re: coax vs fullrange - after I added a LC allpass delay network to the woofer on this 1144 Eminence 12", the crossover snapped into focus comparing favorably in coherency with my 206EN plus giving 4dB more sensitivity and much more dynamic capability. fwiw I like (stock) FE205en better overall than 1772 (at its old price - $300+ /driver now is just crazy too much)
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
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FE206 needs a horn. Your placement requirement nixed it pretty quick. FF225wk might work thou. FF165wk if you run out of volume.
If you had a pair of active woofers with decent "HF" extension some of these (ie 166, 206) can be used as mid-tweeters in a sealed box with the woofers used to fill in below where-ever they natuarally fall off.
dave
If you can fit an 8" you should be able to fit 2 4s vertically.
Also, given your very compromised placement, it is likely not high on the list of issues to worry about.
As long as the listener is far enuff away, they should blend sufficiently to be a non-issue, and given the placement may actually be advantageous.
dave
My main speakers are based on the Beyma 8BX coaxial driver. These give deep bass in a 65 litres BR box, can play loud, and have a studio monitor kind of sound (which I like)
Here is the factsheet of the -it seems somewhat updated- 8BX/N (I didn't compare the parameters):
http://profesional.beyma.com/ingles/pdf/8BXN.pdf
Next to music of all kinds (sometimes pretty loud) it is very convincing for AV use.
In smaller boxes it will work just as well with less bass of course (Klang & Ton once published a compact studio monitor design with it), if you're going to pair it with a big sub this may be interesting as well.
I was lucky enough that a professional designer who planned to sell a box with it experimented with around 20 filters to get the tonality just right, and he was so kind to share this schematic with me. It would have been very difficult for me to replicate his success, but even so I think you can get decent results with a more classic filter as well.
Update: I just notice this interesting new model:
http://profesional.beyma.com/ingles/pdf/8CX300Nd.pdf
Remarkably low distortion. Tempting, very tempting ! Must model in WinISD...
Here is the factsheet of the -it seems somewhat updated- 8BX/N (I didn't compare the parameters):
http://profesional.beyma.com/ingles/pdf/8BXN.pdf
Next to music of all kinds (sometimes pretty loud) it is very convincing for AV use.
In smaller boxes it will work just as well with less bass of course (Klang & Ton once published a compact studio monitor design with it), if you're going to pair it with a big sub this may be interesting as well.
I was lucky enough that a professional designer who planned to sell a box with it experimented with around 20 filters to get the tonality just right, and he was so kind to share this schematic with me. It would have been very difficult for me to replicate his success, but even so I think you can get decent results with a more classic filter as well.
Update: I just notice this interesting new model:
http://profesional.beyma.com/ingles/pdf/8CX300Nd.pdf
Remarkably low distortion. Tempting, very tempting ! Must model in WinISD...
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You do know what I said about the AV123 15" driver, right?
It wouldn't be my first choice in your particular situation.
And yes, that TB driver you linked to would be a great alternative. At least I think it would be.
Yes and no. It's not the same driver, but it is based on it and measures similar. The AV123 driver has some slight differences. One of which is supposedly less x-max. But it's also only $97 shipped BNIB. There are a LOT of them still available from GR research and Erich at AVS still has a couple left.
It was my first choice because I've always wanted to build one, so I'll finally get to listen to it. And for $170 including driver & amplifier (+ wood), it's a good deal.
Sealed subs may have a better sound, but the MFW-15 models the most SPL from 20-120hz and due to location of the sub not getting any corner boundry gain, I want every last SPL possible. 🙂
Would the two 4's on each side require a filter?
Yes, the two 4's will fit vertically mounted.
Same cone with matching numbers, same basket with matching numbers, same magnet, same surround, same spider, same VC, etc, etc, etc, and measures identical to each other. a.k.a. - Same driver...
And quite frankly, I wouldn't trust anything AV123 (and probably GR Research) publishes after hearing about all the crap the owner Mark did through the years, but that's just me. If I knew back then what I know now about that company, I would have never bought their X-Statik speakers and would have gone elsewhere with my money.
And if in fact it has less x-max, even more of a reason to go with the genuine Dayton driver.
Also, sealed isn't "better" than ported. People just say that because a lot of folks don't know how to properly design, build and tune a ported enclosure. Even if you get remotely close to the right airspace for a sealed enclosure, they are hard to "eff" up.
