I understand 😉 But only rich people can afford new equipements in Europe and US. It is a little easier because we still have some industry ( Focal, Audax, Kartesian, Triangle etc.), but things become worse in Europe, some political decisions too on Energy and Ecology destroy our industrial knowledge.
In my case I am a designer and I make things myself. A lot of people on this forum are diyers. Costs are drastly reduce.
Honestly you own high end speakers, try to repair them with genuine parts. I think it will be less expensive. You can try to find used replacements parts on eBay or something like.
In my case I am a designer and I make things myself. A lot of people on this forum are diyers. Costs are drastly reduce.
Honestly you own high end speakers, try to repair them with genuine parts. I think it will be less expensive. You can try to find used replacements parts on eBay or something like.
What's wrong with them? From the posted picture, they look to be in good shape to me.
Why don't you try to change the tuning of your speaker in a direction that makes them better useable to you? The Seas woofer are not the problem, the way they are tuned in the cabinet makes them perform as they do.
You will be able to source some Rockwool locally. Filling the bass section with it should make the bass deeper and less prominent.
Next you may modify the vent, which is too large and short, resulting in a peak in the frequency response. You cold make it longer by adding some plastic pipe to it, on the inside or reduce its diameter.
The most simple fix is to close the vent. You turn the cabinet in a closed one.
I will do a simulation for you, of a compareable random driver, tuned to a bass peak and then, inside the same volume, but closed. You will see how the response is flatter, closed. Any driver will react like this.
You will be able to source some Rockwool locally. Filling the bass section with it should make the bass deeper and less prominent.
Next you may modify the vent, which is too large and short, resulting in a peak in the frequency response. You cold make it longer by adding some plastic pipe to it, on the inside or reduce its diameter.
The most simple fix is to close the vent. You turn the cabinet in a closed one.
I will do a simulation for you, of a compareable random driver, tuned to a bass peak and then, inside the same volume, but closed. You will see how the response is flatter, closed. Any driver will react like this.
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Turbowatch2, do you think a foam on the vent would help somewhat? 👇
P.S - At first listen I found the bass so "shy" with the foam...
This way it seems to geve a better bass. 👇
P.S - At first listen I found the bass so "shy" with the foam...
This way it seems to geve a better bass. 👇
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The foam plug is a good way to modulate the low end of vented enclosures. Many speaker come with matching plugs.
If you place some kind of fabric inside the vent, depending on the grade of stuffing, you change the resonating system to an aperiodic vented one and finaly into a 100% closed box. Such vents where even sold as "Variovents" from Dynaudio a while ago.
As you do not measure, it is not easy to tell what is better. As you have gotten used to the bloated bass, closing the vent will first sound like something missing. You should shut down music for a moment after the modification, then slowly increase volume from zero to listening level and use it for a while. Your hearing has to adapt to the new frequency response. I'm quite sure you will find the sound more suited for modern music.
As I told you, filling the box with Rockwool plus plugging the vent will make the sound even more precise and extend the low range.
Aside from the shown change in response, the wool and /or plug will also prevent out of phase mid bass exiting through the vent.
If your room is not very large and the speaker has to stand near a wall, damping and stuffing the port might be a huge improvement.
Just give your self some time and do not change from A to B too often. For sure there is some music that will sound better even with too much bass. Same for low volume, if a speaker has such a "loudness like" response.
Maybe describe what kind of amplifier you use, a valve amp sure is not the best partner for this speaker.
If you place some kind of fabric inside the vent, depending on the grade of stuffing, you change the resonating system to an aperiodic vented one and finaly into a 100% closed box. Such vents where even sold as "Variovents" from Dynaudio a while ago.
As you do not measure, it is not easy to tell what is better. As you have gotten used to the bloated bass, closing the vent will first sound like something missing. You should shut down music for a moment after the modification, then slowly increase volume from zero to listening level and use it for a while. Your hearing has to adapt to the new frequency response. I'm quite sure you will find the sound more suited for modern music.
