Not quite, Bl=Bl the size of the vc is only half the equation, the flux density is the other half. Motor strength determines efficiency, not control, for subs there is not alot of high frequency detail like in a mid so rapid direction changes are not there, and the level of control needed is reduced. Speakers respond to sinusiodal inputs,music is combinations of different frequencies of course. Lets look at a signal through a woofer, the woofer accelerates outward towards xmax, at some point the acceleration goes to zero and then negative, now the velocity is going to zero and reaches it at a phase of 90 degrees. Then the current switches direction and starts to reverse the direction of the woofer. If the frequency is say 40hz then the woofer will oscillate 40 times per second, period. It doesn't matter how big and heavy it is, what will be affected by mass and motor strength is the amplitude of the motion, not the "control" As the signal amplitude levels off (before the 90 degree point) the velocity reduces, and the suspension and airload on the driver will begin slowing it down.
If the motor was strong enough to get the cone moving, then it is strong enough to stop it! Especially with the restoring force of the suspension.
IMHO, this is not an accurate analogy, first off like stated above speakers respond to sine waves, if the motor is weak then the output will be weak, but the signal will still be produced ie. 40hz is still 40hz.
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Just a larger voice coil? larger coil needs a stronger magnet to maintain the "B" in the Bl due to the larger area of the coil.
This might be backwards, heres why I say that. Acoustical Power (Pa) is approximately velocity*area (http://www.linkwitzlab.com/faq.htm#Q21) So if you have two woofers, one 15" Pa=(v1*a1) and one 18" Pa=(v2*a2) both generating the same Pa: v1*a1=v2*a2, a1 is smaller than a2, so v1 must be larger than v2, the 15" has to move faster, work harder.
So Iron-Wizard are you now saying that smaller vc's are better for linearity???? And yet you asked me why someone would want a smaller vc!
Where are you getting this thinner winding/ more sensitivity bit, Im curious? I have never heard of this relationship before.
It disturbs me a little bit that you are doing all of this talking about motor strength and vc design and you dont even know what is meant by uniform flux, ...BL be low??? NO, it will be constant from one end of the gap to the other. It is virtually impossible to get perfectly uniform flux density, it only gets harder as you try and increase excursion.
This made me chuckle, chops, probably not what you meant to say but Im going to pick on you anyway
They're talking about max power and top speed runs and 0-60, all of which are done at full throttle, so reserve power is zero for any engine size Forgive me...
While im at it wouldnt the v8 with the "low-end" torque be more outside of its torque range than a high rpm 4-banger at high rpm's.
nunayafb said:
Not really, a larger diameter coil with a smaller diameter spider damper is more linear, the damper is smaller in relation to the chassis seat for the damper, make sense? a bigger diameter damper on a small coil doing large travel will square a fair bit.
Where are you getting this thinner winding/ more sensitivity bit, Im curious? I have never heard of this relationship before.[/QUOTE]
I have re coned countless numbers of woofers in my life time and i noticed that coils with thinner windings, these have more turns and very tight gaps, those have sensitivity in the high 96+ and even 100db per watt.
It disturbs me a little bit that you are doing all of this talking about motor strength and vc design and you dont even know what is meant by uniform flux, ...BL be low??? NO, it will be constant from one end of the gap to the other. It is virtually impossible to get perfectly uniform flux density. [/QUOTE]
Dont be disturbed, B is the strength in Tesla in the gap right? a longer motor will have a lower H as the field is longer in the gap?
This is what i was thinking H = mmf / l
Why is it impossible to get have uniform flux density?
Also, as to the "higher hp will give you higher mph" is not true... At least not all the time.
Two of my friends have 2005 Dodge Ram quad cab dually pickups. Both of these guys are in their mid to late 40's and have money to blow on anything.
Anyway, one of them (Simon) has the factory 5.9L Inline-6 Cummings turbo diesel (dynoed) pumping out 462hp and 1002 lb-ft of torque with a stand-alone (laptop programmable) engine management system, a modified stock turbo, intake and a full stainless exhaust system.
The other guy (Allen) has the same exact truck except that he swapped out the Cummings turbo diesel for a bone-stock 8.3L V10 out of a rear-ended 2004 Viper. He had custom stainless headers, intake and exhaust made, also along with a stand-alone engine management system. His setup has been dynoed at 558hp and 533 lb-ft of torque.