But hey, it's your time, money and project... 😉
CZ:
the design constraints are getting even more interesting - dare I suggest that in-walls might be considered as part of the solution to the dispersion factor of the calculus
Charles: whatever else can be said about sealed bass enclosures - they certainly make for easy solutions to tricky installations such as CZ's project , in which I'd suspect getting the bass "right" will be the least of the problems
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I'm getting quite respectable SPLs from HT speakers using 9 3 1/2 Aura NS3 equivalents each that I have built, plus the overall cost/performance ratio is hard to beat. Each of the 8 speakers I am using will handle a 150 Watt amplifier without risk of damage and no driver has even bottomed out in several months of use run full range down to 25hz. Perhaps a rectangular array of this type of driver with angled panels for each column to aid horizontal dispersion is an option for this installation?
No filter.
On a theoretical basis there is some worry about combing. In practise, not an issue unless you are extremely near-field (ie a couple ft or closer.
dave
Hey Chris, I have nothing against either enclosure design. It just bugs the heck out of me when people say one is better than the other. They are BOTH equally good performers as long as they are designed properly.
Unless these constraints from the original post have been relaxed
the room volume and system location
do present an interesting challenge
I HATE that they will not allow other placement. Especially after seeing how unobtrusive thoriated's killer "line array" looks,
But yes, we are stuck with the cubbyholes. 🙁
The EL70's are an interesting speaker. Been googling them.
But yes, we are stuck with the cubbyholes. 🙁
The EL70's are an interesting speaker. Been googling them.
Bose 901 style, but front firing & front ported?
Each side getting two rows of three or four each 3" aura NS3's? Total of twelve or sixteen drivers?
Each side getting two rows of three or four each 3" aura NS3's? Total of twelve or sixteen drivers?
I have to concede that even a total of 72 3-1/2 drivers probably won't give you hearing damage right away (I've got my Basement Blasters for that) - but they do get surprisingly loud when needed in my 17' x 27' x 10' HT area. Each of these HT speakers, using 9 drivers, has the equivalent radiating area of a 10-11" driver.
May be worth a try. With a higher LF cutoff point & a SW, you can probably get as much efficiency and output as you want with a multiples of a higher efficiency but lower Xmax alternative 3" - 4" driver angled for improved dispersion. If my HT speakers have a limitation in practice, it is that they will start sounding somewhat congested at very high output levels having heavy bass due to the long excursions. A tweeter would help here and with dispersion in general, but I decided not to use one largely because I wanted to keep speaker voicing as constant as possible across the full audio range for the NS3 knockoffs I used.
May be worth a try. With a higher LF cutoff point & a SW, you can probably get as much efficiency and output as you want with a multiples of a higher efficiency but lower Xmax alternative 3" - 4" driver angled for improved dispersion. If my HT speakers have a limitation in practice, it is that they will start sounding somewhat congested at very high output levels having heavy bass due to the long excursions. A tweeter would help here and with dispersion in general, but I decided not to use one largely because I wanted to keep speaker voicing as constant as possible across the full audio range for the NS3 knockoffs I used.
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I have a pair of bipole speakers using the NS3. High SPL and bass heavy materials really make the sound congesting.
Another idea if you're not happy about the single 4" idea: use the 4", supported by a midwoofer, have the x-o at around 500Hz.
Another idea if you're not happy about the single 4" idea: use the 4", supported by a midwoofer, have the x-o at around 500Hz.
I'm sorry for being such a flip-flopping PITA. You all have been very patient with my questions. 🙂
I was thinking EL70's but mistaking them for a different 4" model.
Two EL70's will not fit vertically mounted. They are 4 7/8" tall, while my available exterior dimensions are:
8 7/8"H x 23 1/8"W x 25"D
Can two EL70's work side by side, horizontally mounted?
They appear to have really nice output when tuned to 49hz in a .75 cu3 cabinet.
http://www.creativesound.ca/pdf/TheEL70Ported.pdf
I like the idea, but that would need crossover work done and this isn't something I'm capable of designing on my own. If I did go that direction, then the "Overnight Sensations" combined with a midwoofer would be something I look into, provided it has good off axis response. Which I'm not sure if it does.
I was thinking EL70's but mistaking them for a different 4" model.
Two EL70's will not fit vertically mounted. They are 4 7/8" tall, while my available exterior dimensions are:
8 7/8"H x 23 1/8"W x 25"D
Can two EL70's work side by side, horizontally mounted?
They appear to have really nice output when tuned to 49hz in a .75 cu3 cabinet.
http://www.creativesound.ca/pdf/TheEL70Ported.pdf
I like the idea, but that would need crossover work done and this isn't something I'm capable of designing on my own. If I did go that direction, then the "Overnight Sensations" combined with a midwoofer would be something I look into, provided it has good off axis response. Which I'm not sure if it does.
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