So,
That guitar feedback at the beginning of "Revolution", nothing but wrong when it was recorded...
But then perhaps I'm one of the few here old enough to remember when it was released.
That guitar feedback at the beginning of "Revolution", nothing but wrong when it was recorded...
But then perhaps I'm one of the few here old enough to remember when it was released.
Yeah, I'm Old Enough...
The intro on 'Holiday In Cambodia' (Dead Kennedys) is a major near bleeder on most systems.
On a really good system it sounds great, boring even.
Eric.
The intro on 'Holiday In Cambodia' (Dead Kennedys) is a major near bleeder on most systems.
On a really good system it sounds great, boring even.
Eric.
interesting..
i agree with steves interesting posts -
how we are all are on our own audio path -whether that is digital low distortion numbers-
or 'live'
or analog classic tube sound..
or whatever
Being 19years old,i hear crap on the radio,i grew up with it-
modern pop -mmm compression.
sometimes i listen to classical music,and am refreshed-
i like the dynamic range-even listening to concert FM on radio
i stil get out the DnB,hard dance and synth mp3s,(encoded at 190kpbs + ofcourse😉 )
and then i listen to real acoustic music-
and i enjoy it i think as i age( i mean mature) i will appreciate more vocal,acoustic,real music
a very interesting thread.
SO many factors and variables and concepts in the whole audio experience.
my site
i agree with steves interesting posts -
how we are all are on our own audio path -whether that is digital low distortion numbers-
or 'live'
or analog classic tube sound..
or whatever
Being 19years old,i hear crap on the radio,i grew up with it-
modern pop -mmm compression.
sometimes i listen to classical music,and am refreshed-
i like the dynamic range-even listening to concert FM on radio
i stil get out the DnB,hard dance and synth mp3s,(encoded at 190kpbs + ofcourse😉 )
and then i listen to real acoustic music-
and i enjoy it i think as i age( i mean mature) i will appreciate more vocal,acoustic,real music
a very interesting thread.
SO many factors and variables and concepts in the whole audio experience.
my site
Modern radio and recordings use multi-band compression, also caslled 'max loudness'.
This is the problem with what you are hearing.
Eric.
This is the problem with what you are hearing.
Eric.
Art, Artiface, Money for Nothin...
The Orban Optimod was for many years the tool of choice of many RF engineers for final grooming of the audio path for both FM and MTS television. As the name implies, it is also the modulator providing an IF output to the exciter or transmitter.
One of the many appeals of this product is that the settings can be physically locked preventing personnel who are not responsible for proper modulation of the RF carrier form tweaking them.
The engineer of course reports to the stations GM and has a dotted line connection to the program director. Depending on the station, and by this I mean most if not all commercial stations, the engineer will experience a great pressure to maintain a relative loudness "on the dial" with respect to their comparative broadcasters. Here lies nature of one evil audio beast.
Good recording engineers understand this and will often make pop recordings that account for this with astonishing results. Nine inch nails sounds great on FM, even better on CD and best live. But one factor that that has overwhelmingly influenced the sound of Trent Reznors work is the factor of relative loudness "on the dial".
Chances are Mr. Reznor wasn’t aware of all this when he was finding his voice. As an artist he was looking for a profitable place in the pop culture industry needing to deliver product in three (four counting music video) distinctively different media. The successful and talented artist will often follow a path of influence based on motivations from artists work and personal passions for what sounds right to them. A good producer and recording engineer will be quintessentially important in this process.
Take a look at the dynamic range of some of the old Queen recordings. This stuff was recorded so tight to peak that there was almost no dynamic range. And yet they are great sounding rock and roll that is almost impervious to the effects of both good and bad broadcast signal processing. The guys who engineered and mastered these recordings understood how to craft their product to respond to the total path of distribution under multiple media.
Band specific dynamics processing was something of the holly grail for me during my broadcasting days. I wanted it for tailoring weak voices in talent and for final processing before sending the program audio to satellite uplink (Optimod didn’t readily adapt to satellite exciters).