Both trucks have the stock 6-speed manual transmission and 3.73 diff. They are both 2-wheel drive.
The Cummings is running low 13's in the 1/4 mile while the V10 is running mid 15's.
Top speed of the Cummings is around 145mph so far, the V10 is around 130mph.
So, there it is.
Two of my friends have 2005 Dodge Ram quad cab dually pickups. Both of these guys are in their mid to late 40's and have money to blow on anything.
Anyway, one of them (Simon) has the factory 5.9L Inline-6 Cummings turbo diesel (dynoed) pumping out 462hp and 1002 lb-ft of torque with a stand-alone (laptop programmable) engine management system, a modified stock turbo, intake and a full stainless exhaust system.
The other guy (Allen) has the same exact truck except that he swapped out the Cummings turbo diesel for a bone-stock 8.3L V10 out of a rear-ended 2004 Viper. He had custom stainless headers, intake and exhaust made, also along with a stand-alone engine management system. His setup has been dynoed at 558hp and 533 lb-ft of torque.
Both trucks have the stock 6-speed manual transmission and 3.73 diff. They are both 2-wheel drive.
The Cummings is running low 13's in the 1/4 mile while the V10 is running mid 15's.
Top speed of the Cummings is around 145mph so far, the V10 is around 130mph.
So, there it is.
Top speed is NOT soley dependant on horsepower. Aerodynamics, and other friction, plays the biggest role, but power and gear ratios are also crucial. For acceleration you need both power and torque, but torque is what gets you off the line faster and enables a broader range of RPMs for every gear
We're talking about speakers here where the point is acceleration only. The force which the voice coil provides is linear. There is no torque involved. Also we are trying to have the MOST air friction as possible preventing the cone from moving. Larger size cones do this more effectively.
This just sounds wrong, which leads me to believe Im not understanding what specifically you are referring to, do you have any pitctures, or links to illustrate what you mean?
Ahhh, I see what your thinking, with thinner windings you can get more turns (more L) which does increase sensitivity. I was looking at it from the other direction, the gauge itself has no effect on sensitivity except for the obvious- you can fit more turns in the gap.
Not saying impossible, just close to it, download a program called femm, and open the speaker motor example and look at how "chaotic" the flux is everywhere. You can make countless changes and still have varying flux. click anywhere and everywhere in the circuit and you can read |B|.
BassAwdyO said:
I know all that BassAwdyO, but we were using the same body shell with the same transmission to do comparisons. In that case, aerodynamics, friction, gear ratios are the same.
BTW, it's torque at the wheels that's important like I said. On the Mustang, you might drop the clutch at 3000 rpm, when in the S2000 you'll drop the clutch at 5000 rpm, giving you both around 2500 rpm to go before the cutoff.
Everyone talks about torque and horsepower, which is better and all. It's a non-issue, horsepower = torque x rpm / constant.
I'll need to explain again hehe, look at my next post.
Originally posted by Iron-Wizard
18 inch woofers cost more to make and have very little demand, thats what i think.
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here's where a bunch of 18" woofers went
http://www.basspig.com
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these two are only one photo, speakers
(are they really speakers when they get this big?)
are to the Lady's right...
http://www11.plala.or.jp/se_ke5583/DIATONE/diatonesp/d-80.html
http://www11.plala.or.jp/se_ke5583/DIATONE/diatonesp/d-160.html
18 inch woofers cost more to make and have very little demand, thats what i think.
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here's where a bunch of 18" woofers went
http://www.basspig.com
````````````````````````````````````
these two are only one photo, speakers
(are they really speakers when they get this big?)
are to the Lady's right...
http://www11.plala.or.jp/se_ke5583/DIATONE/diatonesp/d-80.html
http://www11.plala.or.jp/se_ke5583/DIATONE/diatonesp/d-160.html
BassAwdyO said:
The cone material has an affect on friction right? i noticed cones used by a French company had a felt velvet texture and they sounded so smooth, like refined sugar not the HFCS of today.
I know shinny plastic cones flap in free so maybe this is because there is less air friction compared to a good old paper cone with the pressed surface? I also noticed that some time ago they started to leave the CNC grooves from the cutting tip on the master mould which you can just see on the plastic cones of today, this must help friction, just an idea, anybody know for sure?
nunayafb said:
I have only had this PC for a few month and i have only been using the net for 5 weeks, when I will figure out how to load pictures I will show you a spider damper square when pushed from the centre, i also noticed that some dampers square more than others and the only difference is the amount of resin used on the damper and the type of cotton or cloth used.
download a program called femm"chaotic" the flux is everywhere. You can make countless changes and still have varying flux.?[/QUOTE]
That sounds amazing, Is this program free? how big is it on disc?
