Well I'm still trying to find some quiet time to listen with the good headphones. Sadly xmas break is not allowing that.
Happy to give you some more time if that would be good. Understand about the holidays. Probably similar for many people here in the forum.
Yeah, I'm in a similar situation to Mooly -- I have whatever sound card/codec in my laptop (it's not good, I promise, even by my poor standards. 😀) and HD280 pro headphones.
That's okay. I would still be interested to know if like Mooly, if you listen very carefully, if you notice any difference between any of the files. No difference at all would seem maybe a little odd from my perspective, but it is possible.
And it would still be interesting to know about if that were the case.
Also, we might be able to figure out what DAC and headphone amp is in your laptop and see if your listening results seem to make sense in view of whatever the hardware is.
I wonder how upset wife will be if I steal the USB DAC from her desk at work (long story) and setup my electrostatic headphones in the kitchen...
Mark, I'll give it a good whirl tomorrow (on battery, as I do notice decent amount of hash plugged in) I'm lucky enough to spend this evening hanging out with the family. 🙂
My laptop is an HP 8440p, and the chipset is an elusive IDT HD Audio. Tempo Semiconductor now operates their audio business, but I cannot pin down what chipset it is, nor her performance. http://temposemi.com/products/pclaptop-hd/
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I downloaded the HP audio driver for the 8440p, and opened it with 7-zip. The STWRT.INF file seems to suggest that the part might be one of these: AC?97 Codecs Tempo Semiconductor as there are some references to "STAC."
If you check the vendor ID and product ID in windows, that might help pin it down a little more. There are some sites that try to compile lookup tables to interpret those numbers. Some resources are: How To Find Unknown Device Drivers By Their Vendor & Device ID
USB ID Database - The SZ
PCI Vendor and Device Lists
http://www.linux-usb.org/usb.ids
The vendor number for IDT is 0x111D for example
Hi Mark, I downloaded your files, took one listen through and then went off to see family for Christmas and have not returned to the test, but I do intend to.
Impression from that quick listen is that tamborine is maybe not optimal for this kind of test, also I was not able to ensure that OS resampling was/was not happening.
I do have a favorites band's album recording downloaded as 44k/24bit and when converted to 44k/16bit I do hear differences.
I can post some of these songs to Dropbox for sharing with permission from the band.
My father and I yesterday had a listening session to the treated/oem usb cable transferred files, and straight up he had no problem in describing the differences when played on his system.
Dan.
Optimal? I don't know. Mooly seemed to think there was something. Let's see what others report. If you do get a chance to get back to it, we would like to hear from you whatever you find. Thanks!
And if you have some files we can listen to that would be good. I would just try to make sure the dithering is done properly so we don't have complaints it wasn't. You know.
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Mark -- here's the best I can divine from digging around the IDT driver files.
92hd75b3x5 datasheet & application note - Datasheet Archive
(Look on page 28)
92hd75b3x5 datasheet & application note - Datasheet Archive
(Look on page 28)
Yeah, I was thinking something more 'continuous' to get a longer listen, less sparse and 'transient' for now, admittedly this critique is from an at the very last minute run through before I disappeared for christmas dinner.
If you still have the stems of something cleanly recorded you could add tambourine into the mix for a better listen for changes in a more complex context.
I am currently fighting resampling configuration issues between the player softwares on my Android phone that I am using when I connect a OTG usb dac.
The guys have just arrived back in Perth so I will ask in the next few days.
Considering the way the tracks I have in mind were recorded I am sure Mike will get a laugh out of any such debate and gladly give the go ahead.
We can agree on an audio editor and specify/compare dithers or other 'processing'.
I can keep a Dropbox folder for these files.
Dan.
Edit: I have choices of Reaper, Cool Edit, Audacity, Foobar and associated dithers processing from 44k/24bit to 44k/16bit.
Dan.
Dan.
Relative to AB test tracks, from pg 31.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/everything-else/169484-what-wrong-op-amps-431.html#post4922941
""
The results also indicated that listeners could be emotionally affected by music in cases where others chose to play music or where the music could not be avoided. Yet, in the music episodes that managed to arouse an emo- tion, it was most common that the music was familiar and self-chosen, thus highlighting the possible role of personal choice in musical emotions. In contrast, whatever effects of age, gender, or music education that may exist were not large enough to yield significant correlations in the fairly small listener sample featured in Study II. This might also explain why many of the correlations between prevalence and personality in Study I were not rep- licated in Study II – except for a significant correlation between overall pre- valence and Extraversion.
