Run 200 amps through it 
No, seriously... check http://sound.au.com/madashell10.htm#pwr-leads and http://sound.westhost.com/madashell.htm#burnin .
No, seriously... check http://sound.au.com/madashell10.htm#pwr-leads and http://sound.westhost.com/madashell.htm#burnin .
swede said:
Why not swede ... if it means that i'll cop a whole heap of flak i for one couldnt care less.... If it means the truth of the matter comes to light and even one person is better off than it was worth it.... sure its nice to be liked but if popularity is the price i must pay for speaking the truth of the matter than so be it.... sure i get things wrong ... Geoff can tell you all about how i've stuffed things up when writing replies to posts (admittedly i do so most times simply out of inexperience).... but we all get things wrong some times ..... and i'm not afraid to admit when it's me who's made the mistake.... as for this topic tho, i am sick of seeing people who have a genuine passion but are blinded by the utter lies out there and so never achieve what they could have...... so i'll keep on treading on peoples toes and being controversial but i wont be shut off to suggestion on things i am not totally qualified to answer (thanks again to Geoff, Paulb, GRollins and others) ...... the day i do that is the day i stop learning and that is the day i might as well forget about it all.....
Finally swede, thanks for your support on this matter.
Oh and as already stated above, an RF filter can be a worth while addition but they too have downsides and dont always make things better....
A power line filter (that kills crap coming in) can make a significant difference to sound quality. This is not the same as just an expensive power cord, though, so beware. Look for actual specifications, instead of testimonials.
The ESP site given earlier has an amazing story about a review of a device that (after being "burnt in"!) adds all this great stuff to any audio system. The reviewer absolutely loved it and raved about all the wonderful things it did. But a follow-on review by the same guy said it wasn't that good after all, in fact it was bad.
I think the payoff cheque promised for the first review never arrived...
The ESP site given earlier has an amazing story about a review of a device that (after being "burnt in"!) adds all this great stuff to any audio system. The reviewer absolutely loved it and raved about all the wonderful things it did. But a follow-on review by the same guy said it wasn't that good after all, in fact it was bad.
I think the payoff cheque promised for the first review never arrived...
Little longer reply
To all those that gave AudioFreak a quick short reply, that was my first thought as well, but, after reading his later reply, I thought I would post a little explanation.
AudioFreak, the RF filter thing is a valid item, beyond that, why would "burning in" a power cord be something you would want to do? Think about it this way, are you concerned that the outlet is properly burned-in? What about the wires, breaker, meter, pole transformer, etc? You start to see a little of what's going on here. Worrying about "burning in" a very short section of the power feed is rather pointless when you look at the total length all the way back to the power station. Granted, filtering and what not over that short distance WILL make a difference, but why would you care about a "hospital grade" or "audiofile grade" or whatever grade power cord that does nothing? Why are you worrying about that power cord when its most likely plugged into a $2 (max) outlet in the wall? (Unless of course you replaced the outlet yourself, or had it replaced with a higher quality one) Even then, you've got solid core romex running in the walls to the breaker box... Basically, my view (and apparently shared by others) is that its not worth spending big bucks on.
I'm not trying to make fun of you, AudioFreak, but thought I'd provide a little more information, rather than just "Its stupid". No offenses?
To all those that gave AudioFreak a quick short reply, that was my first thought as well, but, after reading his later reply, I thought I would post a little explanation.
AudioFreak, the RF filter thing is a valid item, beyond that, why would "burning in" a power cord be something you would want to do? Think about it this way, are you concerned that the outlet is properly burned-in? What about the wires, breaker, meter, pole transformer, etc? You start to see a little of what's going on here. Worrying about "burning in" a very short section of the power feed is rather pointless when you look at the total length all the way back to the power station. Granted, filtering and what not over that short distance WILL make a difference, but why would you care about a "hospital grade" or "audiofile grade" or whatever grade power cord that does nothing? Why are you worrying about that power cord when its most likely plugged into a $2 (max) outlet in the wall? (Unless of course you replaced the outlet yourself, or had it replaced with a higher quality one) Even then, you've got solid core romex running in the walls to the breaker box... Basically, my view (and apparently shared by others) is that its not worth spending big bucks on.
I'm not trying to make fun of you, AudioFreak, but thought I'd provide a little more information, rather than just "Its stupid". No offenses?
Gee, didn't realize I had wandered into a hornet's nest. Dare I even say where I'm coming from on this subject without fear of ridicule?