As I told you, filling the box with Rockwool plus plugging the vent will make the sound even more precise and extend the low range.
Aside from the shown change in response, the wool and /or plug will also prevent out of phase mid bass exiting through the vent.
If your room is not very large and the speaker has to stand near a wall, damping and stuffing the port might be a huge improvement.
Just give your self some time and do not change from A to B too often. For sure there is some music that will sound better even with too much bass. Same for low volume, if a speaker has such a "loudness like" response.
Maybe describe what kind of amplifier you use, a valve amp sure is not the best partner for this speaker.
You experience lack of bass with the original system? And what precise is wrong with the bass units? You (still) haven’t given us a clue.
Thanks, I'm gonna try to make the measures at some moment.
My dedicated listening room is 6 X 4 m. The speakers are 1,20m far from the back wall (measured from the back of the speaker) and 0,85m from the side wall (measured from the center of the front baffle).
Amplification is provided by a solid state integrated amplifier, more specifically a Hegel H200.
Regarding your first question, please understand that my previous speakers were Dynaudio's (one pair of Contour S 3.4 first, then a pair of Contour 30 just before these SF Grand Piano Domus) and to my ears the Dynaudio's always sounded great in the bass (specially the Contour 30). So, to my ears, the SF's lack that kind of bass I was used to hear from my previous Dynaudio's.
You might argue that maybe it wasn't a good idea to sell an almost-new great speaker like Dynaudio Contour 30 and buy an almost-vintage speaker like the SF Grand Piano Domus, and I must agree with you. But I had my particular reasons to have to do this sort of downgrade.
And to answer your second question: there's nothing wrong technically with the bass woofers, they are working fine. The problem is the bad looking of them only.
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Some additional information about the vent port of my SF speakers:
Based on that, what lenght and diameter would you suggest for me start experiences on the vent port?
There is an old thread at this forum just about a SF Grand Piano Domus speaker, with a lot of technical information there, but unfortunately I don't understand most of them. Here's the link:
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/sonus-faber-grand-piano-domus.285171/
If you guys could give a read there and tell if something can help in my case I would be very thankful.
- Port lenght: 11 cm
- Port diameter: 7,5 cm
- Tuning frequency of this speaker, according to some reviews: around 36 Hz
Based on that, what lenght and diameter would you suggest for me start experiences on the vent port?
There is an old thread at this forum just about a SF Grand Piano Domus speaker, with a lot of technical information there, but unfortunately I don't understand most of them. Here's the link:
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/sonus-faber-grand-piano-domus.285171/
If you guys could give a read there and tell if something can help in my case I would be very thankful.
I will have a read it in full, if I find the time. From a first sight, in post #8 there is a response of the speaker. If some beginner DIYS guy here had posted such a curve, I would first ask him how it was measured. If it was a realistic response curve, I would tell him to learn how to do a few proper 2-way speakers first and then, later, after some years of practicing, maybe start trying a 3-way.
Developing an excellent sounding 3-way speaker is nothing you do on a weekend. I know of professional developers, for which a 2-way is just a finger exercise, but that spend month on such 3-way projects and often discard a promissing combination, simply because it doesn't work out. Just using chassis from the same brand and line doesn't automatically make them match, even if this is the usual sales talk.
On the other hand, any report about exactly this speaker, may it be from private owners or professional reviewers, mentiones that the bass response is not the way it should be and may be problematic for some buyer.
Pro's review's always wrap such critic, of an advertisement buying brands product, in some soft words. Anyway, this univocaly is no speaker for Pop, Rock or even multi instumental classic music and impossible to play loud. The true, objective description, would simply be "this is a speaker design screwed up by it's developer".
Some pointed to the real history of Sonus Faber, in it's first years, came from a furniture building company. They had some ideas about HIFI and got a foot into speaker building, which is much more profitable than competing on the Italian furniture market.
So they might have had some external (expensive) developer hired and later tried to do it by them selves or cheaper personal. The "this can do any idiot" approach is well known in DIYS circles, as well as in the real world. Just read this forum, regularily.
