Wima MKP2 vs. FKP2

[ClaveFremen]

Back to the thread please....


Wima MKP2 and FKP2 are from the same reputable industrial manufacturer, all comments about audiophile parts are not relevant here.


Both are about same size and lead spacing, good quality caps but the FKP2 has a superior construction beacuse it's film/foil while MKP2 is metallized.


This difference imply that has superior high frequecy and pulse performance as stated in the datasheet.


For instance DF:


MKP2



at fC < 0.1 µF0.1 µF < C < 1.0 µF1kHz
10kHz
100kHz< 5 x 10-4
< 8 x 10-4
< 25 x 10-4< 5 x 10-4
< 8 x 10-4
-


FKP2


at fC < 1000 pF1000 pF < C < 4700 pFC > 4700 pF1kHz
10kHz
100kHz
1 MHz< 5 x 10-4
< 6 x 10-4
< 8 x 10-4
< 10 x 10-4< 5 x 10-4
< 6 x 10-4
< 8 x 10-4
-< 5 x 10-4
< 6 x 10-4
-
-


For line level EQ these differences are relevant since frequencies in audio band and up to 100KHz (most audio circuits have around 100Khz bandwidth and sometimes more, this has to be taken in account) are affected.


Is this audible? A lot of ears in the world say yes, your choice.


If your concern is about cost also consider Wima FKS2 (polyester film/foil).

 

[tomchr]

Back to the thread please....
Wima MKP2 and FKP2 are from the same reputable industrial manufacturer, all comments about audiophile parts are not relevant here.

Sorry Mr. Moderator, Sir!

Both are about same size and lead spacing, good quality caps

Not really. Once you get into the larger capacitances (1 uF, for example), you'll find that the FKP is about twice as wide and twice as tall for the same pin spacing. That's not "about the same size".

The FKP is also ~2x the cost of the MKP.

but the FKP2 has a superior construction beacuse it's film/foil while MKP2 is metallized.

Who decides what's "superior"? You?

This difference imply that has superior high frequecy and pulse performance as stated in the datasheet.

I agree with that. I even said the same thing in Post #9 of this thread.

However, the fact that one cap features "superior construction" does not mean that the cap will perform better at audio frequencies, or that the equipment the cap goes into will perform better at audio frequencies.

I'm perfectly capable of reading the data sheets for the caps. I did that before writing Post #9. I also have the background and experience to put the information in the data sheet into context.

If you're going to read me the riot act and throw the data sheet at me, at least bother to explain how the difference between the caps will impact the audio performance, aside from the possible part-to-part variation discussed earlier. Show a measurement of one vs the other. Or, if you prefer to go the subjective route, show the results of an experiment with reasonable scientific controls applied. You know... Double-blind, reasonable sample size, statistical analysis applied.

Tom

 

[ClaveFremen]

Sorry Mr. Moderator, Sir!
(...)
If you're going to read me the riot act and throw the data sheet at me, at least bother to explain how the difference between the caps will impact the audio performance, aside from the possible part-to-part variation discussed earlier. Show a measurement of one vs the other. Or, if you prefer to go the subjective route, show the results of an experiment with reasonable scientific controls applied. You know... Double-blind, reasonable sample size, statistical analysis applied.

Hi Tom,

I don't understand why you respond with such a negative attitude, my post was not inteded as a personal attack to you.

I've just pointed out that according datasheet DF is better for FKP2 starting from 10KHz while you wrote:

The FKP has lower dissipation factor than the MKP at frequencies of 100 kHz or above. I doubt you'll be able to measure any difference in system performance at audio frequencies between the two caps.

I don't know if it can be measured I don't have the equipement but you do, eventually you can help if you want but the only measurement you reported is not relevant IMHO:

I once compared three 220 nF film caps on an HP 4194A impedance analyzer: A $0.50 Panasonic EF-series, a $2 Solen film cap, and a $20 Mundorf silver-in-oil. The Panasonic measured closer to an ideal cap (lower ESR, higher SRF) than the others. The Mundorf measured the worst.

Solen and Mundorf are different designs and WAY bigger from MKP2 and FKP2 which are radial with 5mm LS, I don't know anything about Panasonic EF, I've found only info about a dipped tantalum cap, could you eventually point me to the right thing?

Not really. Once you get into the larger capacitances (1 uF, for example), you'll find that the FKP is about twice as wide and twice as tall for the same pin spacing. That's not "about the same size".

Sorry Tom but you're wrong, I wrote MKP2 and FKP2, that '2' for Wima caps indicates 5mm LS.

The FKP is also ~2x the cost of the MKP.

Absolutely, it's one of the parameters to take in account

Who decides what's "superior"? You?

