Quite honestly I believe a "punch in the chest" while listening to speakers is immediately followed by lifelong tinitus. I'd prefer the punch of a tactile transducer.
Well, what I describe as a "kick" is merely a quick way of describing the "feeling" that music gives you, even at reasonable levels, which you just don't get with headphones. I find it makes headphone listening always feel "lacking" even when listening at reasonable levels such as I usually do, 90-100 db or so.
That's actually the opposite of my experience, since building my dipoles I've been more at the performance location than having the performance in my room.
Also, decent recordings bring it into the room, good recordings bring me to the performance and as far as I can tell it's because of more spatial information in the recording.
Yeah, I'd agree, if it's recorded "dead" then it just kinda lands in your room, having spacial information helps. I've got a few Chesky issues that like to defy room boundaries.
Listening at 90-100 dB is reasonable to you? You're hearing is seriously in danger.
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Yipe, I hope it's not for more than a few minutes because that's asking for damage. Sometimes I'd like to crank it open too but if it's for too long I do notice the effects. The maximum for a workplace (factory) is 80 dB if I remember correctly to prevent permanent damage.
Even so, I know about the kick because it doesn't need to be that loud to experience it. Having 12 30 cm/12" woofers seems to create a wavefront that can be felt even at low levels. 🙂
A guesstimate, I suppose. Maybe I should break out the SPL meter and check because it's certainly not enough to be uncomfortable. Usually just loud enough so that in order to speak to someone you'd have to talk pretty loudly.
I don't have any tinnitus.
A weighting or C? lol.
Lemme find a good song to play good n' loud.
Ok, I exaggerated a little bit, more like 80-90 rather than 90-100.
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Next time I mix, I'll do some of this so people can hear. That way there is no finger pointing, grand standing, etc... type of junk going on. This will help:
http://www.wseas.us/e-library/confe...?dfa51120?3e245730?dfa51120?3e245730?dfa51120
Dan
Ok, so you fellas have me worried a little bit about this whole SPL thing. Perhaps my understanding is a little off, so I'm doing a few more tests. I don't mean to derail the thread, but I wanna clear this up. I'm doing a few listening tests at what I consider to be "loud but reasonable" with some tracks I like. All measurements are A weighted with the meter sitting on my coffee table directly in front of me.
Bela Fleck and the Flecktones - Shocktime - Ranges from 79-85db.
Buckethead - Brewer in the Air - Hovered around 89 db. (super compressed)
Coldplay - Don't Panic - Hovered around 82db, some guitar parts hit 86.
Eric Clapton - Lay Down Sally (live) - Hovered around 85, some crowd cheers 87.
Am I killing myself? I think I exaggerated a little before, but I'd just like to make sure that these numbers don't seem unreasonable to you guys.
Bela Fleck and the Flecktones - Shocktime - Ranges from 79-85db.
Buckethead - Brewer in the Air - Hovered around 89 db. (super compressed)
Coldplay - Don't Panic - Hovered around 82db, some guitar parts hit 86.
Eric Clapton - Lay Down Sally (live) - Hovered around 85, some crowd cheers 87.
Am I killing myself? I think I exaggerated a little before, but I'd just like to make sure that these numbers don't seem unreasonable to you guys.
They don't seem out of hand, at your ear the levels may be a couple dB lower than what you noted, depending on how close your coffe table is to your speakers, remember direct sound drops in level 6.02 dB per doubling of distance.
I like to mix (and listen) below the OSHA 8 hour guidelines, which would be 90 DBA slow.
OSHA (1998)
dBA Slow
90 for 8 hours
92 for 6 hours
95 for 4 hours
97 for 3 hours
100 for 2 hours
102 for 1.5 hours
105 for 1 hour
110 for 1/2 hour
115 for 1/4 hour
The OSHA levels, if exceeded, statistically cause hearing loss.
The NIOSH standards are more stringent, I'd use them for industrial noise (and industrial music LOL):
NIOSH (1998)
dBA Slow
85 for 8 hours
90 for 2.5 hours
95 for 47 minutes
100 for 15 minutes
To be equivalent to hearing 90 dB at 4000 HZ takes 120 dB at 30 HZ, around the low “B” of a five string bass guitar.
With certain types of music, you can actually have a mix that will show 120 dBC but only 90 dBA.
I still remember providing sound for a gig with Prince in a small Minneapolis venue, Cubby (Rob Colby) was mixing and we could converse at arms length at FOH without yelling, yet some of the low stuff would bank the SPL meter off scale on the 120 dB setting.
