What is wrong with op-amps?

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#1,724
Kirchhoff said:
This is to avoid that a self-interested operator could knowingly rig the test in favour of his favorite opamp. Subtle things like sitting in front of a speaker to muffle sound, keeping his hand on the terminals to introduce extra noise, mismatching volume etc.

In the medical world you can easily rig blood pressure readings by keeping subjects more stressed or more relaxed, allowing more or less settling time before/between the reading(s) etc.
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WTF are you talking about??

"sitting in front of a speaker"??
Seriously?
say what??

Assume no dishonesty - after all SY (or you) is sitting right there, and you'd catch any sleight of hand.

Apparently you folks don't get it at all.
I'd RATHER have all the opamps sound the same.
It's a royal PIA if and when they don't.

We're talking about swapping two chips - opamps - probably in a follower circuit. NO OTHER CHANGES.

This is a fun merry-go-round. Try a LINEAR path instead?
 
#1,726
DPH said:
And it's a useless question to ask until audibility has been established, no?
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I am also sceptical about most supposed audible differences, but that being said, I think something can be better or worse than something else without the difference being audible. In fact I think it is a misconception to think that anything that changes the signal to an inaudible extent is necessarily acceptable; in the end you want unintended artefacts of the complete audio chain to be inaudible, which means that the artefacts of each piece of equipment in the chain have to stay far below the threshold of audibility rather than just below it.

By the way, I know from experience that single blind tests are crap. It is very easy to give clues by body language even when you try not to do so.
 
#1,727
Poor Bear '-) He has to put up with all this 'stuff'. First, I agree with Bear that the best silver wire is the best in the world so far. I have been very disappointed with silver plated copper wire. There are a number of reasons that could be why, but I will not use it in my best designs, because it usually sounds bright. It is therefore either the best silver (approved by Bear) or the best copper that I can find, for either internal hookup wire, or for cables. Break-in of the wire is mandatory.
Breaking News: There are two recent articles from the AES that give useful info on the sonic differences between op amps out there. More later.
 
#1,730
MarcelvdG said:
I am also sceptical about most supposed audible differences, but that being said, I think something can be better or worse than something else without the difference being audible. In fact I think it is a misconception to think that anything that changes the signal to an inaudible extent is necessarily acceptable; in the end you want unintended artefacts of the complete audio chain to be inaudible, which means that the artefacts of each piece of equipment in the chain have to stay far below the threshold of audibility rather than just below it.
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Yes, good point, Marcel--one of the biggest advantages we as DIY'ers have is that we can define the entire playback chain if we desire, and thus evaluate it from an end-to-end perspective.
 
#1,735
Kirchhoff said:
Bear, let's have it the other way round. Why does it matter for you to know which opamp model you're inserting in the socket?
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I do not "need to know" which is which - except to the extent that I can discern between several 8 legged black DIP chips, which need to be replaced in pairs, given that this is a stereo (2ch) system.

For all I care you can cover them in black paint pen, then put a colored dot or whatever label you wish on them... write it in runes or other ancient scribe.

As I said I can have an illiterate "non-documented worker" do the swap, behind a curtain, wearing white gloves. Don't care.

Either you hear it or you don't - as I said if it is too subtle to be sure, then that's a different question (for a different thread).

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Let me make myself perfectly clear, at the risk of pizzing orf almost everyone. MOST systems are far from being "blameless" or "natural" sounding. (trying to be diplomatic) WHY that is, is part of the reason to have this and other discussions, including the technical merits in the main.

At present I'd rate my own system as at about maybe 85% of what is possible. Less than I would like, and less than other incarnations I've owned (this is a new, different, system at a different location, fyi - rather minimalist, but fun)

So, IF your frame of reference is the "median" or "mean" of all "good systems" - those being what you might hear at a salon or at a show (to use examples that everyone more or less has access to) then perhaps that's your standard. IF so, I understand why one might have difficulty comprehending. After all, one would first have to have a much much better point of reference with which to compare.

Or, if your experience is that you or someone you know has a system that sounds so much better than what I just mentioned, then great, please share with us here or privately via PM just what that is. I want BETTER.

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Let me add something here, that is related. The best system(s) have the following characteristics:

- you don't hear any speakers or notice them playing - sound is merely in the room, spontaneously. To add to that, one might think "someone ought to move those boxes (panels, whatever) out of the way, as they might be blocking the sound!"

- when the volume is increased or decreased there is NO SENSATION OF LOUDNESS. All that happens is that the apparent distance to the "stage" changes, as if your seat was on railroad tracks and you could move at will front and back. Just as it does in a live venue (one without excess PA/SR) the apparent size of the sound also grows (as you walk toward or away from the stage).

I've been at a fair number of shows, quite a rage of home systems of various sizes, the number of times that I've heard one that does what I just described is likely zero. But I have heard this, in a real system - without the "benefit" of "mental enhancers". It is possible. But frankly, it's not going to come into "being" given the sound that I hear coming through all of the opamp based gear that I have heard to date - I'm more than ok with finding out that A) it's not the opamps, it's something else other than or B) that someone did it.
 
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#1,740
bear said:
As I said I can have an illiterate "non-documented worker" do the swap, behind
- you don't hear any speakers or notice them playing - sound is merely in the room, spontaneously. To add to that, one might think "someone ought to move those boxes (panels, whatever) out of the way, as they might be blocking the sound!"

- when the volume is increased or decreased there is NO SENSATION OF LOUDNESS. All that happens is that the apparent distance to the "stage" changes, as if your seat was on railroad tracks and you could move at will front and back. Just as it does in a live venue (one without excess PA/SR) the apparent size of the sound also grows (as you walk toward or away from the stage).
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You're probably looking for better speakers. I can't afford those that do that, but I found some headphones that fit the bill. Akg 550. As a bonus they work well with a large range of amps. No they don't measure well nor are they stereophile approved. Pas assez cher, mon fils.
 
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