Again that negative attitude... It depends on application, obviously... for precision, lower DF and pulse performance it's a superior design.

If self-healing is needed, the metallized design is superior.


Just an example from a manufacturer:


Several advantages the Film/Foil capacitor design offers over metallized are a higher insulation resistance, better capacitance stability, high current carrying capabilities for pulse applications (high dV/dt capability) and a lower dissipation factor. The excellent heat dissipation of the Film/Foil design is a result of the metal foil electrodes acting as heat sinks, which draw heat out from the interior of the unit. This superior heat dissipation allows for a higher voltage application, in comparison to the metallized, at the same frequency. The extended foil design also allows for operation at higher peak currents and faster duty cycles.
(Why Specify Film/Foil Capacitors? - SBE Inc. : SBE Inc.)

I agree with that. I even said the same thing in Post #9 of this thread.

However, the fact that one cap features "superior construction" does not mean that the cap will perform better at audio frequencies, or that the equipment the cap goes into will perform better at audio frequencies.

Absolutely but neither me or you brought any 'proof' apart datasheet data, we're expressing our bare opinions so far.

I'm perfectly capable of reading the data sheets for the caps. I did that before writing Post #9. I also have the background and experience to put the information in the data sheet into context.

I'm sure about that, you're a talented and competent engineer that I respect but nevertheless sometimes something could be missed, like in this case for the DF difference at 10KHz or the 5mm LS.

 

[tomchr]

I don't understand why you respond with such a negative attitude, my post was not inteded as a personal attack to you.

Well, it certainly came across that way. I certainly didn't feel the need for a "back to the topic, please!" or a lecture about how to read a data sheet. If you want to talk about attitude, how about exploring your own for a bit? I perceived your response as very arrogant and patronizing, and I don't think it's reasonable to just dump that on me. It takes two to tango. I'm willing to hold up my end.

I've just pointed out that according datasheet DF is better for FKP2 starting from 10KHz while you wrote:

[...]

I don't know if it can be measured I don't have the equipement but you do, eventually you can help if you want but the only measurement you reported is not relevant IMHO:

The measurement I made and referred to was of the ESR and SRF (thereby the ESL of the cap). As you, undoubtedly, know the ESR and DF are linked:

DF = ESR/Xc

If you don't consider ESR to be an important parameter, why would you point out that the FKP2 has better DF above 10 kHz, thereby, better ESR than the MKP2? Is the DF/ESR important or not?

Solen and Mundorf are different designs and WAY bigger from MKP2 and FKP2 which are radial with 5mm LS

I mentioned those as examples of more expensive boutique caps. I was responding specifically to Schmitz77. Please read my posts in context.

I don't know anything about Panasonic EF, I've found only info about a dipped tantalum cap, could you eventually point me to the right thing?

A search for Panasonic EF on Digikey finds them. The specific part I tested was the Panasonic P/N: ECQ-E6224KF.

Sorry Tom but you're wrong, I wrote MKP2 and FKP2, that '2' for Wima caps indicates 5mm LS.

I'm aware of that.

So since we're reading data sheets. How about comparing these two caps:
MKP2C023301B00 (33 nF, 63 VDC): 3 x 7.5 x 7.2 mm (W x H x L).
and
FKP2C023301L00 (33 nF, 63 VDC): 8.5 x 10 x 7.2 mm (W x H x L).

The MKP is nearly three times the width and 33% taller.

If you look at the MKP10 vs FKP10, the difference is even larger:
MKP1G032204J (220 nF, 400 VDC): 9 x 18 x 18 mm (W x H x L)
FKP1G032206D (220 nF, 400 VDC): 13 x 24 x 31.5 mm (W x H x L)

If self-healing is needed, the metallized design is superior.

Interesting. In Post #21 you said the foil type was superior. Now you're saying the opposite.

This is why I tend to shy away from making absolutist statements.

Absolutely but neither me or you brought any 'proof' apart datasheet data, we're expressing our bare opinions so far.

In my view data sheet information is important as it tells you how the component will perform in the circuit. However, data sheets don't always provide all the data you need. For example, if you were interested in the distortion of the cap, you'd be unlikely to find such information in the data sheet.
If you really want this information, you can always measure it. All you need is a sound card and some software...

Tom

 

[ClaveFremen]

Well, it certainly came across that way. I certainly didn't feel the need for a "back to the topic, please!" or a lecture about how to read a data sheet.

Tom, I've already wrote that it was not my intention to attack you.


While I write a reasonable english, it's not my main language, maybe sometimes I miss some nuances...

If you want to talk about attitude, how about exploring your own for a bit? I perceived your response as very arrogant and patronizing, and I don't think it's reasonable to just dump that on me. It takes two to tango. I'm willing to hold up my end.