Anything I read about SF over many years, had the focal point on the beautifull crafted cabinets. Usually over the first pages. Then, something like "Oh, yes, they play music, too." Today SF may have developed into a multi branched company, but these speakers are about 20 years old!
Comming back to the DOMUS, there are some hints that things didn't go exactly as planed in the development. The crossover with resistors in line with woofers and the helper magnets glued to the back of a chassis, show that some (expensive and to avoided in any industrial production) corrections where made, as no (cheap) stock chassis would fit. I know to use such "trick's" if you have to fit a speaker combination into an existing cabinet, which is not exactly made for the combination. Maybe the designer of the furniture and marketing guy had more to say than the speaker developer back in the day's? Seas had no car audio style, "low volume, deep output" woofers at that time.
Things may not be that bad, if you want to fix such a problem for your self. The DOMUS had to fit into a line of speakers and be "more" than the cheaper brother. As an owner you may ignore the 36Hz mark that was published in the sales papers, just to make it look more capable than the smaller brother.
There is only one problem in fixing this speaker: How much work the owner want's to invest. Next: What does he want to use them for.
Now, the first, most simple and cheap thing to measure, would be the impedance curve of his individual pair. It will tell what is happening inside the speaker. Next would be to discuss what may correct the problems for him.
Developing an excellent sounding 3-way speaker is nothing you do on a weekend. I know of professional developers, for which a 2-way is just a finger exercise, but that spend month on such 3-way projects and often discard a promissing combination, simply because it doesn't work out. Just using chassis from the same brand and line doesn't automatically make them match, even if this is the usual sales talk.
On the other hand, any report about exactly this speaker, may it be from private owners or professional reviewers, mentiones that the bass response is not the way it should be and may be problematic for some buyer.
Pro's review's always wrap such critic, of an advertisement buying brands product, in some soft words. Anyway, this univocaly is no speaker for Pop, Rock or even multi instumental classic music and impossible to play loud. The true, objective description, would simply be "this is a speaker design screwed up by it's developer".
Some pointed to the real history of Sonus Faber, in it's first years, came from a furniture building company. They had some ideas about HIFI and got a foot into speaker building, which is much more profitable than competing on the Italian furniture market.
So they might have had some external (expensive) developer hired and later tried to do it by them selves or cheaper personal. The "this can do any idiot" approach is well known in DIYS circles, as well as in the real world. Just read this forum, regularily.
Anything I read about SF over many years, had the focal point on the beautifull crafted cabinets. Usually over the first pages. Then, something like "Oh, yes, they play music, too." Today SF may have developed into a multi branched company, but these speakers are about 20 years old!
Comming back to the DOMUS, there are some hints that things didn't go exactly as planed in the development. The crossover with resistors in line with woofers and the helper magnets glued to the back of a chassis, show that some (expensive and to avoided in any industrial production) corrections where made, as no (cheap) stock chassis would fit. I know to use such "trick's" if you have to fit a speaker combination into an existing cabinet, which is not exactly made for the combination. Maybe the designer of the furniture and marketing guy had more to say than the speaker developer back in the day's? Seas had no car audio style, "low volume, deep output" woofers at that time.
Things may not be that bad, if you want to fix such a problem for your self. The DOMUS had to fit into a line of speakers and be "more" than the cheaper brother. As an owner you may ignore the 36Hz mark that was published in the sales papers, just to make it look more capable than the smaller brother.
There is only one problem in fixing this speaker: How much work the owner want's to invest. Next: What does he want to use them for.
Now, the first, most simple and cheap thing to measure, would be the impedance curve of his individual pair. It will tell what is happening inside the speaker. Next would be to discuss what may correct the problems for him.
