I was listening to some of my favorite test tracks and this thought crossed by mind. It is well known that if the fundamental frequency is missing, but the remainder of the harmonic structure is intact, the brain will reconstruct the missing fundamental and the listener will "hear" the correct frequency. Organ players have known for centuries that if you play C and G in the lowest octave, the listener will "hear" C one octave below. So...
My music player has a third-party plug-in of a spectrum analyser that is based of the actual notes rather than raw frequencies. Very nice.
The first example is a string bass playing the bottom string open and plucked. This is from a track off of the Chesky "Ultimate Demonstration Disc". The frequency in the little white box if you can read it is 41.20Hz. The fundamental is nearly 20dB below the first overtone at 82.4Hz. This is, of course the open E-string, and a perfect example of why string players avoid open strings when possible. However, the bottom line here is that even small speakers can convincingly produce very low notes. (Some one elsewhere posted a spectrum on a 4-string bass guitar. The fundamental was only down 6dB!)
The next example is from the E. Power Biggs recording of the Bach "Toccata and Fugue in d", the bottom on the opening flourish. The frequency is 38.7Hz. Now here, the fundamental is about 5dB down, and the harmonic is doubled with another pipe. This is going to be a bit harder for a small speaker to produce convincingly, and for sure you will not feel the note.
The last example is why you really need a good sub to reproduce a good recording. The bottom note at 55Hz is not played by any instrument. It is a room resonance in the concert hall and not harmonically related to the music. The real bottom note is G2 and 98Hz, a bassoon, BTW. Resonances like this are always present in concert hall recordings, as apposed to multitrack studio recordings.
Bob
My music player has a third-party plug-in of a spectrum analyser that is based of the actual notes rather than raw frequencies. Very nice.
The first example is a string bass playing the bottom string open and plucked. This is from a track off of the Chesky "Ultimate Demonstration Disc". The frequency in the little white box if you can read it is 41.20Hz. The fundamental is nearly 20dB below the first overtone at 82.4Hz. This is, of course the open E-string, and a perfect example of why string players avoid open strings when possible. However, the bottom line here is that even small speakers can convincingly produce very low notes. (Some one elsewhere posted a spectrum on a 4-string bass guitar. The fundamental was only down 6dB!)
The next example is from the E. Power Biggs recording of the Bach "Toccata and Fugue in d", the bottom on the opening flourish. The frequency is 38.7Hz. Now here, the fundamental is about 5dB down, and the harmonic is doubled with another pipe. This is going to be a bit harder for a small speaker to produce convincingly, and for sure you will not feel the note.
The last example is why you really need a good sub to reproduce a good recording. The bottom note at 55Hz is not played by any instrument. It is a room resonance in the concert hall and not harmonically related to the music. The real bottom note is G2 and 98Hz, a bassoon, BTW. Resonances like this are always present in concert hall recordings, as apposed to multitrack studio recordings.
Bob
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Hi Bob,
Some very useful (and eye-opening) info Bob. I find that the bass drum or orchestral drums really distinguish bass capability. For instance a single Eikona in a 11L reflex won't produce it right but put 2 in a mass loaded transmission line and they certainly will. I get the -6db cut-off point of 26 Hz with Eikona2 (and there is loads of headroom)! Still can't quite believe what 2 4"'s will do in the right cabinet. I would recommend the full 6db baffle-step compensation, however - this makes a considerable difference. Tried the same thing with Alpair but they just can't cope.
I used to run a subwoofer - the pro50 but much prefer the system without it now and have sold it on.
KJW
Some very useful (and eye-opening) info Bob. I find that the bass drum or orchestral drums really distinguish bass capability. For instance a single Eikona in a 11L reflex won't produce it right but put 2 in a mass loaded transmission line and they certainly will. I get the -6db cut-off point of 26 Hz with Eikona2 (and there is loads of headroom)! Still can't quite believe what 2 4"'s will do in the right cabinet. I would recommend the full 6db baffle-step compensation, however - this makes a considerable difference. Tried the same thing with Alpair but they just can't cope.
I used to run a subwoofer - the pro50 but much prefer the system without it now and have sold it on.
KJW
Nice indeed, I'm about to build a few designs with small vifas so all input is most welcome🙂
But, will I hear tones below what my speakers can produce from works I never listened to before? Maybe it is memory filling in what is missing?
Regards
But, will I hear tones below what my speakers can produce from works I never listened to before? Maybe it is memory filling in what is missing?
Regards
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A 3.5 inch driver can give good bass if it is high Qts and in the right cabinet, and not played too loudly. Turbon, you may be interested to find that the Vifa TC9FD will make clean 50 Hz bass in a dual chamber reflex.
Here is a measurement at typical near field listening levels with not too shabby distortion.
Here is a measurement at typical near field listening levels with not too shabby distortion.
A 3" driver reproducing "bass" is more likely just producing extreme distortion than anything. I would not call that "good". Perhaps this was the point of your post?
Exceptions include post #4, but I assume this is at low SPL (67dB?). Such a small driver only has so much displacement capability...
Exceptions include post #4, but I assume this is at low SPL (67dB?). Such a small driver only has so much displacement capability...
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That's why I said at not too loud of a volume. Data in post 4 shows circa -35dB distortion at 50 Hz, which I don't think anyone would call extreme distortion. Even when played at 80 dB, the distortion is not bad yet.