Read the former paragraph, but in my post I didn't point at you in any way, nor I've used sarcasm, which you did, instead.


I do agree it takes two to tango but maybe you started dancing without being actually invited... 😉 Just kidding 🙂

The measurement I made and referred to was of the ESR and SRF (thereby the ESL of the cap). As you, undoubtedly, know the ESR and DF are linked:

DF = ESR/Xc

If you don't consider ESR to be an important parameter, why would you point out that the FKP2 has better DF above 10 kHz, thereby, better ESR than the MKP2? Is the DF/ESR important or not?

While I don't know many things that you instead know, in fact I know this one. 😉


And yes DF and ESR are important, absolutely.

I mentioned those as examples of more expensive boutique caps. I was responding specifically to Schmitz77. Please read my posts in context.

I probably missed the link to Shmitz, absolutely relevant as an answer to him. Sorry about that.


I still think it's not relevant regarding MKP2/FKP2 (not for ESR/DF but for size and construction) but probably it wasn't even your intention.

A search for Panasonic EF on Digikey finds them. The specific part I tested was the Panasonic P/N: ECQ-E6224KF.

Thanks, now it's more clear. 🙂

I'm aware of that.

So since we're reading data sheets. How about comparing these two caps:
MKP2C023301B00 (33 nF, 63 VDC): 3 x 7.5 x 7.2 mm (W x H x L).
and
FKP2C023301L00 (33 nF, 63 VDC): 8.5 x 10 x 7.2 mm (W x H x L).

The MKP is nearly three times the width and 33% taller.

Absolutely true and still 5mm lead spacing as I wrote, in absolute terms you're right but they're still comparable size caps.

If you look at the MKP10 vs FKP10, the difference is even larger:
MKP1G032204J (220 nF, 400 VDC): 9 x 18 x 18 mm (W x H x L)
FKP1G032206D (220 nF, 400 VDC): 13 x 24 x 31.5 mm (W x H x L)

Tom, I've clearly wrote that I was referring to MKP2 and FKP2, this makes no sense...

Interesting. In Post #21 you said the foil type was superior. Now you're saying the opposite.

This is why I tend to shy away from making absolutist statements.

As I've already wrote clearly my statement was in the context of the question.


As I should take your answer in context, you should do the same with me...

In my view data sheet information is important as it tells you how the component will perform in the circuit. However, data sheets don't always provide all the data you need. For example, if you were interested in the distortion of the cap, you'd be unlikely to find such information in the data sheet.
If you really want this information, you can always measure it. All you need is a sound card and some software...

Absolutely.


Nevertheless sometimes it's not necessary and a simple parts swap can give you an hint.
I do agree that it's not a proof but sometimes it's still enough, at least for me.

 

[tomchr]

Wow, dude. Whatever man.

Peace out.

Tom

 

[ClaveFremen]

Wow, dude. Whatever man.

Peace out.

Tom

I dont know if I'm missing some other nuance but I'll take it as we're again fine with each other 😉

 

[dotneck335]

In my view data sheet information is important as it tells you how the component will perform in the circuit. However, data sheets don't always provide all the data you need. For example, if you were interested in the distortion of the cap, you'd be unlikely to find such information in the data sheet. If you really want this information, you can always measure it. All you need is a sound card and some software...

Since you have the stuff to measure the distortion, could you please measure the distortion difference between FKP and MKP?

 

[tomchr]

Since you have the stuff to measure the distortion, could you please measure the distortion difference between FKP and MKP?

I could...

Which FKP/MKP caps would you like me to measure? What sort of circuit would you like me to include them in? 10 kHz lowpass measured for THD at 1 kHz or something?

Note that the largest FKP2 is 33 nF...

Tom

 

[dotneck335]

Yes, I see that the highest value for an FKP2(LS 5mm)is limited to, as you say, 33nF. But I have an application (100nF) where I could maybe squeeze in a 15mm LS cap. SO I'm wanting to know the difference in distortion between an FKP3C031004C00JSSD and an MKP2C031001F00JSSD (Wima caps). It is for a mixing console LF EQ circuit; so I'm trying to tell whether it will make a difference or not. ???

 

[tomchr]

OK. So would something like a 10 kHz LPF with a 100 nF and a 158 Ω resistor would work then? Or 100 nF + 1.58 kΩ (1 kHz cutoff) and 100 Hz test frequency?

I'd like to get the cutoff frequency up such that the measurement can include 10 harmonics. The low load impedance will result in a relatively high current in the capacitor, thereby, likely increasing any THD contribution it may have. It'd be a nice worst case measurement.

