Even if you can measure it. What does it tell you. Time and again Thd has been shown to be almost completely irrelevant. Trained ears can hear the difference between a Stradivarius and some random violin. And even though they can measure a few parameters. "The ear is a supreme detection device and the brain is a far more sophisticated analyser of complex sounds than any system yet developed to assess musical quality." - Colin Gough received the 2001 Science Writing Award for Professionals in Acoustics from the Acoustical Society of America for this article.
How do you measure the tone of something? Or are differences in tone simply a figment of human imagination.
I don't know if you watch American football because the above line reminds me of that. There are statistic fanatics who use stats to argue every player's performance without even watching the game! Stats are very useful but without the context of the "action", it's hard to gauge the impact of a player have on such complex game. However, as stats getting more and more sophisticated it will get easier to make assumptions--after all many coaches have to rely on stats come draft or hiring time since they can't possibly watch every game tape so it is useful. Anyway, just a thought.
Damn, it's not even summer and I already miss winter football.
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Is that a substitute for an actual argument?
Harmonic structure. See Harry Olson's excellent book, "Music, Physics, and Engineering." Wonderful introduction to basic analysis of instrument tone.
Try choke input. Honest.
ok... if you must compromise and use a capacitor then use a 10uF motor run type (big old GE's are ideal).
And if you really do think you need a bigger capacitor (you don't, and believe me, choke input IS better) then use 6BY5GA.
I honestly have no audio use for GZ34!
Choke input? Very good but expensive especially at higher voltages.
Yes I use motor run capacitors, and TV damper diodes! Some of them can tolerate quite decent values of capacitance. Like you I have no application for silly over-priced nonsense!
Paul
Your problem is with different points. You are mixing up audible "difference" with "preference". They are not the same!Make your plots and point out which mic setup is best without hearing. You can't.
My question to you is regarding post #26 where you mentioned "audible differences". It seems that you don't have facts to support your claim that "to some extent audible differences are measurable. But not all can be explained by measurement. "
I've seen two seemingly remarkable claims made in this thread. The assertion that different choices of rectifier tube can significantly alter the treble response of the amplifier seems strange. The audio signal path goes through the PSU capacitors, but not, in any appreciable way, through the rectifier. After all, for a large portion of the 60Hz or 50Hz mains cycle, the rectifier is completely non-conducting (when the voltage on the transformer terminals is less than the voltage on the reservoir capacitor), and so at least for that portion of the time, the rectifier is behaving as if it is totally disconnected from anything, as far as the audio signal is concerned. An effect that came and went 60 times per second would have far more noticeable consequences than merely altering the treble response! As SY said, it would surely require an extraordinarily incompetent design in order for the treble response to be affected by the choice of rectifier. (In fact, how *would* one go about trying to "design" such a feature, even if one wanted to?!)
A more subtle, and only slightly less implausible, assertion is that there can exist differences in amplifier performance that are audible, but that are not capable of being measured in the laboratory. In other words, that the human ear is capable of detecting finer distinctions than can be measured. This would have to mean, presumably, that two waveforms that appeared to be *identical* according to any scientific measurement with spectrum analyzers, etc., could nevertheless be reliably and repeatedly distinguished by human listeners when the waveforms were played to them through loudspeakers. On the face of it, given the accuracy of modern measuring apparatus, this would appear to be beyond plausibility.
One of the crucial elements involved in actually performing any such tests would be to ensure, through double-blind listening tests, that the listeners really are able objectively and reliably to distinguish the two supposedly different sounds. One only has to look at some of the "tweaker" discussion groups to see that there certainly exist a lot of people who believe they hear differences when obviously there are none (magic stones on transformers, etc., etc.).
In Carl Sagan's words, "extraordinary claims require extraordinary proofs." Unless hard scientific proof can be produced of the ability of the human ear to discriminate between two sounds that measure identically, then it seems to me that the overwhelmingly more probable explanation for anecdotal evidence along these lines is that either the two sounds *can* in fact be distinguished by measurement, or else that the supposed difference of sounds cannot be objectively confirmed.
