But amplifiers sound different in different rooms, no? Geez, can’t seem to catch a break.
What’s outside Pleasantville? (Trying to stay calm and keep from revealing he was from the future) I’m from a town where the roads don’t end at the edge of town. It’s not like Pleasantville. There are some places that the road doesn't go in a circle. There are some places where the road keeps going.
Keeps going?
Yeah, it all just keeps going.
What’s outside Pleasantville? (Trying to stay calm and keep from revealing he was from the future) I’m from a town where the roads don’t end at the edge of town. It’s not like Pleasantville. There are some places that the road doesn't go in a circle. There are some places where the road keeps going.
Keeps going?
Yeah, it all just keeps going.
Agreed.
But not all crosstalk is created equal. Same as with different kinds of distortion, different kinds of phase noise, different kinds of white noise, etc.
Did I tell you I read a book on Noise recently. Bart Kosko.
I do know it. That's why I said it seems like.
Like his concocted question that I responded to, I would like to know his response to my concocted probe.
Has anyone considered the noise outside the system? The noise that doesn’t affect the audio signal anywhere in the system. The noise that is outside the house wiring, audio cables, power cords, electronics, speakers, seismic type noise, external RF. Yes, I know what you’re thinking, what’s left?
One other thing occured to me which can significantly affect soundstage.
Amplifier-speaker interaction.
Let me explain.
We do not listen to perfect resistors. We may measure amps with resistors on output, or simulated speaker impedance, but in real life scenario amps and speakers interact.
When i am comparing four/five amps, i do not just swap the amps, i do use ultracurve to flatten the fr response in the listening position.
One would expect that eq curve for each amp would be the same, but it never is!
No wonder people hear differences in sound, when fr response is altered. This is due to damping factors of amps and speaker impedance variations accross the fr response.
Does these fr response variations affect soundstage? Likely.
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I don’t think headphones will ever trump speakers in imaging.
Let’s agree that imaging is 95% recording, speakers and room acoustics and less to do with the amplifier and preamp.
That said, l always talk about imaging when I audition my new stuff (audition being very subjective and not like hard measurements) because if you have a recording that has great imaging and on auditioning it through a new DIY amp it sounds terrible, you will know you have a problem. You really will need a bad amp to arrive at that situation IMV but you should test for it.
My go to CD recording for imaging is Bernstein with the New York Philharmonic. Recorded IIRC in the Metropolitan Hotel in 1964 - if you see a copy you should get it. The Abbado recording (mid 1970’s and on vinyl is also very good for imaging.
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I think that another factor to consider would be the cost, both material of the components and of the design and its times.
The real achievement would be to be able to do really good at a human cost (and already we have many examples of this).
The real achievement would be if the necessary technology were within the reach of, if not everyone, at least many engineer/designer at a "reasonable" cost.
I read a review of a mono amplifier that costs more than $200,000.
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/ive-been-to-the-top-of-audio-everest.403643/
The one who listened to the system it was in (the system worth about $1 million) said that amp sounded great.
I didn't believe that.
For what known reason should an amplifier, even if it costs 200,000 dollars, sound perfect?
Why couldn't it have a bit strident highs, a bit too forward mids and a bit rubbery lows?
What makes the sound high quality when listening a system?
A system worth almost 1 million dollars?
The real achievement would be to be able to do really good at a human cost (and already we have many examples of this).
The real achievement would be if the necessary technology were within the reach of, if not everyone, at least many engineer/designer at a "reasonable" cost.
I read a review of a mono amplifier that costs more than $200,000.
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/ive-been-to-the-top-of-audio-everest.403643/
The one who listened to the system it was in (the system worth about $1 million) said that amp sounded great.
I didn't believe that.
For what known reason should an amplifier, even if it costs 200,000 dollars, sound perfect?
Why couldn't it have a bit strident highs, a bit too forward mids and a bit rubbery lows?
What makes the sound high quality when listening a system?
A system worth almost 1 million dollars?
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True. But any one of those things can degrade imaging significantly if something is wrong. Asymmetrical preamp crosstalk being one example.
Why are we listening to music in the first place, it’s to stimulate emotions of whatever kind.
How those emotions are triggered differs from person to person.
For many humans a simple radio will do, preferably playing loud with lots of distortion. Others prefer MP3 streams played over earbuds and only very few audio freaks, as most of us are, are not that easily satisfied and keep looking for the next even more technologically advanced step to satisfy whatever we are looking for.
So when talking about listening to music, it’s not just subjective versus objective, it spans the whole bandwidth from left to right and beyond.
And not yet read mentioning so far, don’t forget that budgets can be strongly influencing ones taste.
Hans
No, it's because soundstage isn't real. It's an illusion, subtly (or not) that's different to everyone. And he put the glass back.
I have done the same sort of thing slightly moving a small metal cover shield plate about 1 foot above the floor and somewhere between the speakers. The effect is quite audible, even for small movements. The time delay of the reflection creates a phasing problem with the direct sound from the speakers that you can hear by moving your head. If the phasing problem is removed then moving your head doesn't result in hearing a phasing problem. Once all the reflectors are controlled, then sound stage sounds about to same for everyone who sits in the middle between the speakers. At least that's what happens if the system and room are good enough.
You can say, where is the piano? Where is the vocalist? Where is the percussionist? And anyone can point to the spot from left to right. You can even ask who is in the front and who is in the back of the stage?
You can say, where is the piano? Where is the vocalist? Where is the percussionist? And anyone can point to the spot from left to right. You can even ask who is in the front and who is in the back of the stage?
That should be easy to test by removing the variations with eq. A good amplifier should be +/- 0.25dB into a real speaker. Is that enough to make a significant difference
This is very true. But on here it's 'X is better than Y' not 'this is acceptable to me'. And then the fun starts. If only it was accepted that measurements are the only universal thing we can discuss (even if it is not known what they exactly mean) and shared listening experiences which are impossible with geographic spread. Single listener anecdotes are not useful data other than for forming a clique or starting an investigation (IMO).
also true, especially for audio reviewers who give highest score to expensive products.
Its always when people like him run out of tech arguments they either start to do ad hominems, twisting and lying or misrepresent others.
Mark is more the last type.
Jan
To show the deep rooted mistrust of people who measure in the media
https://www.stereophile.com/content...stening-thöress-eht-mkii-integrated-amplifier
"On the way back to NYC, my BFF runnin' buddy, who was driving, laughed, saying, "Herb, do you think objectivist audiophiles host listening parties like this?" I snickered. "If they do, they don't invite me." Then, silently, my Herb-brain wondered what measurementphiles might notice about the sound if they were there today listening with us to horn speakers and tube amps made in the 1930s."
He is describing a person who doesn't exist and creating a stereotype to fan the flames of ardent supporters of his view. Not really helpful even if it creates clicks.
https://www.stereophile.com/content...stening-thöress-eht-mkii-integrated-amplifier
"On the way back to NYC, my BFF runnin' buddy, who was driving, laughed, saying, "Herb, do you think objectivist audiophiles host listening parties like this?" I snickered. "If they do, they don't invite me." Then, silently, my Herb-brain wondered what measurementphiles might notice about the sound if they were there today listening with us to horn speakers and tube amps made in the 1930s."
He is describing a person who doesn't exist and creating a stereotype to fan the flames of ardent supporters of his view. Not really helpful even if it creates clicks.
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