For the outside look of the chassis, there are serveral ways to recondition them optically. I'm quite carefull with giving any tipp's how to do that, because I know enough people that will use pure alcohol, if I recommend puting a few drops in a glass of water... Also the "usual" product for doing something may be very different from country to country. It is easy to ruin the chassis using too much or the wrong product. Any smelly solvent is a sure no go, exept for ethanol alcohol, which is the same as Vodka! In fact I use it for cleaning small items sometimes, with a single drop of cleaner to reduce surface tension. Cachaça should work too.
OK, first use a brush to carefully mechanically remove dust sticking to the cone, surround and chassis from the outside. Any cavity may be filled with dirt over the years, if you wet this stuff later, it might mess up the job.
For the surround, my first try would be a damp (not wet!!) micro fiber cloth and water with some drops (not much!) from that stuff you use in the kitchen to wash dishes in the sink, or simple universal household cleaner. No soap. Rub them very carefull and see what comes off. If the speaker was used by a smoker, it may remove the brownish taint.
The surround is water resistant, but the speaker cone may not. It is paper from what I have seen.
You may put a tiny drop of water on the cone and see what it does. If you are lucky, the cone is impregnated or painted on the surface and the drop stays on the surface. If the water is soaked into the paper, any liquid should be avoided. Just use a dry micro fiber.
If mechanical cleaning does not work out well with the paper cone, there are many cone treatments aviable. I describe one option, but any glue, paint or other liquid that enters at the phase plug will ruin the speaker.
The most cone treatments are based on simple, white wood glue, thinned with water and at least 10000% overpriced if sold for speakers. Instead of buying such stuff, get a bottle of PVA glue and a few paint brushes. Thin a tablespoon of the stuff with water 2:1 for a first try and make some experiments on cardboard to find the right mix. Don't rub repeatedly on the paper and let dry over night after applying a thin coat. Clean the brushes with water after use. The word "thin" is often misunderstood by men not used to painting anything. When your dried samples look fine, you may use such stuff on your chassis (not on the tweeter!). The cone will get a little heavier, this doesn't matter much. The end result may be a silky or glossy looking cone, depending on the viscosity of the water/ glue mix and number of coats applied. Working with the speaker over your head may prevent glue leaking into the magnet. In any case, let them dry outside down for a while!
A simpler way, if you only want a black cone, is a new, fat permanent marker. I once treated a number of chassis using an old record player, making them rotate and carefully moving the marker from the inside to the outside.
Sometimes you have to get creative when you repair stuff that is not meant to be repaired...
OK, first use a brush to carefully mechanically remove dust sticking to the cone, surround and chassis from the outside. Any cavity may be filled with dirt over the years, if you wet this stuff later, it might mess up the job.
For the surround, my first try would be a damp (not wet!!) micro fiber cloth and water with some drops (not much!) from that stuff you use in the kitchen to wash dishes in the sink, or simple universal household cleaner. No soap. Rub them very carefull and see what comes off. If the speaker was used by a smoker, it may remove the brownish taint.
The surround is water resistant, but the speaker cone may not. It is paper from what I have seen.
You may put a tiny drop of water on the cone and see what it does. If you are lucky, the cone is impregnated or painted on the surface and the drop stays on the surface. If the water is soaked into the paper, any liquid should be avoided. Just use a dry micro fiber.
If mechanical cleaning does not work out well with the paper cone, there are many cone treatments aviable. I describe one option, but any glue, paint or other liquid that enters at the phase plug will ruin the speaker.
The most cone treatments are based on simple, white wood glue, thinned with water and at least 10000% overpriced if sold for speakers. Instead of buying such stuff, get a bottle of PVA glue and a few paint brushes. Thin a tablespoon of the stuff with water 2:1 for a first try and make some experiments on cardboard to find the right mix. Don't rub repeatedly on the paper and let dry over night after applying a thin coat. Clean the brushes with water after use. The word "thin" is often misunderstood by men not used to painting anything. When your dried samples look fine, you may use such stuff on your chassis (not on the tweeter!). The cone will get a little heavier, this doesn't matter much. The end result may be a silky or glossy looking cone, depending on the viscosity of the water/ glue mix and number of coats applied. Working with the speaker over your head may prevent glue leaking into the magnet. In any case, let them dry outside down for a while!
