So now you're second guessing the musicians to stay employed as a "music production artist"?
That is true, a good musician can balance himself so the engineer has little to do on that. The best recording i made was Morrocon (Gwana) folk music by two older musicians who played for over 50 years on the streets in Fes, and mixed themselves. I did set up a whole leap of microphones, but the stereo mic in front of them was all i needed for that, the rest was not used in the final "mix". That was largely due to the skills of the musisicans (altough the acoustics and mic placement did help also off course).
Sorry, this is just the reality with the grass roots level I work with. Nobody is trying to be step on anybodys back if that is what you mean? In general everyone on this kind of situations want best outcome, it's just that playing an instrument skillfully requires a skill. If you work with experienced artists and have luxyry of dedicated recording space and ample time no such compromises arise and the end result is better, better sounding symbals on the end result. What I mean is that the symbal sound isn't very important, most important is to get the song deliver it's thing, and if the drummer ruins it something needs to be done, either by guidance or by compromising with recording technique, but everyone in the room thinks it's the right thing to do. In regards to the topic, if symbal sound on a recording doesn't sound realistic it might not be the playback system, but realities in the process of making the recording. As others have mentioned, it could be also production that makes the symbals sound not real, but still appropriate to the end product. Again realistic sound on such occasion is not due to playback system, but how the recording was made.
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Cymbals have been recorded in hi-fi for decades. You're talking fluffy nonsense with invented boogeyman words like "quasi-omnidirectional", "time envelope" and "reverberant sonic radiation signature" to scare little children? Apparently that contraption isn't in a room either? It wasn't outside, so where was it? In an anti-matter chamber? And you're radiating nulls!!!??? Brilliant stuff!
So you are trying to justify your existence as a music production artist. Personally, I would like more than this one choice in recording/production style. Offer the music in uncompressed format, too, and let the chips fall where they might--there is no additional work required.
I'm pretty sure where this will lead us.
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Well if trying to make best of the situation is called producing then guilty as charged. Perhaps I don't see it as you do, I'm specifically not one, I'm called to record and occasion, I come in and get out. Usually within two hours first song is done and within the day perhaps ten songs depending on how late we started, so end result is as they have it. I'm not getting realistic cymbal sounds due to various reasons mentioned in the first post. While interesting to hear more about how you see this, it's getting bit of topic. I'd very much like to get as good quality of a sound as possible, unfortunately it's often what it is done like this.
I want what the musicians create--not someone sitting at a desk "correcting" it. For that matter, I like non-mulitracked recordings where the musicians get to choose (in real time) what they want it to sound like. The phase fidelity is much better,
I can hear multi-tracked music defects in my recordings. The recordings where the musicians are recorded together are the ones that send shivers up my spine with the realism of reproduction.
I can hear multi-tracked music defects in my recordings. The recordings where the musicians are recorded together are the ones that send shivers up my spine with the realism of reproduction.
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Yeah that's the target I agree with you on that. Not sure if you read my first post? As an example, if you arrive to a new place to record some tunes, where there is no possibility to move the stuff around, it's a rehearsal space with no acoustics and one day time to make it everybody playing at once, and the cymbals might not sound realistic on the recording because it's more important to let the band do their thing than concentrate on the cymbals.
So if cymbals don't sound realistic at home it's not necessarily due to playback system but due to various reasons with the recording process. It could be that someone "corrected it" as you have noticed is something you don't like, or that he situation didn't allow recording technique to make realistic sounds come through, or any number of reasons other than the playback system.
So if cymbals don't sound realistic at home it's not necessarily due to playback system but due to various reasons with the recording process. It could be that someone "corrected it" as you have noticed is something you don't like, or that he situation didn't allow recording technique to make realistic sounds come through, or any number of reasons other than the playback system.
LOL - perhaps they do - I suggest you put you ear 30cm from the cymbal and I crash it and the you can listen to the same crash 3 meter away ;-)
There will be a HF drop man.
//
Hello friend.
In my humble opinion it is all about dynamics (speed). I would like to encourage you to listen to this sample I recorded at the western electric presentation. Mind you this is a 90 years old speaker delivering delicate and dynamic sound like no other speaker I heard at the show. 90 years old!!! Some of our ancestors had better hifi then we do.
Fun fact, the Göbel room using 100,000€ DAC played the same track digitally, it was good but not as the WE analog based system.
Enjoy 😉
These are quite obvious to hear in a live acoustic situation so it's not fluffy language. Maybe for you..