If you hear no difference when tweaking the mains, fine. I can respect that, but it is contrary to my experience. Perhaps this is your experience because 99% of the expensive cords out there are designed without any concept of what really affects the sound, so there is good reason for skepticism, especially given some of the prices involved, but I would recommend keeping an open mind on the subject.
As for the question: "why would "burning in" a power cord be something you would want to do? Think about it this way, are you concerned that the outlet is properly burned-in? What about the wires, breaker, meter, pole transformer, etc? You start to see a little of what's going on here. Worrying about "burning in" a very short section of the power feed is rather pointless when you look at the total length all the way back to the power station."
I think the point is that you want to create a break or discontinuity of the noise that is being carried over the poles and into your house. If this break can be achieved, then you start with a clean slate. At that point, burn in may actually have an effect. A properly designed power cord will create a "quiet zone" that does not admit noise, but not as an inline filter. Think of it this way: The entire length of wire from the power station to your house acts as an antenna. The wiring in your house acts as an antenna. So it is attracting noise from the outside along its entire length. So the question is, " Is the noise that is being accumulated along its length being transmitted through the conductor? What if there is a section of cable between the wall and your equipment that does not allow for the accumulation of noise, because it is properly designed and properly shielded? Is the sum total of all the noise accumulated from the power station on being transmitted into your equipment through the conductor, nevertheless? Or is signal and noise being transmitted via the field that surrounds the conductor? If this is the case, then affecting the field may effect the amount of noise brought into the system. Voodoo? Perhaps, but either those of us who can hear differences are truly deluded and deaf or there are phenomenon here worthy of investigation.
If you hear no difference when tweaking the mains, fine. I can respect that, but it is contrary to my experience. Perhaps this is your experience because 99% of the expensive cords out there are designed without any concept of what really affects the sound, so there is good reason for skepticism, especially given some of the prices involved, but I would recommend keeping an open mind on the subject.
As for the question: "why would "burning in" a power cord be something you would want to do? Think about it this way, are you concerned that the outlet is properly burned-in? What about the wires, breaker, meter, pole transformer, etc? You start to see a little of what's going on here. Worrying about "burning in" a very short section of the power feed is rather pointless when you look at the total length all the way back to the power station."
I think the point is that you want to create a break or discontinuity of the noise that is being carried over the poles and into your house. If this break can be achieved, then you start with a clean slate. At that point, burn in may actually have an effect. A properly designed power cord will create a "quiet zone" that does not admit noise, but not as an inline filter. Think of it this way: The entire length of wire from the power station to your house acts as an antenna. The wiring in your house acts as an antenna. So it is attracting noise from the outside along its entire length. So the question is, " Is the noise that is being accumulated along its length being transmitted through the conductor? What if there is a section of cable between the wall and your equipment that does not allow for the accumulation of noise, because it is properly designed and properly shielded? Is the sum total of all the noise accumulated from the power station on being transmitted into your equipment through the conductor, nevertheless? Or is signal and noise being transmitted via the field that surrounds the conductor? If this is the case, then affecting the field may effect the amount of noise brought into the system. Voodoo? Perhaps, but either those of us who can hear differences are truly deluded and deaf or there are phenomenon here worthy of investigation.
Joseph Cohen said:
Yep. This is easily verified by looking at the output of the "magic cord" with a scope. I cannot believe that anyone would argue this point, as it is purely a matter of fact.
It may shield from RF picked up by the cord, but you have to consider that mains lines rarely have transients less than several volts, and often have more noise than this. The mV-or-less induced RF noise will be swamped by the pre-existing noise.
As HDTVman noted a well designed supply considers such noise and is designed to supply clean power despite it.
Quote:
"It may shield from RF picked up by the cord, but you have to consider that mains lines rarely have transients less than several volts, and often have more noise than this. The mV-or-less induced RF noise will be swamped by the pre-existing noise."
Point well taken. Of course the power supply should handle these "big" spikes etc. But I wouldn't underestimate the noise picked up by the power cord.
"It may shield from RF picked up by the cord, but you have to consider that mains lines rarely have transients less than several volts, and often have more noise than this. The mV-or-less induced RF noise will be swamped by the pre-existing noise."
Point well taken. Of course the power supply should handle these "big" spikes etc. But I wouldn't underestimate the noise picked up by the power cord.
If you want to beleave the snake oil about 6 feet of WAY over priced power cord making a difference, that's up to you. The amout of noise pickup in a 6 foot power cord is so small that if that makes a difference then I think you need to look for the realy problem with the system, ground loops, poorly shielded interconnects pooly filtered power supply or high levels of radiated noise from near by devices. I have seen several cases where just moving the wires around can cure noise problems too. Does that mean that I need to install an automatic cable shaker?