Is this flux display a real representation in lines/particals or some kind of theoretical mathematical model?
This is really wonderful that i can talk to people about loudspeakers.
I work with cars all day and every day for the last 20 years and it gets me down some times, my hands always hurt and i can never get the oil and dirt out my finger nails.
I will say that even the modern and most expensive ICE are not very advanced or good at converting thermal energy into kinetic force and have very poor efficiency, thermodynamics is not something i know much about but you guys should be asking for higher efficiency engines, we should all be asking for higher efficiency drive units, 1% power converted into sound is poor.
The economy/conservation of energy will be a hugh part of our future, we really are the dinosaurs in terms of consumption.
chops said:
I said TOP SPEED, TOP SPEED = TOP SPEED, not quarter mile trap speed. Give a few miles of road, then the Viper powered Ram will win, 100% sure if the dynoed results are ok. You can't beat physics on this. It's a FACT, same truck, same trans, ~same weight, higher hp rating will go faster 100% of the time.
Why the truck won in the race? It's turbocharged, so like I said here and I'll quote myself :
Turbocharged means a flatter torque curve, which in fact will give a more linear horsepower curve. Also, the six-speed is probably made for the diesel engine, so the diesel is more into its powerband than the viper engine when you upshift.
The Viper truck got headers and such, probably a peaky torque curve. The peaky curve will give a peaky horsepower curve. If you can get the numbers at what rpm max torque and max hp is achieved for both engines I could make you a graph to explain further.
Also, a very important thing, they use the same tires? They often swap vehicules to check if it's not because they are poor drag drivers?
Originally posted by DragonMaster
That's small!
Is it me or Mitsubishi always make the biggest everything?
They were the first ones with 52" CRTs(And now that Mitsubishi and hitachi are almost the same company, Hitachi now has big slim CRT TVs).
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made the first 35" crts
supertankers too...
havent found much info on the web for the large woofers yet....
That's small!
Is it me or Mitsubishi always make the biggest everything?
They were the first ones with 52" CRTs(And now that Mitsubishi and hitachi are almost the same company, Hitachi now has big slim CRT TVs).
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made the first 35" crts
supertankers too...
havent found much info on the web for the large woofers yet....
simon5 said:
I am NOT talking about trap speeds, I'm talking about going full-out on a 5 mile straight strip of highway. (at around 3am I might add)
HP has nothing to do with MAX top speed. I don't care if you claim it as physics or not. The V10 simply does NOT have the torque on the top end to push that truck to "terminal velocity" when the front end of the truck has the aerodynamics of a brick wall. The V10 runs out of power well below its redline trying to move 7000 lbs of steel shaped like a brick wall down the tarmac.
The Cummings on the other hand has literally loads of torque, 1002 lb-ft to be exact, and has no problems pushing this truck to a much HIGHER top speed. I'm sorry. I'm not trying to argue, but you're wrong.
These ARE accurate speeds because I was chasing the both of them in Simon's 1974 Porsche 911 powered by a 600hp 13B Mazda rotary which can do in access of 200+ mph. (my Miata runs out of gear at 130mph, hence why I used the 911)
Yes, the Viper truck has "headers and such", but I can assure you that the power is NOT peaky. We have gone through 3 pairs of headers and spent many hours on the dyno and back roads tuning the heck out it with the engine management system. Like I said before, these guys have money to burn. They are NOT going to skimp out and take short cuts on their vehicles.
The Viper truck's torque curve is virtually flat from 2000 - 5000rpm, then drops 100 lb-ft at 5500rpm. The Cummings (with modified turbo) comes up on full boost and torque at 1400rpm and pretty much stays there till redline. So to answer your question, YES, the dyno #'s are correct.
"Poor drag drivers"?!?! Are you serious?! I mean, you would have to be totally dead not to be able to beat the Viper truck with the Cummings. Even if I was driving the Viper truck, my mother would be able to beat me in the Cummings truck! And she hasn't driven a manual in years!
And yes, the tires are the same diameter. The only difference being that Simon is running super huge street slicks on the Cummings (2 tires in the rear) while Allen is still running the dually setup.