A simpler way, if you only want a black cone, is a new, fat permanent marker. I once treated a number of chassis using an old record player, making them rotate and carefully moving the marker from the inside to the outside.
Sometimes you have to get creative when you repair stuff that is not meant to be repaired...
If they were mine, I would take five minutes and one speaker and force a long piece of hard cardboard "divider" through the driver hole, and turn the cab into an ad hoc folded MLTL/quarterwave. If the bass didn't improve tenfold, just rip it out.
Thank you all for your help. 👍
I did some search and selected these 3 options of SEAS woofers to consider buying:
SEAS CA18RLY
SEAS CA18RNX
SEAS ER18RNX
Based on the technical information shown above, which one do you think would fit better in a medium-size tower speaker like my SF Grand Piano Domus?
Thanks.
I did some search and selected these 3 options of SEAS woofers to consider buying:
SEAS CA18RLY
SEAS CA18RNX
SEAS ER18RNX
Based on the technical information shown above, which one do you think would fit better in a medium-size tower speaker like my SF Grand Piano Domus?
Thanks.
I can not give you any information about any driver if I don`t know the volume it can use. The volume of the cabinet is the most important parameter needed for speaker construction.
I have some idea about it, which points into the direction that another chassis is no solution for you.
I have some idea about it, which points into the direction that another chassis is no solution for you.
The drivers don't look bad to me. It's obviously an OEM version of the CA18RLY, but I think with an additional small magnet and the strange white caps. https://audio.com.pl/testy/stereo/kolumny-glosnikowe/132-sonus-faber-grand-piano-domus
I don't think buying new drivers is a good idea at all.
If you want to spend some money, try these wipes - they made my laptop look like new! No guarantees they won't affect the coating, though 😱
https://www.meguiars.com/automotive/products/supreme-shiner-protectant-wipes
The review link shows the bass response and tuning:
Also you might want to read this old thread where people tried to pick at the bass response.
I don't think buying new drivers is a good idea at all.
If you want to spend some money, try these wipes - they made my laptop look like new! No guarantees they won't affect the coating, though 😱
https://www.meguiars.com/automotive/products/supreme-shiner-protectant-wipes
The review link shows the bass response and tuning:
Also you might want to read this old thread where people tried to pick at the bass response.
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As far as I know, some drivers are more suitable for bookshelf speakers, so that's my only concern, because I don't know if this is the case of the woofers I listed on the above message. In other words, I just would like to know which woofers from the ones I listed above would fit better im my medium-size tower speakers, based on their specifications.
As for the risk of not matching well with the other drivers musically, I assume it myself.
Thanks.
I may repeat: Without the volume of the cabinet, there is no answer possible. This seems to be a messed up construction, to get it right you need to provide some information.
You can use the SEAS driver I mentioned (one with an rnx) and will probaply not hear any difference. Maybe a little worse or a little better, but nothing essential. Not worth the 500€ the driver would cost me in Germany. The whole, used pair of speakers will not fetch much more than 1000€ in mint condition. They are 20 years old and sound ugly!
You can use the SEAS driver I mentioned (one with an rnx) and will probaply not hear any difference. Maybe a little worse or a little better, but nothing essential. Not worth the 500€ the driver would cost me in Germany. The whole, used pair of speakers will not fetch much more than 1000€ in mint condition. They are 20 years old and sound ugly!
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If you want a replacement, buy the RLY. Exchange the magnets from the old ones and you’ll probably have the exact same response it once had. The ’X’ Seas drivers shine with bigger magnets and will require adaptation of the port. Perfectly possible, but not without some measuring gear.
However this all seems no viable investment, as said above. I suggest cleaning them up and selling them in original state. Next buy another second hand system of your liking.
However this all seems no viable investment, as said above. I suggest cleaning them up and selling them in original state. Next buy another second hand system of your liking.