Latter I looked high and low (I guess that a sort of band specific pun) for band specific dynamics in either a DAW feature or on an outboard box for postproduction audio applications. As I ran screaming from my career in professional audio these platforms were really just becoming available.
I'm not to sure how often this feature is used in recording today although I’m sure that it has been a prevalent influence in broadcasting since the mid to late 70's.
Perhaps Dee Schneider is a dummy. Wish I made as much money as he did. I went to college with some people who talked about having Twisted Sister play at their senior prom. It was before they hit MTV but they were reported to be every bit as freaky. Here is an act that made some decent money and had a little fun in the process. Their greatest failure may have been in not creating a genre for themselves that could evolve to a higher art or to continually meet the tastes of the pop culture consuming public. This is not an uncommon occurrence in the music industry, most often attributed to legendary hubris, ego, and personal abuse from controlled substances.
An analogy that I’ve often used is that money, combined with media is like rancid meat, they both attract maggots. The allure of sex, wealth, power and fame does not attract pure art. It has however acted as an incredible motivator for young and hungry souls to become artists. I once asked a musician friend from Cleveland what the origin of "the Akron Sound" was. He reported it to be a unique combination of middle class sensibilities where kids had access to instruments and training while growing up in an age of knowing that rock and roll (or funk) could lead them to a path of fame and fortune. Some of them found art along the way. Others found careers doing other things.
Of course art for arts sake is just another form of self-indulgence. Art that shares something common in the human experience is what others can find relative.
Perhaps what the issue with this years young new performers is that they are expecting too much from an audience that expects little more than a flashy video.
My humble opinions.
-Dave
(Long conference calls are great for support DIYaudio addictions)
The Orban Optimod was for many years the tool of choice of many RF engineers for final grooming of the audio path for both FM and MTS television. As the name implies, it is also the modulator providing an IF output to the exciter or transmitter.
One of the many appeals of this product is that the settings can be physically locked preventing personnel who are not responsible for proper modulation of the RF carrier form tweaking them.
The engineer of course reports to the stations GM and has a dotted line connection to the program director. Depending on the station, and by this I mean most if not all commercial stations, the engineer will experience a great pressure to maintain a relative loudness "on the dial" with respect to their comparative broadcasters. Here lies nature of one evil audio beast.
Good recording engineers understand this and will often make pop recordings that account for this with astonishing results. Nine inch nails sounds great on FM, even better on CD and best live. But one factor that that has overwhelmingly influenced the sound of Trent Reznors work is the factor of relative loudness "on the dial".
Chances are Mr. Reznor wasn’t aware of all this when he was finding his voice. As an artist he was looking for a profitable place in the pop culture industry needing to deliver product in three (four counting music video) distinctively different media. The successful and talented artist will often follow a path of influence based on motivations from artists work and personal passions for what sounds right to them. A good producer and recording engineer will be quintessentially important in this process.
Take a look at the dynamic range of some of the old Queen recordings. This stuff was recorded so tight to peak that there was almost no dynamic range. And yet they are great sounding rock and roll that is almost impervious to the effects of both good and bad broadcast signal processing. The guys who engineered and mastered these recordings understood how to craft their product to respond to the total path of distribution under multiple media.
Band specific dynamics processing was something of the holly grail for me during my broadcasting days. I wanted it for tailoring weak voices in talent and for final processing before sending the program audio to satellite uplink (Optimod didn’t readily adapt to satellite exciters).
Latter I looked high and low (I guess that a sort of band specific pun) for band specific dynamics in either a DAW feature or on an outboard box for postproduction audio applications. As I ran screaming from my career in professional audio these platforms were really just becoming available.
I'm not to sure how often this feature is used in recording today although I’m sure that it has been a prevalent influence in broadcasting since the mid to late 70's.
Perhaps Dee Schneider is a dummy. Wish I made as much money as he did. I went to college with some people who talked about having Twisted Sister play at their senior prom. It was before they hit MTV but they were reported to be every bit as freaky. Here is an act that made some decent money and had a little fun in the process. Their greatest failure may have been in not creating a genre for themselves that could evolve to a higher art or to continually meet the tastes of the pop culture consuming public. This is not an uncommon occurrence in the music industry, most often attributed to legendary hubris, ego, and personal abuse from controlled substances.