Now, if you are talking about the clearer inner detail or the air these magic cables give the music well I give up, your hopeless.
Now, if you are talking about the clearer inner detail or the air these magic cables give the music well I give up, your hopeless.
While I agree that the pricing on cables is absolutely scandalous, they do make a difference. I wouldn't care to try to hear it on a mid-fi system, as the resolution isn't sufficient. The effects are subtle, and in my opinion, not worth the huge cost of the cables; there are far cheaper ways to make a larger difference.
But to say that there's <i>no</i> difference? That's foolish.
Can you hear absolute phase on your system? (That one's been 'proved,' not that people needed anything other than their ears even before it was 'proved.') If not, then there's no need to pursue cable sonic differences. It'll be a lot cheaper, too. Think of all the money you'll save by not buying the cables...though a DIY approach might be worth pursuing. Some of these cables really wouldn't be that complicated to make.
I've always found it fascinating in a car-wreck sort of way to listen to the heat, the anger, the condemnation in peoples' words when they pounce on someone who dares to say something that doesn't fit into their value system. Rather reminds me of the way people react when their religion is questioned. If nothing else (I'm wearing my Moderator hat, now), I'd like to ask people to be a little more polite even when they happen to disagree.
To try to approach the question in a 'logical' way rather leads one down a blind alley. Galileo didn't know he'd see the moons of Jupiter when he turned his telescope towards the sky--indeed, 'logic' would have saved him the effort of looking, right?--yet they were there when he looked. It's easy to scoff--ask the Catholic church about their reaction to his discovery--yet who was right?
Can't hear differences in things? You need a better 'telescope.' If nothing else, it's a grand excuse for the next half-dozen projects.
Don't get me wrong. Logic is a useful tool. But, like a knife, wrongly applied, it can do more harm than good. Logic is subservient to observations. Always. There are moons around Jupiter? Hmmm. Okay, let's start talking about ways that such a thing could come to pass. But if 'logic' tells you not to look, you're going to miss an awful lot of interesting things in the world.
And who's the fool then?
Grey
But to say that there's <i>no</i> difference? That's foolish.
Can you hear absolute phase on your system? (That one's been 'proved,' not that people needed anything other than their ears even before it was 'proved.') If not, then there's no need to pursue cable sonic differences. It'll be a lot cheaper, too. Think of all the money you'll save by not buying the cables...though a DIY approach might be worth pursuing. Some of these cables really wouldn't be that complicated to make.
I've always found it fascinating in a car-wreck sort of way to listen to the heat, the anger, the condemnation in peoples' words when they pounce on someone who dares to say something that doesn't fit into their value system. Rather reminds me of the way people react when their religion is questioned. If nothing else (I'm wearing my Moderator hat, now), I'd like to ask people to be a little more polite even when they happen to disagree.
To try to approach the question in a 'logical' way rather leads one down a blind alley. Galileo didn't know he'd see the moons of Jupiter when he turned his telescope towards the sky--indeed, 'logic' would have saved him the effort of looking, right?--yet they were there when he looked. It's easy to scoff--ask the Catholic church about their reaction to his discovery--yet who was right?
Can't hear differences in things? You need a better 'telescope.' If nothing else, it's a grand excuse for the next half-dozen projects.
Don't get me wrong. Logic is a useful tool. But, like a knife, wrongly applied, it can do more harm than good. Logic is subservient to observations. Always. There are moons around Jupiter? Hmmm. Okay, let's start talking about ways that such a thing could come to pass. But if 'logic' tells you not to look, you're going to miss an awful lot of interesting things in the world.
And who's the fool then?
Grey
Can't pass up a line cord thread.
Besides upping the "my system is more special than yours" bragging factor exactly what is "burning" in a line cord supposed to do for you? What's next, do we have to burn it in with a particular waveform or load? I got it, you have to burn the cable in with a Waring blender set on "Pulse", oh and it has to be a blue blender too. Sheesh!
Look, the power line mains transformer (the one up on the pole outside your house) is optimised to pass 60 hz. Very little energy at higher frequencies get passed through it (this is the reason why those X-10 controllers don't work from one house to the next. And that's a good thing too, otherwise I'd probably break down and buy one of those sneaky X-10 video camera thingies so I can spy on the lucious girl that lives next door and my wife would brain me with a frying pan when she caught me.
The power transformer inside your audio gear (assuming you don't have one of Kilowatt's monster amps that directly rectify the AC line voltage) has simular properties (maybe we ought to start calling him KillerWatt). The combination of the two transformers in series actually makes a pretty decent high frequency noise filter. Most audio gear I have seen is pretty good at shrugging off 60 Hz noise on the AC line (duh) so I doubt that low frequency noise is likely to do your sound too much damage.