Perhaps the most crucial finding in Study II was that the prevalence of specific musical emotions depended on several features of the situation. In particular, different social contexts tended to evoke different musical emo- tions. For example, some emotions such as happiness-elation, pleasure- enjoyment, and anger-irritation often occurred in ‘social’ settings whereas others such as nostalgia-longing and sadness-melancholy occurred often in ‘solitary’ settings. This highlights the need to use representative samples of situations to obtain valid estimates of the prevalence of specific musical emotions.
In summary, Study II confirms that emotional responses to music depend on complex interactions between the listener, the music, and the situation.
""
So it appears that self chosen music yields best null test. If true would make magazine/mfgr/journal shoot-outs worthless. We all probably knew that anyway.
-bruce
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/everything-else/169484-what-wrong-op-amps-431.html#post4922941
""
The results also indicated that listeners could be emotionally affected by music in cases where others chose to play music or where the music could not be avoided. Yet, in the music episodes that managed to arouse an emo- tion, it was most common that the music was familiar and self-chosen, thus highlighting the possible role of personal choice in musical emotions. In contrast, whatever effects of age, gender, or music education that may exist were not large enough to yield significant correlations in the fairly small listener sample featured in Study II. This might also explain why many of the correlations between prevalence and personality in Study I were not rep- licated in Study II – except for a significant correlation between overall pre- valence and Extraversion.
Perhaps the most crucial finding in Study II was that the prevalence of specific musical emotions depended on several features of the situation. In particular, different social contexts tended to evoke different musical emo- tions. For example, some emotions such as happiness-elation, pleasure- enjoyment, and anger-irritation often occurred in ‘social’ settings whereas others such as nostalgia-longing and sadness-melancholy occurred often in ‘solitary’ settings. This highlights the need to use representative samples of situations to obtain valid estimates of the prevalence of specific musical emotions.
In summary, Study II confirms that emotional responses to music depend on complex interactions between the listener, the music, and the situation.
""
So it appears that self chosen music yields best null test. If true would make magazine/mfgr/journal shoot-outs worthless. We all probably knew that anyway.
-bruce
I guess I am a little confused about the point you are trying to make.
If you AB two songs and ask someone which one someone likes better, affect and emotion would be expected to have a great influence.
On the other hand, if you AB two pieces of the same song with different distortion as ask people which one has more detailed cymbal sounds, its not clear to me how much effect either affect or emotion has on the outcome.
Maybe you could explain a little more what you are getting at?
(Note: For those not familiar with the term as used here, the word affect, as in "affect display," is a psychological term for something like emotion, but more brief and less intense, and that does not rise to the degree of a full fledged emotion. Unlike emotions, people usually aren't aware of affective reactions, and can't describe experiencing them. They are something more like instinctive reactions. But they occur quite frequently, and influence behavior and preferences among other things.)
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The short answer ( i like short answers ) is for a valid op-amp test, in the context we are looking for, must null out any prior listening memory. This is impossible.
The test should omit human interaction as in any other hardware measurement. That would include biomedical measurements.
At this point, I'm leaning towards some set of rules based on fft and music theory.
THD is included but in 2nd or 3rd place.
The test should omit human interaction as in any other hardware measurement. That would include biomedical measurements.
At this point, I'm leaning towards some set of rules based on fft and music theory.
THD is included but in 2nd or 3rd place.
Actually, such effects can decay fairly rapidly. In most cases, they go away completely in less than two minutes. And we are all influenced in such ways multiple times every day without ever being aware of it. However, in some cases the effects can be eliminated entirely by asking to the test subject to consciously disregard them.
In the context of AB audio testing it would take some research to find out how much of a problem it may or may not be, and if determined to be a problem, how it might be minimized or eliminated.
Of course, there are some things that a single exposure to can have long lasting effects. Sticking one's finger into an energized light bulb socket would be a good example of something like that.
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