An analogy that I’ve often used is that money, combined with media is like rancid meat, they both attract maggots. The allure of sex, wealth, power and fame does not attract pure art. It has however acted as an incredible motivator for young and hungry souls to become artists. I once asked a musician friend from Cleveland what the origin of "the Akron Sound" was. He reported it to be a unique combination of middle class sensibilities where kids had access to instruments and training while growing up in an age of knowing that rock and roll (or funk) could lead them to a path of fame and fortune. Some of them found art along the way. Others found careers doing other things.
Of course art for arts sake is just another form of self-indulgence. Art that shares something common in the human experience is what others can find relative.
Perhaps what the issue with this years young new performers is that they are expecting too much from an audience that expects little more than a flashy video.
My humble opinions.
-Dave
(Long conference calls are great for support DIYaudio addictions)
Well, since I grew up in a suburb of Akron (Stow) and have most of my experience with bands in the Akron/Cleveland/Youngstown area, I am kind of confused as to what the "Akron Sound" is... Could you describe what you mean? From what I've heard around here, it's probably the bar band sound. You know, Lynard Skynard wannabee bands ("Let's hear some free bird!") 😉
Good post, btw.
Ive come to think of the Akron Sound, as the bands that came out of the area in the late 70's early 80' like Devo, the Pretenders or Rick Nielson and of course Don Was. Not sure that that’s what constitutes a genre, but nonetheless I’ve always been impressed that so many came form the area around the same time. Its also very likely that Ive exaggerated my geography a little to include some of these artists.
I grew up in Buffalo. I can only think of Rick James, Grover Washington and the Goo Goo Dolls as being famous pop artists from the area. Certainly too diverse and chronologicly spread out to define a "Buffalo Sound" genre.
A couple of different musicians from the Akron area tell me stories of doing sessions for Bootsy Collins and George Clinton, but I think they a really more Cleveland and Cincinnati.
Regardless of the geography, there was still a motivation of hunger (financial, emotional or artistic) within an ethic of hard work that created a lot of second and third generation Rock and Roll.
-Dave
Of course I make no great clames to expertese with most of the material I post here. I just enjoy trying to share interesting ideas with interesting poeple.
I grew up in Buffalo. I can only think of Rick James, Grover Washington and the Goo Goo Dolls as being famous pop artists from the area. Certainly too diverse and chronologicly spread out to define a "Buffalo Sound" genre.
A couple of different musicians from the Akron area tell me stories of doing sessions for Bootsy Collins and George Clinton, but I think they a really more Cleveland and Cincinnati.
Regardless of the geography, there was still a motivation of hunger (financial, emotional or artistic) within an ethic of hard work that created a lot of second and third generation Rock and Roll.
-Dave
Of course I make no great clames to expertese with most of the material I post here. I just enjoy trying to share interesting ideas with interesting poeple.
BUFFALO BILL.
Hi,
Aren't "The Pretenders" a British band?
Or maybe there's more than one?
I'm reffering to Chrissie Hynde's group.
Cheers,😉
Hi,
Aren't "The Pretenders" a British band?
Or maybe there's more than one?
I'm reffering to Chrissie Hynde's group.
Cheers,😉
Hey my confrence call is over.
I need to go do some REEL work. I agree she sounds British, as do a lot of American rock and roll folks, But I did just google this:
http://www.infoplease.com/ipea/A0771192.html
singer
Born: 9/7/1951
Birthplace: Akron, Ohio
Chrissie Hynde has served as songwriter, guitarist, and lead singer of the Pretenders, the band she helped to found in 1978
I need to go do some REEL work. I agree she sounds British, as do a lot of American rock and roll folks, But I did just google this:
http://www.infoplease.com/ipea/A0771192.html
singer
Born: 9/7/1951
Birthplace: Akron, Ohio
Chrissie Hynde has served as songwriter, guitarist, and lead singer of the Pretenders, the band she helped to found in 1978
Dave,
A quote from the website you referred to...
