verona.
I assicure you the SPL is not so High, even with big orchestra symphonic, when you are seated in a medium row.
And if you do not become deaf in the next 20 years, is better you
change your approch to listen 😀

About How to drive two electronics you need a simply Y adapter after your stepped volume. Is it 10Kohms?
Then you have to add a passive high pass in the signal path for the MSW. Line level, speaker level or both. It depends.
I can help you, no problem🙂

Drop me an e-mail , if you want of course.

Cheers,
Paolo

 

[slr 5000]

hi paolo
thank you for your advice and kind offer of help
i will drop you an email shortly

regards sheafer

 

[inertial]

😎

Paolo

 

[slr 5000]

hi all
has anyone else here done any more work with the manger ?

i have an update on my project if any one is interested

i have 4x scanspeak 25w/8565-01 that im going to pair with the mangers and will report on my results once finnished
i still have not finalised a design yet but have some thoughts ill throw out there and hope you guys will offer some advice /opinions

1) build a copy of the zero box 107 but with the scan drivers instead of the vifas used by manger

2)build a wmw design with a ss 25w 8565 on top and below the manger


as for sealed of ported i am not sure but i am leaning towards sealed with a q of .7 so the box will need to be 180 to 200 litres for 2x the scan 25w per cab

another dilema is the baffle ,should i do a wide or narrow design
each seems to have its up and down sides
i have read in another thread that appx 10 " baffle width will work well with the manger and counter act the rising responce it has towards its lower registers

any ideas or what ever you can add will be much appreciated

regards sheafer

 

[inertial]

has anyone else here done any more work with the manger ?

i have an update on my project if any one is interested [/B]

Hi Shaefer, nice to see you finally ! ;-)
I am interested.

i have 4x scanspeak 25w/8565-01 that im going to pair with the mangers and will report on my results once finnished
i still have not finalised a design yet but have some thoughts ill throw out there and hope you guys will offer some advice /opinions
[/B]

2.5 ways TMW , passive x-overs or other ?

1) build a copy of the zero box 107 but with the scan drivers instead of the vifas used by manger [/B]

Not a bad idea , man!

2)build a wmw design with a ss 25w 8565 on top and below the manger [/B]

Nope! 🙂

as for sealed of ported i am not sure but i am leaning towards sealed with a q of .7 so the box will need to be 180 to 200 litres for 2x the scan 25w per cab[/B]

Sealed. BTW, are you sure of 200 litres ? seems to me a bit exaggerated......check better your datas 🙂

another dilema is the baffle ,should i do a wide or narrow design
each seems to have its up and down sides [/B]

No dilema, narrow of course.

i have read in another thread that appx 10 " baffle width will work well with the manger and counter act the rising responce it has towards its lower registers [/B]

Probabily true, but better if you can make a basic measurement or obtain a serious measurement set from Daniela Manger.

any ideas or what ever you can add will be much appreciated [/B]

We are here exactly for this ! 🙂

Cheers,
Paolo

 

[slr 5000]

hi paolo
ive done some more modeling with lspcad and worked out the following

ok for a q of .707 the box will be 131 l with 50% fill and will give a -3db of 39.7hz , for the bass drivers and the manger will be in a seperate box on top the same size and volume of the zerobox 107 design

i think i might copy as close as possible the zero box design and just vary the depth front to back of the cabs to get the box volume i need for the different bass drivers (ss 25w as opposed to the vifa that the zero box uses )

passive or active hmmm
i have a dbx 260 so active is doable
i have 2xstereo amps of nelson pass f5 in progress which i could use to biamp the system in either passive or active mode im just not sure about the power needed

the f5 is 50w into 8 ohm and my room is 25 m2 so 1x f5 for the mangers and 1x f5 for the bass
sound doable ?

feel free to pick apart my plan
sorry paolo its meant to be a zerobox 103 not 107

 

[inertial]

hi paolo
ive done some more modeling with lspcad and worked out the following

ok for a q of .707 the box will be 131 l with 50% fill and will give a -3db of 39.7hz , for the bass drivers and the manger will be in a seperate box on top the same size and volume of the zerobox 107 design

Sort of "Clone", eh? 🙂
Decent idea, but maybe you can add some little particulars/differences that make a big difference! 🙂
e-mail me.

Volume calculations are always approximations, IMO you can go 100%stuffed and make it a lot smaller.

The separate head is foundamental.

i think i might copy as close as possible the zero box design and just vary the depth front to back of the cabs to get the box volume i need for the different bass drivers (ss 25w as opposed to the vifa that the zero box uses )
[/B]

OK, and maybe will do it also matrix-type 🙂

passive or active hmmm
i have a dbx 260 so active is doable
i have 2xstereo amps of nelson pass f5 in progress which i could use to biamp the system in either passive or active mode im just not sure about the power needed
[/B]

The most logic thing in your specific case is duplicate the output of the master volume/ preamp ( even if it is a passive attenuator!).
One directly into the amp of the MSW
and the second passing trought the DBX into the second amp
, only for SS woofers.

the f5 is 50w into 8 ohm and my room is 25 m2 so 1x f5 for the mangers and 1x f5 for the bass
sound doable ?

feel free to pick apart my plan
sorry paolo its meant to be a zerobox 103 not 107

[/B]

Mmmhhh, Nelson Pass here, you are smart guy! 🙂
F5 is 50W ? Well, I do not remember all those numbers ( I 'm starting become old, guys😀 ).
What is the Z input of the F5 ?

I believe the power can be sufficent ( bass expecially need power) but ONLY if the speaker will sound very good and if you will make a optimal setup in your room. This is not a joke; efficency, powers, all the calculations you want are good for mics, not for humans!


Cheers,
Paolo

 

[Richard Moon]

Swan M12 Woofer..

Hello.

I am considering to build 2 way with Hivi M12 woofer.

It's 93 dB which is a little more efficient than MSW, but the 3rd order Xover IMO cut 2 dB.

Woofer volumn would be around 50 liters and would be ported.
Tuned at 30 Hz..

I need your advices for the enclosure and Xover design.

Outer layer is 24mm thk of white birch plywood and inner layer is 25mm MDF.

It would be very heavy. ^^

Regards.