I highly recommend to watch
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DdYULBK8vGQ&t=2s
Which shows why "a cymbal is not just a sheet of metal".
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DdYULBK8vGQ&t=2s
Which shows why "a cymbal is not just a sheet of metal".
Good real cymbals are hard to find too. Or at least the good ones are little expensive.
Then find ones that ring in a good key.
Wide variation here on music genre and drummer styles.
Challenge to record either way. But has been well worked out over the years
Same theory holds to the drums itself, even a string ensemble.
Without wild science guessing, The real thing sounds real go figure.
The compression/ limiter theories get old.
You wont record close mic drum recordings without it.
And not going to rehash, the recording methods that I have heard discussed for 30 plus years now.
Every band, every player, every room and setup is different.
Mic technology and the overall signal path has greatly greatly improved over the last 20 years even.
Not going to listen to the 1960's dynamics blah blah blah is better because of blah blah blah.
Ribbon or Planar is better for some reasons in monitoring, even " junk" ancient paper tweets have a place for mixes.
Really depends. Some " magical" recording techniques actually create a lot of phase issues and it really depends.
With the room, mic placement, and how it is mixed.
It will never sound the same, but even 30 plus years ago there is multiple famous sample libraries of cymbals recorded.
With a wide range of brands and cymbal types. Also recorded at 20 to even 128 different velocity hits. For accurate sampling
velocity mapping etc etc. Sound rather " real" isolated. In a final mix it changes greatly.
Probably 100 plus different ways to hit a cymbal, and 100 or 128 velocities you could map.
So there is no "'right" and "wrong" way to do it. And probably a sample of every one regardless
Then find ones that ring in a good key.
Wide variation here on music genre and drummer styles.
Challenge to record either way. But has been well worked out over the years
Same theory holds to the drums itself, even a string ensemble.
Without wild science guessing, The real thing sounds real go figure.
The compression/ limiter theories get old.
You wont record close mic drum recordings without it.
And not going to rehash, the recording methods that I have heard discussed for 30 plus years now.
Every band, every player, every room and setup is different.
Mic technology and the overall signal path has greatly greatly improved over the last 20 years even.
Not going to listen to the 1960's dynamics blah blah blah is better because of blah blah blah.
Ribbon or Planar is better for some reasons in monitoring, even " junk" ancient paper tweets have a place for mixes.
Really depends. Some " magical" recording techniques actually create a lot of phase issues and it really depends.
With the room, mic placement, and how it is mixed.
It will never sound the same, but even 30 plus years ago there is multiple famous sample libraries of cymbals recorded.
With a wide range of brands and cymbal types. Also recorded at 20 to even 128 different velocity hits. For accurate sampling
velocity mapping etc etc. Sound rather " real" isolated. In a final mix it changes greatly.
Probably 100 plus different ways to hit a cymbal, and 100 or 128 velocities you could map.
So there is no "'right" and "wrong" way to do it. And probably a sample of every one regardless
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from now on we will only allow rubber drum sticks to be used
or every cymbal must be tamed with a 10x10cm alubutyl sheet glued on it
or every cymbal must be tamed with a 10x10cm alubutyl sheet glued on it
I agree with you. When you listen to a band rehearsal (no mics except for singer), cymbals and hi-hats are loud and sounds great!
Studios are disregarding cymbals and hi-hats on most recordings. And it's worse: some tech intentionally limit the frequency response - I saw it once, sometime ago, with my eyes, during a mix in a professional studio - the tech limited hi-hats to 12kHz to "sound better" and original material was recorded with a high quality AKG 414 mic.
I have other friends that run professional studios - their vocabulary is about compressing, limiting etc.
Some use 24-bit digital recorder and the VU meter is always peaking to maximum.
We should say: "hey, this is not a k7 tape, you can record at -30dB, -40dB and still have a nice S/N".
No solution.
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Exactly, Thousand of venues, Thousands of recordings they all sound different.
Indoors or outdoors all I can think of.
The magic of live music is live music.
Unless there is some strange science to describe The Pompeii amphitheater.
Watching Roger Waters hit a gong with all his might, had a strange effect on me as a child.
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Didnt pay 1500$ for a 24" Zildjian K series to do that by far.
I cant wait to crack it actually. Because that is the life of a cymbal.
Indeed! I have many to choose from here in metro Atlanta, but my posting is just a guide for choosing drivers/horns to hopefully replicate a dance organ's cymbals.