That 'splains my confusion + the fact that their first album sported the British flag on the pocket.
BTW, they're back releasing music.
Cheers,😉
A quote from the website you referred to...
That 'splains my confusion + the fact that their first album sported the British flag on the pocket.
BTW, they're back releasing music.
Cheers,😉
Hey, no accusation intended... sorry if I came across with that tone. I was just amazed that anyone outside Akron was talking about it, and that there was something as interesting as the "Akron" sound! Since you posted, I researched a little, and came up with a couple websites dedicated to the early punk/new wave stuff from around here during the late '70s early '80s. Rubber city rebels, Devo, etc.
It was kind of funny... my wife (then girlfriend) had an apartment in Cuyahoga Falls that was owned by the uncle? (can't remember, but some relation-I think it was his uncle) of Mark Mothersbaugh from Devo. Not that it really matters... one of those my brother's friend's sister's uncle's cousin kinda things.
I have run across all kinds of amazing talent around here. A friend of mine from chicago came here to study music at Cleveland Institute / Case western, and he seemed to think we had a pretty good scene around Cleveland. There are A LOT of people around here that are still living in 1982.
Has anyone noticed (where you're at) that the local music scene is all but dead now? There is just NOTHING going on right now. I don't know if it's that the American Idol no-talent types are so big, or what, but there is no demand for rock bands of any sort right now! In the 80's at least people wanted to hear good music being played live (not lip synced with the latest dance moves- what a bunch of SH!T!)
Don't even get me started... It's totally depressing.
Steve
I always figure that if there is something going on around me, that I'll be the last to know about it.
DC had, or perhaps still has, a big live music scene built around something called Go Go. I only once really heard it. A band called Kilimanjaro was playing at a street festival in DC. It was kind of like listening to Big Twist and the Mello Fellows meets the P-Funk All Stars. At least 8 guys playing all kinds of brass, a whole bunch of other guys too all playing fast, loud, and tight.
I think the live music scene lost the last of its allure for me after the Big White fire. Its just too sad thinking about how all those people lost their lives due to the sum of the actions of a couple of idiots.
I guess I decided to change my signature line as a realization came to me about a lot of the acrimony that’s been floating around. One of the things I really never warmed up to about broadcasting and audio were the verbal ******* wars and dangling egos.
Its probably best to go work someplace were you are sure that everyone you work with is smarter than you. It does wonders for humility, and makes everyday an adventure. I'm always learning something new. On rare occasion I get to share something with someone that they hadn’t experienced before, those days aren’t too bad either. I find I don’t have much use for trying to impress people these days; it’s really enough just to get along and help out wherever I can.
DC had, or perhaps still has, a big live music scene built around something called Go Go. I only once really heard it. A band called Kilimanjaro was playing at a street festival in DC. It was kind of like listening to Big Twist and the Mello Fellows meets the P-Funk All Stars. At least 8 guys playing all kinds of brass, a whole bunch of other guys too all playing fast, loud, and tight.
I think the live music scene lost the last of its allure for me after the Big White fire. Its just too sad thinking about how all those people lost their lives due to the sum of the actions of a couple of idiots.
I guess I decided to change my signature line as a realization came to me about a lot of the acrimony that’s been floating around. One of the things I really never warmed up to about broadcasting and audio were the verbal ******* wars and dangling egos.
Its probably best to go work someplace were you are sure that everyone you work with is smarter than you. It does wonders for humility, and makes everyday an adventure. I'm always learning something new. On rare occasion I get to share something with someone that they hadn’t experienced before, those days aren’t too bad either. I find I don’t have much use for trying to impress people these days; it’s really enough just to get along and help out wherever I can.
I have often thought that 'rap music' [non sequitur, I know] came from the boom of poorly designed bass speakers.
A design failure of the cheap equipment used as a punchy rhythm instrument.