Chris
Thanks, Chris. Nice to hear a real physicist's take, and you expressed my own thoughts more clearly and directly than I could have. We can measure single photons, we can drop spaceships into precise trajectories past Pluto, we can image surfaces at atomic level, but we can't measure hifi amplifiers?
Hey there,
reading these two statements, it seems to me that one has to distinguish between two things here:
The GZ34 the O/P found are ridiculously overpriced - I wouldn't use them either. I guess hardly anyone in the forum will object.
But the first statements sounds as if the GZ34 itself, or any dedicated double rectifier is useless in audio applications. Wouldn't really agree to that, as it is very convenient to have a full-wave rectifier in one bottle instead of using two damper diodes. As damper diodes are usually designed for low duty cycles and short current pulses, you have to derate their current capability significantly when using them as a rectifier - which might be a pitfall for inexperienced DIY'lers, as it is not always stated in the datasheets.
Greetings,
Andreas
I agree totally with Chris, however they are yet to invent a machine that can accurately measure how music 'feels'. As this is totally up to the discretion of the listener, no two measurements can possibly be the same. Having said this, I could not justify any 'feeling' worth a couple of grand in a power stage....
I agree totally with Chris, however they are yet to invent a machine that can accurately measure how music 'feels'. As this is totally up to the discretion of the listener, no two measurements can possibly be the same. Having said this, I could not justify any 'feeling' worth a couple of grand in a power stage....
Me too of course, and I knew that the rectifier is disconnected 90% of the time; grrr!
Chris Pope's piece is, as Sy wrote, superbly succinct.
That 90%! that's a real killer isn't it?
I recall a magazine article which endeavoured to justify the new price for the WE300Bs ($1200 the pair); the man who wrote the piece should be in politics (if he isn't already). An unbelievable talent for writing waffle and hinting at aural miracles described in terms that are not very far from the mumbo-jumbo one might hear around a cooking-pot in some primitive village or used to justify the execution of a witch around 1625. There was plenty about the individual serial numbers and test sheet and the cherry-wood boxes; oh dear.
Thanks Chris
Paul
You forgot the beads and rattles....Me too of course, and I knew that the rectifier is disconnected 90% of the time; grrr!
Chris Pope's piece is, as Sy wrote, superbly succinct.
That 90%! that's a real killer isn't it?
I recall a magazine article which endeavoured to justify the new price for the WE300Bs ($1200 the pair); the man who wrote the piece should be in politics (if he isn't already). An unbelievable talent for writing waffle and hinting at aural miracles described in terms that are not very far from the mumbo-jumbo one might hear around a cooking-pot in some primitive village or used to justify the execution of a witch around 1625. There was plenty about the individual serial numbers and test sheet and the cherry-wood boxes; oh dear.
Thanks Chris
Paul
Well said:
Some goes for those obsessed with oxygen-free copper cables for loudspeaker runs...and yes mains cables too!..perfect snakeoil salesman flannel.
Any Far Eastern input chokes certainly aren't wound of o2 free Cu and the o/p stages sim often have appalling soldered connections.
richy
How does one measure 'Sound Stage'?
'Sound Stage' being the interpretation of sound to provide multidimensional positioning of the sources such that one perceives that the instruments are positioned and not just in front.
This is something that a sound reproduction system either has or does not have in my experience. All of the SS amps I've owned have failed to produce it. The amp I've experienced it with best were both small SE amps (6P1P and 6P41S).
'Sound Stage' being the interpretation of sound to provide multidimensional positioning of the sources such that one perceives that the instruments are positioned and not just in front.
This is something that a sound reproduction system either has or does not have in my experience. All of the SS amps I've owned have failed to produce it. The amp I've experienced it with best were both small SE amps (6P1P and 6P41S).
No, they can't:
How many notes would a virtuoso violinist pay for a Stradivarius? | Music | The Guardian
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/03/s...en-old-and-new-violins-stradivarius-lags.html
Sure you can measure 'tones'. Transform them from frequency to space (fourier, laplace, wavelet) and you see what's going on.
And you can measure the differences but it's your brain which tells you if it sounds right or wrong. But it's also your brain which is influenced by some overpriced tubes.
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