In addition, virtually any decent design incorporates some kind of RFI filter on the AC line input (even if just an 'X' cap). If nothing else they do it so they can pass FCC emissions testing.
That's not to say you don't need good surge suppression (and I'm not talking about dinky little MOV's or PC outlet strips here). All bets are off during a lightning storm. Personally I like the unplug it from the wall and hide under the bed approach, but you can't do that if you aren't home or if the gear is located somewhere else (like a commercial sound system).
The only reasons I have ever found to use a special line cord for audio gear is because you are either (1) drawing more amps than the normal Edison plug (USA) can reliably supply or (2) because you want to use nonstandard outlets for your audio gear.
I like to use 20 Amp twist lock outlets and plugs for large sound systems (like the kind you use in Churches/bars etc), on dedicated 20 amp circuit breakers (with dedicated neutrals and grounds too). The idea is to make it very difficult for anyone else to plug into the system's clean power and also to help prevent some numskull from kicking the cord out of the wall socket during a performance (I was that numskull once, wasn't pretty).
Unless you are buying crap, I have found the line cord provided by the manufacturer to be perfectly adequate. If you really want to make a difference in your power then have an electrician wire you up a clean, dedicated circuit running off it's own breaker and don't share neutrals/grounds with the hot tub in the master bath. Since doing can actually make a difference in your systems performance I'm sure you're not that interested.
Ta-Ta
Phil
Besides upping the "my system is more special than yours" bragging factor exactly what is "burning" in a line cord supposed to do for you? What's next, do we have to burn it in with a particular waveform or load? I got it, you have to burn the cable in with a Waring blender set on "Pulse", oh and it has to be a blue blender too. Sheesh!
Look, the power line mains transformer (the one up on the pole outside your house) is optimised to pass 60 hz. Very little energy at higher frequencies get passed through it (this is the reason why those X-10 controllers don't work from one house to the next. And that's a good thing too, otherwise I'd probably break down and buy one of those sneaky X-10 video camera thingies so I can spy on the lucious girl that lives next door and my wife would brain me with a frying pan when she caught me.
The power transformer inside your audio gear (assuming you don't have one of Kilowatt's monster amps that directly rectify the AC line voltage) has simular properties (maybe we ought to start calling him KillerWatt). The combination of the two transformers in series actually makes a pretty decent high frequency noise filter. Most audio gear I have seen is pretty good at shrugging off 60 Hz noise on the AC line (duh) so I doubt that low frequency noise is likely to do your sound too much damage.
In addition, virtually any decent design incorporates some kind of RFI filter on the AC line input (even if just an 'X' cap). If nothing else they do it so they can pass FCC emissions testing.
That's not to say you don't need good surge suppression (and I'm not talking about dinky little MOV's or PC outlet strips here). All bets are off during a lightning storm. Personally I like the unplug it from the wall and hide under the bed approach, but you can't do that if you aren't home or if the gear is located somewhere else (like a commercial sound system).
The only reasons I have ever found to use a special line cord for audio gear is because you are either (1) drawing more amps than the normal Edison plug (USA) can reliably supply or (2) because you want to use nonstandard outlets for your audio gear.
I like to use 20 Amp twist lock outlets and plugs for large sound systems (like the kind you use in Churches/bars etc), on dedicated 20 amp circuit breakers (with dedicated neutrals and grounds too). The idea is to make it very difficult for anyone else to plug into the system's clean power and also to help prevent some numskull from kicking the cord out of the wall socket during a performance (I was that numskull once, wasn't pretty).
Unless you are buying crap, I have found the line cord provided by the manufacturer to be perfectly adequate. If you really want to make a difference in your power then have an electrician wire you up a clean, dedicated circuit running off it's own breaker and don't share neutrals/grounds with the hot tub in the master bath. Since doing can actually make a difference in your systems performance I'm sure you're not that interested.
Ta-Ta
Phil
Re: Little longer reply
It appears you misunderstood my earlier posts.... i too believe the 'burning in' cords is completely pointless.... also rf filters can can help but not always and a good supply should be able to properly deal with the noise anyway .... and i agree with grey that some of the better cables do legitimately improve the sound but many dont either....
Schaef said:
It appears you misunderstood my earlier posts.... i too believe the 'burning in' cords is completely pointless.... also rf filters can can help but not always and a good supply should be able to properly deal with the noise anyway .... and i agree with grey that some of the better cables do legitimately improve the sound but many dont either....
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