Wasn't 'Owner of a Lonely Heart' by Yes recorded specifically for low fidelity AM car radios?
A design failure of the cheap equipment used as a punchy rhythm instrument.
Wasn't 'Owner of a Lonely Heart' by Yes recorded specifically for low fidelity AM car radios?
Most studios used to have a set of small speakers sitting on top of the console made by a company called Auratone. They were almost universally recognized as the low fidelity reference. Once a project was mixed on the mains, it would be cross-referenced on the Auratones to check for low-fi compatibility.
The advent of the Meyer HD-1 and Genelec 1031-A used as near fields while the consumer is often now using better equipment at home and in the car has resulted the Auratone mostly falling out of favor. Its been a while since Ive seen a set, and I'm not sure that the manufacture is even around any more.
Still Just As Bad...
Nah, all modern cheap surround systems use little cubes pretty much the same as the Auratones.
They haven't died - just gone to peoples houses.
Eric.
Nah, all modern cheap surround systems use little cubes pretty much the same as the Auratones.
They haven't died - just gone to peoples houses.
Eric.
A good hard laugh to start the day,
Thank you so much. This is what friends are for.
The ironic thing here is that a few years back (3?) I almost bought a used set, not because I wanted them, but because they reportedly came from Frank Zappa'a "Joes Garage" studio.
I still figure that if or when the right set comes along, I'll likely pick them up. There's just something about them.
A bout 5 years ago I mistakenly bought a set of two-way Auratones. With the grills on they looked the same. Problem with tem was that they sounded way to good. I had to give them away and buy a set of the originals...
WHY?
Hi,
Some contoversy...
No, not all recordings sound like crap....most pop recordings?
Yes, I agree.
Some pop recordings are fine though (according to those standards) , note : it seems that quality costs money: Rolling Stones: great recordings...,Dire Straights: fine,
but sounds too digital to me.
There are good multi miked recs out there, assuming you accept that kind of compromise.
Can a pop or rockband be recorded by a simple stereo pair and still sell ?
Absolutely, yes, yes and yes.
Will it have as much impact without all these technical manips?
Yes.
Will this give us more artists and less technocrats?
I'd certainly hope so,😉
Hi,
Some contoversy...
No, not all recordings sound like crap....most pop recordings?
Yes, I agree.
Some pop recordings are fine though (according to those standards) , note : it seems that quality costs money: Rolling Stones: great recordings...,Dire Straights: fine,
but sounds too digital to me.
There are good multi miked recs out there, assuming you accept that kind of compromise.
Can a pop or rockband be recorded by a simple stereo pair and still sell ?
Absolutely, yes, yes and yes.
Will it have as much impact without all these technical manips?
Yes.
Will this give us more artists and less technocrats?
I'd certainly hope so,😉
Recordings... WHAT recordings
miked recordings are too expensive, acoustic & electrical instruments require musicians -- even more expensive😕
Why spend all that money when we can have synths do the sounds-making job -- AND record direct in glorious digital.
Of course, you'll need an "artist" (i.e. a voice of sorts), but hey -- nothing is free in this life!
OTOH, classical is a bummer: mikes, mastering; orchestra, conductor, virtuoso(i)... Not cost effective at all! No wonder there are so many reissues of the "new, remastered version using proprietary xyz technology" variety.
OK, Ok this is just another inconclusive comment on a foreclosed subject: forget superlative recordings of artistic merit, for now at least.
miked recordings are too expensive, acoustic & electrical instruments require musicians -- even more expensive😕
Why spend all that money when we can have synths do the sounds-making job -- AND record direct in glorious digital.
Of course, you'll need an "artist" (i.e. a voice of sorts), but hey -- nothing is free in this life!
OTOH, classical is a bummer: mikes, mastering; orchestra, conductor, virtuoso(i)... Not cost effective at all! No wonder there are so many reissues of the "new, remastered version using proprietary xyz technology" variety.
OK, Ok this is just another inconclusive comment on a foreclosed subject: forget superlative recordings of artistic merit, for now at least.
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