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Um, the data in post #4 shows 65dB at 50Hz... That is pretty darn "quiet"... and that is for "near field" according to the info. Do you listen in this "near field" position?
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They are computer speakers so they are maybe 3 ft away. The measurement was made at listening position with speakers on the desk next to monitor. Increasing to low to mid 70 dB output the distortion goes up by equivalent amount. So 70dB is about -30dB still.
I think Bob is absolutely correct that our brains can fill in the low notes based on the upper harmonics. Having said that, bigger drivers offer a more realistic, higher fidelity sound IMO. And the SPL capable that it is, the more realistic and higher fidelity it is, IMO.
If a 3" driver in a box with an F3 of 60hz is playing at 70db (90db peaks) it's going to sound pretty good. Even "full range". But if a 12" driver with an F3 of 30hz playing at 75db (95 or even 105db peaks) is listen comparitively, the larger driver is going to sound much better. This assumes the 12" can play the mid and high frequencies with equivelent fidelity, which we know is most often not the case. Which is why if only using 1 driver, then I end up prefering the smaller drivers (4" seems to be the best all around for me).
If a 3" driver in a box with an F3 of 60hz is playing at 70db (90db peaks) it's going to sound pretty good. Even "full range". But if a 12" driver with an F3 of 30hz playing at 75db (95 or even 105db peaks) is listen comparitively, the larger driver is going to sound much better. This assumes the 12" can play the mid and high frequencies with equivelent fidelity, which we know is most often not the case. Which is why if only using 1 driver, then I end up prefering the smaller drivers (4" seems to be the best all around for me).
Do you really want loud bass?
I have heard some pretty loud bass in my time - sometimes standing close to PA speakers at concerts, but have never came back feeling it was a 'musical' experience. For a start, over a comfortable volume the human ear tenses up and chops off the volume so you are 'feeling' the bass (and distortion) more than anything. This is detracting from the music. I want my bass in balance; and certainly below a volume that the ear starts to attenuate it and the room start s to vibrate, so there is some arguement for limiting bass volume levels.
How does a 'small' driver do 'bass' - simple; effieciency is sacrificed (lower power output for power input). You are relying on cabinet loading rather than excursion, so you are not necessary excursion limited, but power limited (the system tries to dissipitae too much power and overheats).
Then ther are some disadvantages of those large (but efficient) woofers - the size of cabinet and associated panel resonances, driver mass (lack of transient response and distortions, very limited bandwith, reduced coherence etc.
At the end of the day it's how much you value finesse and musicality over 'raw grunt', and achieving a balance that does it for you. My balance is full-range drivers all the way (although in carefully designed configurations), desiging for 'louder bass' is a never ending and rather pointless goal that I gave up in long ago in my teens in favour of that thoroughly musical experience.
I have heard some pretty loud bass in my time - sometimes standing close to PA speakers at concerts, but have never came back feeling it was a 'musical' experience. For a start, over a comfortable volume the human ear tenses up and chops off the volume so you are 'feeling' the bass (and distortion) more than anything. This is detracting from the music. I want my bass in balance; and certainly below a volume that the ear starts to attenuate it and the room start s to vibrate, so there is some arguement for limiting bass volume levels.
How does a 'small' driver do 'bass' - simple; effieciency is sacrificed (lower power output for power input). You are relying on cabinet loading rather than excursion, so you are not necessary excursion limited, but power limited (the system tries to dissipitae too much power and overheats).
Then ther are some disadvantages of those large (but efficient) woofers - the size of cabinet and associated panel resonances, driver mass (lack of transient response and distortions, very limited bandwith, reduced coherence etc.
At the end of the day it's how much you value finesse and musicality over 'raw grunt', and achieving a balance that does it for you. My balance is full-range drivers all the way (although in carefully designed configurations), desiging for 'louder bass' is a never ending and rather pointless goal that I gave up in long ago in my teens in favour of that thoroughly musical experience.
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Kevin, I didn't mean car audio bass. 75db isn't all that loud. But for dynamic (musical) bass, you need them to be big. It's that effortless/effecient bass that sounds good and low distortion. The little drivers are trying to hard. So I'd suggest that larger drivers have the edge in terms of "finesse" and "musicality" as you would like in a driver. Little drivers sound like they're trying way to hard.
Ha! Fair enough 😛
Ha! Fair enough 😛
EL70s at Bernie's place a couple of weekends ago didn't seemed to be strained, but then we were only listening, not measuring them. Approx 10ft?, mid 80s SPL would be my guess, and not just chicks and guitars - SMV (Stanley Clarke, Marcus Miller, Victor Wooten - "WOW" was right) .
They probably didn't sound strained. But a 4" has a lot more Sd than a 3". And that driver can really maximize a cab tuning and has a lot more xmax than a typical 4" full ranger. Packs a punch like a 5 or even a 6" driver. EL70 is certainly the exception. But even that over-achiever has let me down with big bass transients. Thankfully far and few between.
Nice choice of bass players to listen to 😀
Nice choice of bass players to listen to 😀
Put those little drivers in Cornu's and prepare to feel the bass in your nether regions.
Rock on brothers, rock on!
Rock on brothers, rock on!
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