I'm sorta locked into 1 kHz as the test frequency - at least if you expect the distortion of the cap to be low. My precision oscillator is 1 kHz.

I may expand the scope a bit and include other capacitor types as well. I'm thinking to turn it into a page about capacitor distortion on my website.

What's your timeline for this?

Tom

 

[dotneck335]

Hey, Tom, I appreciate your efforts! No real rush here. "I'm thinking to turn it into a page about capacitor distortion on my website." is a FINE idea!!
The 1 KHz is probably good as a starting point. As I said, my application is for LF EQ circuit---a shelver @ 60 Hz.
I did read with great interest your thread on the Nichicon MUSE BiPolars which made me rethink my coupling cap strategy.

 

[TNT]

I believe you. But the measurements that we have don't always tell the whole story. Old Neve mixing consoles, which are full of transformers and awful-measuring tantalum capacitors, sound absolutely divine. I'm NOT saying that the $20 Mundorf will sound better because it measures worse, either. I just think that we can hear things we can't measure (YET).

But they do. And the story ends with that the human often prefers a bit of distorsion. And you do hear it. Noting to be ashamed of.

//

 

[tomchr]

Hey, Tom, I appreciate your efforts! No real rush here.

You're welcome. And good to know about the timing. I'll add it to the list. I'm looking to build out the resources section of my website and these sorts of projects lend themselves well to that. I'll drop a line here once I have the article up.

I did read with great interest your thread on the Nichicon MUSE BiPolars which made me rethink my coupling cap strategy.

The Nichicon MUSE UES-series are quite excellent. Fear not the electrolytic caps. These are not your grandfather's electrolytics. 🙂

Tom

 

[pixelgarden]

You're welcome. And good to know about the timing. I'll add it to the list. I'm looking to build out the resources section of my website and these sorts of projects lend themselves well to that. I'll drop a line here once I have the article up.



The Nichicon MUSE UES-series are quite excellent. Fear not the electrolytic caps. These are not your grandfather's electrolytics. 🙂

Tom

Hi Tom, Can you link your thread on Muse UES bipolar capacitors. I am in proccess of selecting input coupling capacitor in my Amp. Are Jantzen Crosscap much different (better?) than Dayton ?

 

[asuslover]

I know this is an old thread, but
Tom ,
I didn't feel that ClaveFremen had any intention to attack you , while your answers are a little bit too abrasive sometimes.
To be honest, it is a little bit uncomfortable to read these exchanges.

 

[tomchr]

Hi Tom, Can you link your thread on Muse UES bipolar capacitors. I am in proccess of selecting input coupling capacitor in my Amp. Are Jantzen Crosscap much different (better?) than Dayton ?

I think it was a thread started by twest820: https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/nichicon-muse-es-bipolar-caps-measured-120db-thd-140db-imd.270676/post-4244524

I know this is an old thread, but
Tom ,
I didn't feel that ClaveFremen had any intention to attack you , while your answers are a little bit too abrasive sometimes.
To be honest, it is a little bit uncomfortable to read these exchanges.

I find it curious that you choose to pull the scab off of that wound. Any thoughts on that? What are you trying to accomplish with this?

That exchange happened two years ago at the height of COVID. Do you think it's possible that I was getting a bit of cabin fever from being socially isolated for months with no end in sight? Do you think I could have had a bad day that day? Or that maybe I had (or maybe still have) some mental issues that led me to respond that way?

I do communicate directly. Some are uncomfortable with that. That's unfortunate.

Tom

 

[asuslover]

Tom, while you were dealing with "cabin fevers" I was struggling to find a way to fly from US to my home country, to bury my father.

I am not trying to accomplish anything with this, it was more like a friendly observation,
I like your work, btw I am probably one of your first modulus86 and parallel86 buyers.
Looking forward to reading nice and friendly conversations.
Gabe

 

[mbrennwa]

Tom, did you ever do any of the capacitor measurements discussed in the previous posts?

 

[tomchr]

Tom, while you were dealing with "cabin fevers" I was struggling to find a way to fly from US to my home country, to bury my father.

I'm sorry to hear that. It's hard to lose a parent under normal circumstances. Not being able to grieve and support each other because of COVID only made that a million times worse. I really do feel for those who lost loved ones under those circumstances.

I am not trying to accomplish anything with this, it was more like a friendly observation,

Re-reading those posts I do agree that the gain on my trigger was dialled up too high. That's something I've been working on changing for the past year or so. I have the help I need.

Tom, did you ever do any of the capacitor measurements discussed in the previous posts?

No, not yet. I did in the meantime upgrade to the APx555, though. Maybe I'll be able to measure a difference between those caps. 🙂

Tom