Another earlier gig with the same artist and a different engineer required me to put in earplugs, the snare was hitting over 120 dB, “conversation” with the engineer required yelling about 4 inches from his ear to ask him to turn it down as he was clipping the hi mid amps(1200-5K), in spite of the limiters!
The type of “typical” music I mix will show peaks well above 100 dBC, while still averaging well below 90 dBA slow.
The levels required to damage hearing at very low frequencies are extreme, generally beyond the capability of any present transducers that could be fit in a room. Astronauts are subjected to over 160 dB of VLF during takeoff with no apparent hearing loss, there are no loudspeakers approaching that level at VLF.
Art Welter
Thanks Art. I guess it was the "slow" that was confusing me. When I stated that it was typical for loud music to be 90-100 db I guess the mis communication was that it's not the same thing if your spl meter taps the mid-ninety mark on an aggressive snare drum hit than it is to listen to white noise at the same volume.
I guess I'm at ease now. I'd hate to celebrate my 33rd birthday this year with a hearing aid.
I guess I'm at ease now. I'd hate to celebrate my 33rd birthday this year with a hearing aid.
I once measured my screamingly crying son when he was one or two. That was done by Behringer DEQ2496 built-in meter and EMC8000 without calibration. I remember that was 92dB with the mic just in front of his mouth, barely touching.
Very loud I must say. I couldn't resist covering one of my ear near him during the measuring. I had to use one hand for holding the mic, so I couldn't cover both.
More earlier when I was in millitary service, it was in an airport. Once in a drill, we were very near the runway where there was a fighter jet waiting for take-off. When he pushed the throttle, that sheer SPL nearly bent my knees. That should be well over 100.
Very loud I must say. I couldn't resist covering one of my ear near him during the measuring. I had to use one hand for holding the mic, so I couldn't cover both.
More earlier when I was in millitary service, it was in an airport. Once in a drill, we were very near the runway where there was a fighter jet waiting for take-off. When he pushed the throttle, that sheer SPL nearly bent my knees. That should be well over 100.
Thanks.
I'd like to add that the jet was waiting there for quite a while (I don't remember it was 5 or 10 min, but it felt pretty long under that SPL). It's strange because the runway was not busy at all, and no other planes in the visible range. It was just staying there emitting huge noise. I thought it would be going in seconds, didn't know it was going to stay that long. It was so loud that I was very fidgety already.
Finally its front landing gear stretched, to be a slightly facing up stance. And then the engines started howling even louder. That's totally beyond me. I thought it was already in the loudest condition which was almost unbearable, but at this moment it turned out unimaginably louder and louder. An unstoppable huge crescendo rushed and crushed along. In seconds after it reached the peak, it's gone. Thankfully.
BTW, it was only a very old (and thin sounded) F5E, with 2 tiny engines. I don't remember seeing any smaller one in any other fighters. So, thankfully that was not a Mirage 2000 or F16. I left before they came. They sound much more 'macho' then F5 in the sky. I don't want to be close to them.
I'd like to add that the jet was waiting there for quite a while (I don't remember it was 5 or 10 min, but it felt pretty long under that SPL). It's strange because the runway was not busy at all, and no other planes in the visible range. It was just staying there emitting huge noise. I thought it would be going in seconds, didn't know it was going to stay that long. It was so loud that I was very fidgety already.
Finally its front landing gear stretched, to be a slightly facing up stance. And then the engines started howling even louder. That's totally beyond me. I thought it was already in the loudest condition which was almost unbearable, but at this moment it turned out unimaginably louder and louder. An unstoppable huge crescendo rushed and crushed along. In seconds after it reached the peak, it's gone. Thankfully.
BTW, it was only a very old (and thin sounded) F5E, with 2 tiny engines. I don't remember seeing any smaller one in any other fighters. So, thankfully that was not a Mirage 2000 or F16. I left before they came. They sound much more 'macho' then F5 in the sky. I don't want to be close to them.
Hi Dan,
I just quickly glanced at the paper. I'm not sure the methodology used is correct as a recording is captured by microphones and listened to in the control room through loudspeakers.
We talked about face-to-face tweeters, or dome-to-diffusor arrangement for omni.
How about back-to-back (small) tweeters for bipole? If small enough, say 3/4" or newer 1/2" domes wih small neo magnet, the combo should be small enough to be very close to omni, or at least omni up to a high enough frequency.
Any thoughts? 😀
How about back-to-back (small) tweeters for bipole? If small enough, say 3/4" or newer 1/2" domes wih small neo magnet, the combo should be small enough to be very close to omni, or at least omni up to a high enough frequency.
Any thoughts? 😀