Baffles do tend to have lots of features, but they don't get around the basic physics of baffle dimensions and cancellation at low frequencies. Different x and y dimensions of course have different cancellation frequencies, but in a tall, skinny panel like an Acoustat, one dimension is going to dominate.
Regardless, for any practically sized dipole speaker, there is going to be low frequency cancellation and it needs to be dealt with one way or another. Linkwitz did it, Quad did it, and Acoustat did it in their own ways.
I've been working a lot recently with dipole baffles and their optimization and can assure you the roll-off is real, measurable, and hear-able.
I was keeping things simple in the hopes that the basics would be more digestable to those unfamiliar with the topics. If you throw in every detail, it's too much to handle for the uninitiated. Drinking from a fire hose is difficult.
Regardless, for any practically sized dipole speaker, there is going to be low frequency cancellation and it needs to be dealt with one way or another. Linkwitz did it, Quad did it, and Acoustat did it in their own ways.
I've been working a lot recently with dipole baffles and their optimization and can assure you the roll-off is real, measurable, and hear-able.
I was keeping things simple in the hopes that the basics would be more digestable to those unfamiliar with the topics. If you throw in every detail, it's too much to handle for the uninitiated. Drinking from a fire hose is difficult.
That's great: you can post your data for us.
I'd like to see a baffle, a few feet from a back wall, angled maybe 15-25-degrees as they usually are, and the mic where a listener might be sitting.
B.
Here's another example of something that obviously couldn't possibly work well if you did a picky analysis like with dipole radiation and yet nearly everybody on this forum does it: multiple subs (and that starts with 2*).
B.
* possibly two subs exactly equal distance to your two ears and playing a dual-mono signal might work OK
B.
* possibly two subs exactly equal distance to your two ears and playing a dual-mono signal might work OK
How did we get so far OT?
So far, my best summary is that it's not about actually being dynamic with crashing high SPLs. It's more about subjectively seeming to be dynamic.
And, despite first instinct being that 'fast and clean transients = dynamic', maybe it's the opposite: maybe the lesser room interaction with being dipole sounds subjectively less dynamic because the room doesn't get to contribute *it's* sound and reverbs and long tail very much, and we are subjectively respond to the cacophony of the room as 'a lot of sound'. Maybe the clean sound of a triangle played outdoors is more dynamic in our imagination than in reality?
cheers
So far, my best summary is that it's not about actually being dynamic with crashing high SPLs. It's more about subjectively seeming to be dynamic.
And, despite first instinct being that 'fast and clean transients = dynamic', maybe it's the opposite: maybe the lesser room interaction with being dipole sounds subjectively less dynamic because the room doesn't get to contribute *it's* sound and reverbs and long tail very much, and we are subjectively respond to the cacophony of the room as 'a lot of sound'. Maybe the clean sound of a triangle played outdoors is more dynamic in our imagination than in reality?
cheers
I have wondered the same, maybe a large panel suspended from the ceiling to save on floor space and omni directional.
I opened that Magnepan link and ran screaming. Sorry. It reminded me of how their website is long on anecdote and grandiose claims and (very) short on evidence. Not my style.
Hi all,
First I'd like to say that I haven't read through all of this thread so if I have missed someone else mentioning this please excuse me ;-)
That said I have for the last couple of days been listening to various stator types (meshes with different mesh counts/inch & wire sizes, rods of different diameters, rods rotated differently) in relation to building an electrostatic headphone.
The setup has been a modified DDDAC where the output signal was fed directly to an Onkyo DP600 dynamic headphone. The DP600 is nothing special among today's headphones but it is "quite ok" - and in this context the absolute sound quality of the headphone is not that important. I mainly use it as a "sound reference basis" where I know the headphone's own sound and then can listen to the difference the various meshes/rods have on this sound.
That is: I place the various meshes/rods as close as possible to the headphone's drivers (typically 1-2 mm distance) and then I listen to the difference between the driver uncovered by the mesh/rods and then covered by the mesh/rods in question (reasonably adjusting for sound volume). Mesh/rod diameters have all been 43 mms. They have not been stretched/tightened as in my experience this creates a clearly audible resonance. Open area percentage of the meshes/rods has been close to identical but for practical reasons not entirely the same.
And I have to admit that I have been profoundly surprised by the differences I have observed. Some of the meshes/rods virtually blur the music both spatially (less well-defined instruments, fragmented instruments) but - to my ears - most clearly also dynamically. It seems to be that having a solid stator structure is key to maintaining "natural dynamics" - microdetails, speed, tonal integrity, drive, impact, "wholeness" - of the sound. When the mesh/rod structure is not firm it is as if the music loses "life" so to speak.
Now, I am aware that I am listening to a headphone, whereas this thread addresses loudspeakers. However, I personally would reckon that - additional to the other phenomena that have been discussed here - physical strength/rigidity of the stator/stator structure is very important to achieving a natural dynamic response from an ESL/planar magnetic speaker.
My two cents.
Cheers,
Jesper
First I'd like to say that I haven't read through all of this thread so if I have missed someone else mentioning this please excuse me ;-)
That said I have for the last couple of days been listening to various stator types (meshes with different mesh counts/inch & wire sizes, rods of different diameters, rods rotated differently) in relation to building an electrostatic headphone.
The setup has been a modified DDDAC where the output signal was fed directly to an Onkyo DP600 dynamic headphone. The DP600 is nothing special among today's headphones but it is "quite ok" - and in this context the absolute sound quality of the headphone is not that important. I mainly use it as a "sound reference basis" where I know the headphone's own sound and then can listen to the difference the various meshes/rods have on this sound.
That is: I place the various meshes/rods as close as possible to the headphone's drivers (typically 1-2 mm distance) and then I listen to the difference between the driver uncovered by the mesh/rods and then covered by the mesh/rods in question (reasonably adjusting for sound volume). Mesh/rod diameters have all been 43 mms. They have not been stretched/tightened as in my experience this creates a clearly audible resonance. Open area percentage of the meshes/rods has been close to identical but for practical reasons not entirely the same.
And I have to admit that I have been profoundly surprised by the differences I have observed. Some of the meshes/rods virtually blur the music both spatially (less well-defined instruments, fragmented instruments) but - to my ears - most clearly also dynamically. It seems to be that having a solid stator structure is key to maintaining "natural dynamics" - microdetails, speed, tonal integrity, drive, impact, "wholeness" - of the sound. When the mesh/rod structure is not firm it is as if the music loses "life" so to speak.
Now, I am aware that I am listening to a headphone, whereas this thread addresses loudspeakers. However, I personally would reckon that - additional to the other phenomena that have been discussed here - physical strength/rigidity of the stator/stator structure is very important to achieving a natural dynamic response from an ESL/planar magnetic speaker.
My two cents.
Cheers,
Jesper
I would agree, however rigidity is not necessarily dependent on the stator itself. The louvered structure supporting the wire stators on the Acoustats results in a superior performance ime.
How important is being rigid when there is a foam strip each side of the Mylar along the edges?