Just a little note, the Viper truck hits a MAX top speed of 130mph in 5th gear. Once you put it into 6th, it can't go much over 120mph due to the lack of TORQUE. The Cummings on the other hand hits 145mph IN 6th gear.
And just for fun, I have had the Porsche up to 220mph with about 2000 rpm still left to go!
1st, 6.29
2nd, 3.48
3rd, 2.10
4th, 1.38
5th, 1.00
6th, 0.79
with 3.73 final ratio you said?
Total ratio for 5th : 3.73
Total ratio for 6th : 2.95
What are the tires? I'll assume LT265/70R17.
I'll assume the peak HP is achieved around 5000 rpm.
The 6th gear is too tall, meant to accelerate up to 185 mph with a 6000 rpm redline.
Your friend would need a 4.10 final gear ratio, with this he would easily beat the diesel guy. The 6th speed would be in the powerband now.
BTW, I'm about 100% sure they doesn't have exactly the same transmission or final gear ratio. Dodge 6 speed transmission will top out at ~120 mph with a 3.73 final gear ratio if the diesel engine redline is at 4000 rpm (I don't know where's the redline).
That or they are using taller tires.
2nd, 3.48
3rd, 2.10
4th, 1.38
5th, 1.00
6th, 0.79
with 3.73 final ratio you said?
Total ratio for 5th : 3.73
Total ratio for 6th : 2.95
What are the tires? I'll assume LT265/70R17.
I'll assume the peak HP is achieved around 5000 rpm.
The 6th gear is too tall, meant to accelerate up to 185 mph with a 6000 rpm redline.
Your friend would need a 4.10 final gear ratio, with this he would easily beat the diesel guy. The 6th speed would be in the powerband now.
BTW, I'm about 100% sure they doesn't have exactly the same transmission or final gear ratio. Dodge 6 speed transmission will top out at ~120 mph with a 3.73 final gear ratio if the diesel engine redline is at 4000 rpm (I don't know where's the redline).
That or they are using taller tires.
Look, I know what these trucks can do. I've seen it with my own two eyes. I don't know why they do what they do, but they just do.
I'm not going to get into a freaking debate over it. I'm not an idiot.
And like I said, BOTH TRUCKS ARE IDENTICAL INSIDE AND OUT, trans, rearend, etc, etc..., except for the motors. That's it! You can run your numbers all day long. It's not going to change the fact that the Cummings is running faster than the V10.
Also, I think you keep foregetting that these trucks are running aftermarket programmable engine management systems, so niether egine has a speed governor and the rev limiter has been bumped up.
I have riden and driven both of these trucks plenty of times, doing both dyno runs and test pulls on the street and track. The V10 redlines in 5th gear at 130mph and does NOT (cannot) redline in 6th gear and can only do a little over 120mph. It does NOT have the BALLS! Period.
I KNOW torque isn't everything, but it's a good part of it, and it's obviously playing a major roll here with these two trucks.
And if you are implying that I'm lying about all of this and/or making it all up, then the heck with you.
I'm not going to get into a freaking debate over it. I'm not an idiot.
And like I said, BOTH TRUCKS ARE IDENTICAL INSIDE AND OUT, trans, rearend, etc, etc..., except for the motors. That's it! You can run your numbers all day long. It's not going to change the fact that the Cummings is running faster than the V10.
Also, I think you keep foregetting that these trucks are running aftermarket programmable engine management systems, so niether egine has a speed governor and the rev limiter has been bumped up.
I have riden and driven both of these trucks plenty of times, doing both dyno runs and test pulls on the street and track. The V10 redlines in 5th gear at 130mph and does NOT (cannot) redline in 6th gear and can only do a little over 120mph. It does NOT have the BALLS! Period.
I KNOW torque isn't everything, but it's a good part of it, and it's obviously playing a major roll here with these two trucks.
And if you are implying that I'm lying about all of this and/or making it all up, then the heck with you.
Originally posted by pinkmouse
Stick to the topic please and leave the car stuff out.
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might use an escort to 'everything else'
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10f20 !- http://img.shop-pro.jp/PA01000/299/product/6416.jpg
gained in translation-
it is-
it returns-
Stick to the topic please and leave the car stuff out.
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might use an escort to 'everything else'
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10f20 !- http://img.shop-pro.jp/PA01000/299/product/6416.jpg
gained in translation-
it is-
it returns-
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